SoTier Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 42 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said: The Rams and Eagles say otherwise. You get your QB when you can. With that said this is a deep QB class and who knows what can happen. 41 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: There are far more examples disproving the “gotta draft a franchise qb high at any cost to win” mantra thanthere is validating it. the giants are the only team I can think of that can say it worked for them. The only trade ups for QBs that have worked for more than a single season is the Giants trading for Eli. Philly might be another team to have success based on their miraculous 2018 season, but there's no denying that they have one of the most talented teams in the NFL AND one of the most innovative coaching staffs. The Rams might be a third successful trade up story but one great season from Goff doesn't make him a great QB. Lots of QBs had one great season before flaming out, including Josh Freeman, Colin Kaepernick, Brock Osweiler, Nick Foles, and RG III. All the other times teams traded up to grab first round QBs, the trades produced busts. That includes JP Losman in 2004, Jason Campbell in 2005, Mark Sanchez and Josh Freeman in 2009, and Robert Griffin III in 2012. 20 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said: Watch Mike White be the best quarterback to come out of this draft. That would be funny. Especially if we stay put at 12 and 22 and keep our extra 2nd and 3rd. It would be hilarious ... and sadly, entirely possible. The first round rated QBs in this class seem to be more pretenders than real deals. As more college teams abandon pro-style offenses, it gets harder to judge just what prospects can do. That makes first rounders riskier, and 2nd and 3rd rounders more likely to be hits if they're given the opportunity to play. Derek Carr is easily the best QB from the 2014 QB class. Mike Glennon is better than either of the 2013 QBs taken before him (Manuel and Geno). Russell Wilson is easily the best QB from 2012, and even Kirk Cousins has developed into at least as good a QB as Andrew Luck, who may have the most talent but hasn't developed as a pro as well as Wilson or Cousins. 4
cd1 Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bangarang said: I don’t think the Jets or their fans will care too long about what they gave up if it means they have a legit franchise QB for the next 10-15 years. Funny thing is... One becomes a "Franchise QB" because someone caught the balls he threw because he did not get sacked or chased all over kingdom come. Having a good running game also helps keep the defense at bay. In other words - no one becomes the "franchise guy" without having a good supporting cast. Edited March 18, 2018 by cd1 3
CuddyDark Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, terrytate said: Of course they did, but there was not a lot of tape on him. Good lord are you joking with me. Darnold has been discussed as the first overall pick all year. Mayock said in that article that "he may be a first rounder" And I said Darnold is the only one as talented. He still has bigger issues than all three you listed. He's only a sophomore. He has bad mechanics. He's refused to workout and throw. He's roughly 20? You have to project him more than Wentz as a player and as a person. Will he continue to grow? You can't know any of the answers on Darnold. But again I would take him first overall in this draft. In the draft with Wentz and Goff I'd take Darnold 3rd behind those two. 1
stinky finger Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 49 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said: Watch Mike White be the best quarterback to come out of this draft. That would be funny. Especially if we stay put at 12 and 22 and keep our extra 2nd and 3rd. Come on. Pick up a newspaper. If we don't take one of the Fab 4 we're doomed.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, terrytate said: you knwo what i mean, RG3 had a lot more wrong with him than just his knee. Sure. Just referencing that may cite RG3 knee as the Turing pint in an otherwise the promising looking career of a second overall QB. And Wentzs knee is reportedly severely jacked up. Wentz looked way better than RG ever did. Wasn’t suggesting otherwise.
WideRightRevenge Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 Wentz College Stats (remember d2) .. funny as I have been pouring over the same stats from the top 6 in this draft ... but with all the Wentz commentary in this thread ... I went back and grabbed his ... these numbers don't blow you away. 4 years declining completion percentage ... but he obviously panned out ... my point is I was down on Allen for below .. but maybe he just needs to be put in the right system ... ala Wentz with Doug "the QB" whisperer Peterson ... problem is ... not sure Daboll or McD is that person. Josh Allen College Stats Passing Year School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate 2015 Wyoming MWC SO QB 2 4 6 66.7 51 8.5 8.5 0 0 138.1 *2016 Wyoming MWC SO QB 14 209 373 56.0 3203 8.6 8.3 28 15 144.9 *2017 Wyoming MWC JR QB 11 152 270 56.3 1812 6.7 6.9 16 6 127.8 Carson Wentz College Stats Passing Year School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate 2012 North Dakota State MVC FR QB 8 12 16 75.0 144 9.0 11.5 2 0 191.9 2013 North Dakota State MVC SO QB 11 22 30 73.3 209 7.0 7.6 1 0 142.9 2014 North Dakota State MVC JR QB 16 228 358 63.7 3111 8.7 8.8 25 10 154.1 2015 North Dakota State MVC SR QB 7 130 208 62.5 1651 7.9 8.7 17 4 152.3
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Agree except for Jackson better than Vick. I don't think they are even close. Which way?
