For all who want to trade up so bad

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Or draft Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott, Russel Wilson, Nick Foles, Jimmy Garroppolo, etc outside round 1

Cousins & Foles aren't franchise QBs who cannot elevate talent around them....Good enough to keep in in QB purgatory

Prescott & Jimmy G - let's see how the next season or so goes. Neither are great at this point

Your down to Brees, Brady and Wilson. Brees & Brady were taken in times were QBs were not as valued as much as they are today. That leaves Wilson...meh

 

[Tcali]

3 hours ago, terrytate said:

 

Teams that have traded picks to get their qb in the top 5.

 

1. Wentz. worked out

2. Goff   worked out

3. Eli worked out

 

If all those teams can give up picks to get a qb and be competitive so can we.  

 

u should talk to some giant fans....eli was pretty bad for a long time. yes he turned into joe montana during 2 playoff runs later on.but overall he is just an above avg QB.

[dezertbill]

Based on the Jimmy Johnson Draft chart, the Colts received 2540 of value PLUS a 2nd round pick next year for the 3rd, which is 2200 value.

 

For the Bills to match that, they would have to give up both first rounders, the last 2nd rounder, the first third rounder, plus a 2nd next year (2585 value).

 

That is 5 potential starters for your QB.  

 

The Chart shows the Giants 2nd round pick value at 2600.  So by the chart the Bills could give up both first rounders and both 2nd rounders (2690) for the 2nd overall.

 

I think there are a few things in play here.  First off the Bills may want a guy to BE THERE at 2 or 4 prior to pulling the trigger.  Secondly, now that the Colts set the market the 2nd overall pick may be too expensive for their blood  

 

SOOOOO...

 

Do I believe the Bills are going to go all in with McCarron and Peterman?  No.

 

I believe the Bills might be like "hey, our guy may fall down to 4,5 or even 6.  They may have deals set with those teams.  They also may have a deal in play with Eagles for Foles, only giving up, say the 22nd pick overall.  This gives them the 12th, 53, 56, 65, and 96th pick out of the top 100 (plus keep next years 2nd) to draft players who (from the Tre White and Dion Dawkins picks) may be able to start.

 

I truly believe that Beane felt why trade up to 3rd and give up ALL OF THAT when the guy they really covet may not be there.  That's a smart GM.

 

I think this is a fluid situation that involve a couple of scenarios that Beane is preparing for.  

 

At the end of the day, if the Bills only give up 22 for Foles and they draft the future with rest of the picks that's not a bad move.  

 

Either way, if there is any GM in this team's history I would have faith to make the right call, it's Beane

[RochesterRob]

58 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Very simple:  You could have all-pros at all the bolded positions, and it still doesnt matter if you dont have a Franchise QB.

 

This is exactly what the Bills have proven over the last 20 year experiment.

 

 

 

Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Ben Rothlisberger, Eli Manning...

 

All are the Franchise QBs from 10-15 years ago. All are with their long time teams. Only Brees moved, ONCE, and that was the team decision.

 

All the more recent guys like Newton, Wilson, Wentz, etc will all re-sign with their teams.

 

The only one to really leave has been Cousins, and that is because the Redskins FO will screw up anything.

 

When you have a Franchise QB, they stay on the roster.

  I still would place all the names you mentioned in the category of good luck.  In that their teams when contract time rolled around were still SB contenders.  Maybe we are contenders when it comes time for our guy to re-up or maybe we are rebuilding with a SB caliber team chasing our guy.  Further, you assume that a QB won't taper off due to health or injury before the 10 year mark.  It's nice to image once we get out guy we can pencil him in for 15 years but that by no means is a guarantee.

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, dezertbill said:

Based on the Jimmy Johnson Draft chart, the Colts received 2540 of value PLUS a 2nd round pick next year for the 3rd, which is 2200 value.

 

For the Bills to match that, they would have to give up both first rounders, the last 2nd rounder, the first third rounder, plus a 2nd next year (2585 value).

 

That is 5 potential starters for your QB.  

 

The Chart shows the Giants 2nd round pick value at 2600.  So by the chart the Bills could give up both first rounders and both 2nd rounders (2690) for the 2nd overall.

