Previously the "Convince me Allen won't suck" thread, now the... "you're welcome" thread

[PolishDave]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Congrats on defaulting to a lazy argument instead of considering the point of the post.  Does his completion percentage need to improve?  Yes.  Can it?  Absolutely; guys do it all the time in the NFL.  Josh McCown was a 51% passer in college; he completed 67% of his passes last year.

 

What I want to know is if you actually watched the kid?  When does he have accuracy issues?  When he's under immediate duress, and when his footwork gets leaky trying to rush the ball to the perimeter--are those fatal flaws, or can they be corrected?

 

Let's go man, put a reasonable argument together that doesn't amount to "COMPLETION PERCENTAGE!!1!!1!1!!"

 

Are we really condemning the kid to doom because he was 1% less accurate in college than Matthew Stafford and 3% less accurate in college than Carson Palmer?

 

Josh Allen could end up being the best QB out of this draft.   It might take a few years of seasoning for him to get there, but the potential is there.

 

I have no problem with the Bills taking this guy if they believe he will be the best.    All we can really do is trust McDermott and Beane to make the right decision about whomever they draft or pass on at whatever spot they are able to draft from.    They need to get it right.

 

Behind a decent offensive line - Allen could end up being a superstar.

[SoTier]

49 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

If we don't move up and he is there at 12, we better grab him or it will haunt Bills fans for a long time. Maybe

 

Like the Bills finding JP Losman still on the board at #22 so they had to work a trade to "grab" him? 

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

I'm not sure that this is proof that he's consistently accurate, but thanks for showing us some of the highlights. All the film I've watched has been the complete game film, but seeing some of his highlights all together like that is so much fun. Simply put, on his good days, he can make throws that no other QB in this draft class would even attempt to make, for better or worse.

 

Good post; indeed, I watched every throw I could three times over, and your last sentence captures it perfectly: when he's right, he's easily the best QB in this draft--and it isn't close.  You need him to be on his game more consistently than he was in college, but I find his faults to be correctable.

 

The more I dig into him, the more I become convinced that he's got a real shot...to the point where I won't be upset if Buffalo ends up with him one way or another.

 

Now, I still think he's going to go either 1 to Cleveland or 3 to NYJ.

Edited March 22, 2018 by thebandit27

[McBean]

The hype with Allen reminds me of Gabbert situation a few years ago.

 

Gabbert had a somewhat decent college career at a power 5 school.

 

Allen was horrible at Wyoming...Wyoming!!!

[Ramza86]

I think Allen would be an interesting prospect....like....I saw like 5 videos of "all the throws".

 

Hes not as bad as the people that are hating on him say....but hes def not as good as the scouts think.

 

Passing on some premiere talent for Allen early in the draft I think is dumb....if he drops and youre in a good position to not hurt if he doesnt pan out, I think you pull it.

 

The scouts see all the physical tools......and see the potential....but is the team that drafts him gonna be the team to mold him into the QB they think he can be?

 

Hes gotta be in a great situation to have a chance to improve. If this guy goes on a crappy team/system/oline I think hes gonna bust.

[Mickey]

 

 

In the end, all our debate here is over which of us is better at predicting the future. And if any of us could do that accurately, we would live in Vegas.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Mickey

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, McBean said:

The hype with Allen reminds me of Gabbert situation a few years ago.

 

Gabbert had a somewhat decent college career at a power 5 school.

 

Allen was horrible at Wyoming...Wyoming!!!

 

This isn't even close to being an accurate take--it's not even hyperbole; it's laughable.

1 minute ago, Ramza86 said:

I think Allen would be an interesting prospect....like....I saw like 5 videos of "all the throws".

 

Hes not as bad as the people that are hating on him say....but hes def not as good as the scouts think.

 

Passing on some premiere talent for Allen early in the draft I think is dumb....if he drops and youre in a good position to not hurt if he doesnt pan out, I think you pull it.

 

The scouts see all the physical tools......and see the potential....but is the team that drafts him gonna be the team to mold him into the QB they think he can be?