Solicurance Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 Stack the OL and give AJ some time in the pocket for him and it will create bigger holes for McCoy... enough said... AJ could prove himself to be a great QB...
Mr. WEO Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Can’t. It’s to be determined. His contribution to the eagles success is entirely debatable and the impact of the picks they surrendered won’t be determined until they sustain success with him underpinning it. But at least he bolstered your probowl percentage with a sympathy nod despite being on crutches ? That's an entirely unique take. Who else besides you is debating that premise? 5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Sure. Just referencing that may cite RG3 knee as the Turing pint in an otherwise the promising looking career of a second overall QB. And Wentzs knee is reportedly severely jacked up. Wentz looked way better than RG ever did. Wasn’t suggesting otherwise. RG3 recovered from his injury. HE was just not a good NFL QB. He and Wentz share nothing in common.
Bangarang Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 13 minutes ago, inaugural balls said: Where would he be acceptable? 2nd round 10 minutes ago, cd1 said: Funny thing is... One becomes a "Franchise QB" because someone caught the balls he threw because he did not get sacked or chased all over kingdom come. Having a good running game also helps keep the defense at bay. In other words - no one becomes the "franchise guy" without having a good supporting cast. Finding the guy who can turn into a franchise guy is a lot harder than finding quality o lineman and good receivers. If you have the chance to get one then I’m fine with it
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 15 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Sure. Just referencing that may cite RG3 knee as the Turing pint in an otherwise the promising looking career of a second overall QB. And Wentzs knee is reportedly severely jacked up. Wentz looked way better than RG ever did. Wasn’t suggesting otherwise. That rg3 rookie year was all smoke and mirros. Shanahan was unbelievable that year.
ghostwriter Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said: The Rams and Eagles say otherwise. You get your QB when you can. With that said this is a deep QB class and who knows what can happen. The Bills didn't beat up on the Dolphins in the 90s because Kelly was a better QB than Marino. We beat up on the Dolphins because we had the superior team. We have the opportunity to build a powerhouse. We could walk away with an elite LB, DT, C and add a speedy WR plus depth at OT and CB. The Jets will have the better QB for sure, but we will have the better team 10x over. 2 3
WideRightRevenge Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 1 minute ago, NewDayBills said: The Bills didn't beat up on the Dolphins in the 90s because Kelly was a better QB than Marino. We beat up on the Dolphins because we had the superior team. We have the opportunity to build a powerhouse. We could walk away with an elite LB, DT, C and add a speedy WR plus depth at OT and CB. The Jets will have the better QB for sure, but we will have the better team 10x over. Great Point 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, NewDayBills said: The Bills didn't beat up on the Dolphins in the 90s because Kelly was a better QB than Marino. We beat up on the Dolphins because we had the superior team. We have the opportunity to build a powerhouse. We could walk away with an elite LB, DT, C and add a speedy WR plus depth at OT and CB. The Jets will have the better prospect at QB for sure, but we will have the better team 10x over. Love this point with one minor tweak. if Rosen get concussed out in year 2 week 5 because of his Bledsoe’s like mobility and concussion history, well I like our guy over a 54 year old McCown 24 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: That's an entirely unique take. Who else besides you is debating that premise? Nick Foles and the Super Bowl mvp selection committee. Am I still harping on results as if that’s what counts? Edited March 18, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood 1
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said: The Rams and Eagles say otherwise. You get your QB when you can. With that said this is a deep QB class and who knows what can happen. Their is no Wentz or Goff in this draft, the only QB worth trading up for is Mayfield. After rewatching a ton of college football games I think the two QB's that end up being good starters will be Baker Mayfield and Luke Falk.