 

I think there are a few things in play here.  First off the Bills may want a guy to BE THERE at 2 or 4 prior to pulling the trigger.  Secondly, now that the Colts set the market the 2nd overall pick may be too expensive for their blood 

The didn't want to shoot their wad on pick 3, but there are no guarantees they can get pick 1 or 2. You also have to think that the giants do not want to go from 2 to 12.. We have to sweeten that pot...

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

This is a very poor take

 

Because which thing isn’t corrrect? 

 

The rams having the same playoff run as the bills or wentz being out the last third of the eagles games? 

 

See people want to gloss over results that don’t fit into their their narrative. Doesn’t make them untrue 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Nick Foles and the Super Bowl mvp selection committee.

 

Am I still harping on results as if that’s what counts?  

 

You left out the results they have had since drafting Wentz.

 

They won't make a guy who doesn't finish the season the MVP.  But you are diverting off point, again.  Who else is questioning the payoff/value/results of the Wentz pick except you?

 

Can you cite any other analysis that concluded that, since he got injured and they won without him, the Wentz pick wasn't worth the "cost"?

 

4 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

He had ONE.GOOD.YEAR.  Chip Kelly came into the NFL in 2013 and was supposed to be the best thing since white bread, and Nick Foles came out of nowhere as a sophomore to be his poster boy ... until the DCs around the league figured out what Kelly was doing and how to stop it.  Foles was lousy in Philly in 2014 as Kelly's smoke and mirrors game was stifled.  He was traded to St Louis as part of the Sam Bradford trade and sucked.  He turned up in KC in 2016 as a backup, and signed with Philly in 2017 as a backup.

 

 

 

 

 

The point was that he isn't a nobody.  He's no Glennon.  He has had success.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Mr. WEO

[dezertbill]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

The didn't want to shoot their wad on pick 3, but there are no guarantees they can get pick 1 or 2. You also have to think that the giants do not want to go from 2 to 12.. We have to sweeten that pot...

if it's worth it, yes.

 

But Beane may think if the guy we really want isn't there we can get Foles plus keep all of our picks, that's better for the short term AND long term of the franchise.

 

I would agree with him on that.

[Reed83HOF]

30 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Because which thing isn’t corrrect? 

 

The rams having the same playoff run as the bills or wentz being out the last third of the eagles games? 

 

See people want to gloss over results that don’t fit into their their narrative. Doesn’t make them untrue 

Just want to make sure we are talking about the same people & teams:

 

1.) Carson Wentz PHI QB

 

 

2.) Jared Goff LAR QB

 

 

3.) For calibration puposes:

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

16 minutes ago, dezertbill said:

if it's worth it, yes.

 

But Beane may think if the guy we really want isn't there we can get Foles plus keep all of our picks, that's better for the short term AND long term of the franchise.

 

I would agree with him on that.

 

For me personally we haven't as a franchise sold out and gone after who we determined was "our" QB since what 1983 and JK wasn't even our first choice in RD 1....We historically and recently have never aggressively attacked that position - that is my problem...We keep kicking the can or taking who is there...

[billsfan_34]

6 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

The majority of posters seem to want to employ a strategy of trading most of our picks for the right to draft "a franchise QB".

 

The Jets just made a move that almost ensures additional years of losing football with a young QB playing short handed with a weak roster and all the expectations in the world.  No offensive weapons to use, poor offensive line, holes all over the front 7 on defense.

 

The Bills are now in a position to do the opposite, draft to fill the roster with young cost-controlled players to add to the talent base they have.

 

Six picks in the first 96. Chance to get QB, LB, CB, DT, OL and WR.  Why would you choose the pathway the Jets are taking which pretty much ensures competition with the Dolphins for last place in the AFC East.

 

Love to read your thoughts on this.

Truth! I couldnt agree more. Sit tight at 12, see what falls our way and have faith in AJ. We can add quality to this roster right now with rookie contracts to boot. 