 

Hes gotta be in a great situation to have a chance to improve. If this guy goes on a crappy team/system/oline I think hes gonna bust.

 

True, but that's also true of 90% of QB prospects nowadays.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

19 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Congrats on defaulting to a lazy argument instead of considering the point of the post.  Does his completion percentage need to improve?  Yes.  Can it?  Absolutely; guys do it all the time in the NFL.  Josh McCown was a 51% passer in college; he completed 67% of his passes last year.

 

What I want to know is if you actually watched the kid?  When does he have accuracy issues?  When he's under immediate duress, and when his footwork gets leaky trying to rush the ball to the perimeter--are those fatal flaws, or can they be corrected?

 

Let's go man, put a reasonable argument together that doesn't amount to "COMPLETION PERCENTAGE!!1!!1!1!!"

 

Are we really condemning the kid to doom because he was 1% less accurate in college than Matthew Stafford and 3% less accurate in college than Carson Palmer?

 

If you're not accurate at Wyoming. You're not going to be accurate in the NFL. It's as simple as that. You're pointing to Matt Stafford as the one QB who's had okay success at the NFL level but completely ignoring the long list of guys who've completely flamed out. 

 

The Buffalo Bills are not in position to take a chance on a flier like Josh Allen especially considering the cost that it's going to take. 

[DCOrange]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

Your last sentence captures it perfectly: when he's right, he's easily the best QB in this draft--and it isn't close.  You need him to be on his game more consistently than he was in college, but I find his faults to be correctable.

 

The more I dig into him, the more I become convinced that he's got a real shot...to the point where I won't be upset if Buffalo ends up with him one way or another.

 

Now, I still think he's going to go either 1 to Cleveland or 3 to NYJ.

 

Yeah, I don't disagree. I think Darnold and Allen are the top 2 on both Cleveland, New York, and Buffalo's big boards but we'll see how it all shakes out in a month!

2 minutes ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

 

If you're not accurate at Wyoming. You're not going to be accurate in the NFL. It's as simple as that. You're pointing to Matt Stafford as the one QB who's had okay success at the NFL level but completely ignoring the long list of guys who've completely flamed out. 

 

The Buffalo Bills are not in position to take a chance on a flier like Josh Allen especially considering the cost that it's going to take. 

 

Why not?

[thebandit27]

Just now, FeelingOnYouboty said:

 

If you're not accurate at Wyoming. You're not going to be accurate in the NFL. It's as simple as that. You're pointing to Matt Stafford as the one QB who's had okay success at the NFL level but completely ignoring the long list of guys who've completely flamed out. 

 

The Buffalo Bills are not in position to take a chance on a flier like Josh Allen especially considering the cost that it's going to take. 

 

You continue to harp on a fallback argument and ignore the data.  I've mentioned more than Stafford as examples (Palmer, McCown, Matt Ryan), but hey, if you're stuck on "COMPLETION PERCENTAGE!!1!!1!1!!" as your argument and have no interest in actually scouting the kid, then cool, just say so and I won't discuss him with you.

 

Let's make it all about the %age; we'd much rather have guys that completed nearly 67% of their passes in college like Tim Tebow and EJ Manuel.

[HappyDays]

30 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Are we really condemning the kid to doom because he was 1% less accurate in college than Matthew Stafford and 3% less accurate in college than Carson Palmer?

 

I don't care about completion percentage. I care about his awful ball placement, mechanics, and field vision.

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't care about completion percentage. I care about his awful ball placement, mechanics, and field vision.

 

Show me and we'll discuss it, because I've shown examples of the opposite in this thread.

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, Mickey said:

 

 

In the end, all our debate here is over which of us is better at predicting the future. And if any of us could do that accurately, we would live in Vegas.

 

No I'm unsure about most QBs going in the 1st round. Not Josh Allen. I am sure he will be a bust. If I could make a living betting against every 1st round QB like him I would. No one with his scouting profile has lasted, not in this millennium.