SoTier Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 34 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: You didn't answer my question. You keep restating the result we all saw. Foles isn't a guy off the street by the way. He had success with a very different Eagles teams several years ago. He had ONE.GOOD.YEAR. Chip Kelly came into the NFL in 2013 and was supposed to be the best thing since white bread, and Nick Foles came out of nowhere as a sophomore to be his poster boy ... until the DCs around the league figured out what Kelly was doing and how to stop it. Foles was lousy in Philly in 2014 as Kelly's smoke and mirrors game was stifled. He was traded to St Louis as part of the Sam Bradford trade and sucked. He turned up in KC in 2016 as a backup, and signed with Philly in 2017 as a backup. Foles has only had success in a certain kind of offense, one that features lots of read/pass options. In order for him to have success with Philly after Wentz went down, the coaches had to install and use plays that suited his style. That suggests he's probably unlikely to have long term success in the NFL as a starter. He is what he is: a good backup QB. 30 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said: There are so many ways to fill out a roster and we have so many dead drafts where we have nothing to show. I really can’t understand why people over value draft picks the way they do. It wouldn’t take our whole draft to move to 1, but just to show the extreme. If we traded our ENTIRE draft for #1 and took Darnold, we would still be fine. And better off today then we were at any point in recent memory. The QB is just a different thing all together. The Jets will be fine and we will look terrible if they get one of the 2 very good QBs. We have plenty of picks. Trading up was the only way to go IMO. If we arent going up, why were we so quick to move all those good players last year? We did that to get the best qb. Not the best guy left after the good ones are gone. What IF the QB they choose is a bust? The last time the Jests traded up into the top 5 to grab a "franchise QB" they picked Mark "Butt Fumble" Sanchez on whom they wasted about 6 years before they realized the dud they had. The Bills wasted 4 years on JP Losman and the opportunity to draft Aaron Rodgers while the Packers drafting at #24 the next year had him fall into their laps. What did Washington's trade up for RG III net them after 2012? Zilch. Good thing they spent that fourth rounder on a backup QB named Cousins or they'd really be up the creek. It's less about where a team drafts than about the team's staff being smart enough to "know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em". 20 minutes ago, Putin said: He was a going for MVP before getting hurt , and BTW I’m pretty sure we’d give up 3 maybe even more 1st round picks for another Carson Wentz Except, a team has to know if they're actually getting Carson Wentz 2.0 or just Mark Sanchez 2.0 in a Carson Wentz mask. 15 minutes ago, inaugural balls said: Where would he be acceptable? Rudolph in the 2nd round seems about right. 1
The_Dude Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 If they don’t credibly fix the QB position this year I’m done. I’m done. I’m 33 and I’m done wasting my time on this ****. 1
Success Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 After seeing what we need to trade to get to 2, I’m praying we don’t. 2 months ago, many felt that Darnold should absolutely stay another year. Rosen and Mayfield have their own question marks. There is no Luck or Manning in this draft. Stay put, draft Jackson if he’s there, and build a team.
SoTier Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, NewDayBills said: The Bills didn't beat up on the Dolphins in the 90s because Kelly was a better QB than Marino. We beat up on the Dolphins because we had the superior team. We have the opportunity to build a powerhouse. We could walk away with an elite LB, DT, C and add a speedy WR plus depth at OT and CB. The Jets will have the better QB for sure, but we will have the better team 10x over. The Jests MIGHT have the better QB. Historically, most draft classes have yielded 1 quality starting QB with occasional classes yielding a second decent starter. Most starting QBs, even supposed franchise QBs, resemble Jay Cutler, Andy Dalton, Joe Flacco or Ryan Tannehill more than they do future HOFers like Brees, Rivers or Rodgers. Obviously, a lot of Bills fans, especially the advocates of trading up at any cost, have failed to consider that about half of all first round QB prospects are more likely to bust than become franchise QBs by any reasonable definition. 10 minutes ago, The_Dude said: If they don’t credibly fix the QB position this year I’m done. I’m done. I’m 33 and I’m done wasting my time on this ****. Adios. Arrividerci. Au revoir. Sayonara. 2
ghostwriter Posted March 18, 2018 Posted March 18, 2018 19 minutes ago, SoTier said: It's less about where a team drafts than about the team's staff being smart enough to "know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em". This x10. Don't draft a QB just to draft one, if the top 4 are gone by 12, move on and draft Vita Vea or Roquan Smith imo. 2
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