[Turk71]

So many experts on this board, a lot of you guys missed your lot in life and should definitely be put in charge of an NFL franchise. Having opinions is one thing, but the commitment and conviction some of you have as you vehemently express them and ridicule all the idiots who don't agree is awe inspiring. We are not worthy.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Turk71

[Boatdrinks]

21 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

For me personally we haven't as a franchise sold out and gone after who we determined was "our" QB since what 1983 and JK wasn't even our first choice in RD 1....We historically and recently have never aggressively attacked that position - that is my problem...We keep kicking the can or taking who is there...

I'd wager that far more teams have found QBs successfully by taking who is there when their pick comes up rather than agressively " attacking" anything by moving up in the draft. 

[BigBuff423]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Agree except for Jackson better than Vick.

 

I don't think they are even close.

 

Fair enough and to each his own....but i would like to point out, Jackson’s in-pocket development was significant from last year to this, and his determination to learn how to avoid running too quickly, is something that Vick didn’t truly ever get but it did get better basically as his body demanded him to...just throwing that out there for food for thought.

[Reed83HOF]

26 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

For me personally we haven't as a franchise sold out and gone after who we determined was "our" QB since what 1983 and JK wasn't even our first choice in RD 1....We historically and recently have never aggressively attacked that position - that is my problem...We keep kicking the can or taking who is there...

This also does not mean to be stupid...

4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I'd wager that far more teams have found QBs successfully by taking who is there when their pick comes up rather than agressively " attacking" anything by moving up in the draft. 

We had 2 shots last year and deferred. Watson looked good for a bit and Mahomes, well Andy Reid threw out Alex Smith and built what looks to be a very talented offense around him...We kicked the can and decided we wanted to go to the playoffs, traded TT and now have to be aggressive in finding the guy. We cannot afford to be passive this time...If we are, those who fail  to understand history are doomed to repeat it...

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, RPbillsfan said:

The majority of posters seem to want to employ a strategy of trading most of our picks for the right to draft "a franchise QB".

 

The Jets just made a move that almost ensures additional years of losing football with a young QB playing short handed with a weak roster and all the expectations in the world.  No offensive weapons to use, poor offensive line, holes all over the front 7 on defense.

 

The Bills are now in a position to do the opposite, draft to fill the roster with young cost-controlled players to add to the talent base they have.

 

Six picks in the first 96. Chance to get QB, LB, CB, DT, OL and WR.  Why would you choose the pathway the Jets are taking which pretty much ensures competition with the Dolphins for last place in the AFC East.

 

Love to read your thoughts on this.

 

Agreed, and also for some reason people around here seem to think 2 teams ahead of us are a lock for a QB, but I just don't see it...thats Giants and Broncos.  Right now, the only 2 teams locked on a QB are Cleveland and Jets IMO.  

 

- Giants:  Retooling around Eli to make a push.  They are much more likely to take help and IMO will 100% take Barkley if he is there at 2 still.  

 

- Broncos:  They are already had bridge options on that team for cheap in Trevor and the other young QB Elways is said to still like.  If they plan to take a QB at #5, then signing Keenum was a mistake and dumb from a cap perspective, and Elway isn't dumb.  They are going to draft D at 5 IMO and look to get back into the postseason with Keenum.  Otherwise, they would not have signed him and would have just let Trevor or the other kid hold the seat until the rookie won the job.  

 

Other than that, there is no one else ahead of us that is for sure taking a QB.  Miami is believed to maybe be looking at a QB too, but from what I hear about the Tanny restructure is that it actually locks the Fins into him the next 2 years now and that they are eyeing a DT like Vita at 11 to fill the gaping hole at DT.  

 

So, it is quite possible that 3 of the top 5 QB's will be on the board at 12 if Beane covets one of them, and at worst there should be at least two.  Likely Lamar, and either Baker or Allen (or both).  And Beane could always do a cheap move up to 7, 8, 9, or 10 to get ahead of Fins if he feels he needs to because someone he covets is there.  

 

And if 3 QBs are still on the board, would not shock me at all to see Beane take a stud LB like Roquan or Edmunds at 12 then see what QB is there at 22.  

 

I personally do not think Beane will move into the top 5, nor do I think he should anymore.  I would love to land either Baker or Lamar at 12 and still have all our other picks.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

There are far more examples disproving the “gotta draft a franchise qb high at any cost to win” mantra thanthere is validating it. 