[corta765]

I don't believe in him either, but here is the case I would make about why he could be successful based off those who have countered me:

 

-Excellent tools and good leader which helps commanding an NFL offense. If you can get his completion percentage even to just 62% your looking at a real stud for QB

-Matt Stafford has a similarly low completion percentage and rounded out quite nicely

-The way Tyrod could use his legs to create a great play Allen's arm is so talented that he can make throws literally most QBs can't solely off of that which create plays that otherwise wouldn't exist. There are clips of this available.

-A team like Buffalo has a talented running game that would take a lot of pressure off of him having to carry the team for the first year or two. Plus Dabol is regarded as an OC that makes the most with the talent he has, he doesn't try to force a scheme like Dennison

-His supporting cast was far worse in his final year at college with a lot of drops and players who couldn't get open enough to make the catch. With a better supporting cast he would see an uptick in all stats though that may include INTs.

-Played in a pro style offense so would have a faster transition to NFL

-Projecting QB's is an impossible art. His size and talent compares to players like Farve & Wentz, but it also compares to players like Jake Locker & EJ Manuel. Even with his flaws your truthfully don't know and Buffalo does offer an offense that has a decent enough line and running game that would take the pressure off early regardless of fan expectations. Remember Tyrod and the Bills were 31st in passing, even if we move up to just 23rd in passing would the team be worse or better? I think it would be a better personally.

 

Overall to me its boom or bust. He could be Carson Wentz, big tall passer with loads of talent that develops into a stud or EJ Manuel who has the same physique but never could get the accuracy or mental sign in check to be a true QB. Personally I'd take Rosen, Darnold, or Mayfield any day over Allen.

[ALLEN1QB]

Just listening to Charlie Weis on Sirius Radio he said Mayfield is by far the best quarterback available this year

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

 

I watch this and I can not be convinced he sucks yet I can not say he'll be great nor suck at the next level as many can't base college play transitioning to the next level? 

 

if they were to pick him I would support him and hope he would he would succeed as the bills future starting QB?

 

note: I realize it is one play and not enough to give any real assessment but the same can be said at the next level since he has yet to take a snap in the nfl.

 

bottom line, he doesn't suck.

Edited March 22, 2018 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[HappyDays]

9 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Show me and we'll discuss it, because I've shown examples of the opposite in this thread.

 

You've shown a few examples of good throws. I'm talking about the overall trend. I could go find that Eliot Crist Twitter thread, it's pretty open and shut. He will not suddenly fix his terrible ball placement and decision making when the game is moving 10 times faster. It's never happened before. I have to think that if Mahomes and Allen bust we'll stop seeing these kinds of QBs get drafted high.

[JohnC]

28 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 

Josh Allen could end up being the best QB out of this draft.   It might take a few years of seasoning for him to get there, but the potential is there.

 

I have no problem with the Bills taking this guy if they believe he will be the best.    All we can really do is trust McDermott and Beane to make the right decision about whomever they draft or pass on at whatever spot they are able to draft from.    They need to get it right.

 

Behind a decent offensive line - Allen could end up being a superstar.

If the Bills moved up to the #2 spot and the choice was between Allen and Rosen whom do you think they would select? I think it would be Rosen but would have no problem with Allen. I wouldn't be surprised if the Jets had the same decision to make they would select Allen. If the Giants stayed pat and decided to take a qb and Darnold was off the board I think they would take Rosen. If I had to guess of the top four qbs I would say that Mayfield is the most likely to slide. 

 

If you look at the qb situation in Buffalo with McCarron, the Giants with Eli, the Jets with McCown and Bridgewater there is no compelling reason  to immediately put him on the field. In each situation it is likely he will be given the time to better prepare for the rigors of the pro game. 

[Rockinon]

Funny. I am not thrilled about Allen either, but then again, I said the same thing about Ben Roethlisberger. Wish picking a QB wasn't such a crap shoot.

[HappyDays]

18 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Let's make it all about the %age; we'd much rather have guys that completed nearly 67% of their passes in college like Tim Tebow and EJ Manuel.

 

Yep this is why I don't care about completion percentage at the college level. Manuel was exactly the same type of prospect and failed the same way Josh Allen will fail.