 

the giants are the only team I can think of that can say it worked for them. 

Eagles ?

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

But the bills went just as far in the playoffs as the rams with a fifth round cast off... sigh alright your right Carson Wentz won the playoff from IR.

 

i give up. Beane if you don’t trade every pick for the next 5 years to draft matt leinart or Robert Griffin I’m so done with this team 

Nothing personal but you may be the worst debater on this site. Just  Keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. 

6 hours ago, terrytate said:

 

Wentz had to throw every chance he got because no one saw him.   Darnold was playing on national television every game.  

Never mind Terrytale just beat 29 years for worst debater

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

I don’t understand the question then. 

 

Is wentz good- seemed like it till he blew out his knee and became a cheerleader 

 

did the eagles win the championship- yes

 

did Wentz have something to do with it- partially 

 

was it worth the future collateral they traded- TBD

 

Would wentz have won the Super Bowl- don’t know

 

Will he be able to carry the team once they shed talent without the replenishing picks- unknown

 

There is no conclusion on wentz. His story isn’t yet written. He made some nice plays. He’s not won a playoff game in two seasons as a pro despite being a #2 overall. Same is true of #1 Foles.

 

maybe the gotta trade into the top 5 crowd should follow the jets. 

Would the Eagles rescind the Wentz trade if given the option to go ack in time. Of course not Great trade. One of the best trades in years.

5 hours ago, inaugural balls said:

Where would he be acceptable?

On the Jets

[stinky finger]

51 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

This also does not mean to be stupid...

We had 2 shots last year and deferred. Watson looked good for a bit and Mahomes, well Andy Reid threw out Alex Smith and built what looks to be a very talented offense around him...We kicked the can and decided we wanted to go to the playoffs, traded TT and now have to be aggressive in finding the guy. We cannot afford to be passive this time...If we are, those who fail  to understand history are doomed to repeat it...

In your mind, what pick do we need to rise to and what price (picks) are you willing to pay?

[SoTier]

55 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

For me personally we haven't as a franchise sold out and gone after who we determined was "our" QB since what 1983 and JK wasn't even our first choice in RD 1....We historically and recently have never aggressively attacked that position - that is my problem...We keep kicking the can or taking who is there...

 

First off, that wasn't the way the Bills operated under Ralph Wilson's ownership.  Profit was always more important than winning.  I think that after some fumbling around, the Pegulas seem to have decided that they want to build a winner.  Commitment to winning means that the team's brain trust has to draft smart, including not picking a QB just to pick a QB.  We don't know which QBs, if any, the Bills FO covet enough to move up. 

 

We assume that the Bills traded Glenn in order to move up to then trade up from there, but maybe they just traded Glenn because they liked the idea of picking 12th rather than 21st.

 

32 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

I'd wager that far more teams have found QBs successfully by taking who is there when their pick comes up rather than agressively " attacking" anything by moving up in the draft. 

 

You'd win.  If you count Goff and Wentz as hits, there are 3 real successes from trade up including Eli currently.  OTOH, teams that found their guys by staying put are NE (Brady), Pittsburgh (Roethisberger), Green Bay (Rodgers), Atlanta (Ryan), Detroit (Stafford), Carolina (Newton), Cincinatti (Dalton), Indy (Luck),  Miami (Tannehill), Seattle (Wilson), Jacksonville (Bortles), Oakland (Carr), Tampa Bay (Winston), Tennessee (Mariota), and Dallas (Prescott).  So, currently, 15 teams found their current starting QBs by drafting them when their picks came up.  Only 3 traded up to draft their QBs.

 

28 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

This also doe

s not mean to be stupid...

We had 2 shots last year and deferred. Watson looked good for a bit and Mahomes, well Andy Reid threw out Alex Smith and built what looks to be a very talented offense around him...We kicked the can and decided we wanted to go to the playoffs, traded TT and now have to be aggressive in finding the guy. We cannot afford to be passive this time...If we are, those who fail  to understand history are doomed to repeat it...

 

Maybe the Bills deferred because they didn't like the QBs available.  Mahomes and Watson have made all of 8 starts in the NFL together.  The jury is still out on them.