The Colts' #3 Pick is Very Much in Play - Acquired by the NYJ

[JohnC]

This year the Bills have assets to move up and make a deal to get a qb. Those people who argue that the Bills should use their accumulated picks to bolster the roster at the risk of losing a high end qb prospect are essentially arguing let's wait and give up an opportunity to take advantage of an opportunity that doesn't come around very often for this historically middle of the pack franchise. There are a variety of reasons why we should take the plunge this year. One is that we accumulated picks for the expressed purpose of flipping those assets to get a qb. Another reason is this drat year has at least three, maybe four, high end prospects so we have options to select from. What happens if the build a good roster and then the qb draft class is barren like the EJ draft class? There was not one top shelf qb prospect in that class. 

 

If an organization that hasn't had a franchise qb in nearly a quarter of a century is in a position to address the qb position and passively let's that opportunity go by that is not only a mistake but also an act of malfeasance.  

6 minutes ago, sleeby said:

Some of you guys sound like drunken fools at a casino or strip club.  Let us hold your keys and money before you go and lose everything.    

If you are going to risk losing a lot at least lose it for an important  purpose. 

[Reed83HOF]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 What happens if the build a good roster and then the qb draft class is barren like the EJ draft class? 

We go 7-9 or 9-7 again is my guess and people get fired and we start over...

[DefenseWins]

27 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

true, but i've heard an indy beat writer on wgr saying they were staying put and taking chubb, stating their no.1 need was pass rush.

 

And you believe that the Colts are gonna tell some beat writer about their actual draft day plans? For that matter can you ever recall Chris Brown being the 1st to announce anything of this kind that the Bills have ever done? This is "LIEING TIME". Believe nothing you hear about anything until it is officially announced. That would be my advice...

Edited March 9, 2018 by DefenseWins

[MrEpsYtown]

27 minutes ago, KingRex said:

To me it still seems like it would be a likely critical TEAM building error for this Bills squad to trade away much in terms of critical draft resources to get one allegedly franchise QB.  The Bills appear to be doing a great job attracting FAs like Davis and Ivory to fill some of the basic gaps on this team.  however, the model Pittsburgh pursued in building a great team first and then acquiring a rookie QB talent like Big Ben to win the SB makes a lot more football sense than following the Andrew Luck model of draft your franchise talent like Andrew Luck and build around him.

 

I'm not arguing we don't need a franchise talent QB to win it all, I'm just arguing that the Pitts model of franchise QB acquisition makes more sense than the Luck model if you have to mortgage our NEED to fill the gap (gaps more accurately) at DT, LB (again gaps), #2 WR, OL, for the franchise QB to lead them to the promised land.

 

You fill gaps with free agents like Ivory and Davis, but you need to draft that franchise quarterback. Filling gaps gets you 8-8 every year. 

 

My argument would be that the Bills have tried to do this over the past twenty years or so. The only time they really tried to get a quarterback was JP Losman and EJ Manuel. JP was like the 4th or 5th best quarterback in quarterback stacked draft. EJ was what they deemed to be the best guy in a crap draft for quarterbacks. Problem was that he was also crap. 

 

Many people want to draft Mason Rudolph, a clear drop off from the top guys in this draft. That would be the Losman strategy. Some people want to wait till next year, which is shaping up to be a crap quarterback crop, aside from maybe Drew Lock. This would be the Manuel strategy. 

 

Remember that stacked Jim Schwartz defense? The team still sucked. You need a franchise quarterback. With two first round picks and a good crop of quarterbacks, now is the time to make the move. This team just made the playoffs. We have a good team with no quarterback. In 2003, the Steelers had an ok team with a no quarterback. That team went from 6-10 to 15-1 and AFC Championship because of the quarterback. 

[DallasMac]

17 minutes ago, JohnC said:

This year the Bills have assets to move up and make a deal to get a qb. Those people who argue that the Bills should use their accumulated picks to bolster the roster at the risk of losing a high end qb prospect are essentially arguing let's wait and give up an opportunity to take advantage of an opportunity that doesn't come around very often for this historically middle of the pack franchise. There are a variety of reasons why we should take the plunge this year. One is that we accumulated picks for the expressed purpose of flipping those assets to get a qb. Another reason is this drat year has at least three, maybe four, high end prospects so we have options to select from. What happens if the build a good roster and then the qb draft class is barren like the EJ draft class? There was not one top shelf qb prospect in that class. 

 

If an organization that hasn't had a franchise qb in nearly a quarter of a century is in a position to address the qb position and passively let's that opportunity go by that is not only a mistake but also an act of malfeasance.  

If you are going to risk losing a lot at least lose it for an important  purpose. 

Well said

[Reed83HOF]

6 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

You fill gaps with free agents like Ivory and Davis, but you need to draft that franchise quarterback. Filling gaps gets you 8-8 every year. 

 

My argument would be that the Bills have tried to do this over the past twenty years or so. The only time they really tried to get a quarterback was JP Losman and EJ Manuel. JP was like the 4th or 5th best quarterback in quarterback stacked draft. EJ was what they deemed to be the best guy in a crap draft for quarterbacks. Problem was that he was also crap. 

 

Many people want to draft Mason Rudolph, a clear drop off from the top guys in this draft. That would be the Losman strategy. Some people want to wait till next year, which is shaping up to be a crap quarterback crop, aside from maybe Drew Lock. This would be the Manuel strategy. 

 

Remember that stacked Jim Schwartz defense? The team still sucked. You need a franchise quarterback. With two first round picks and a good crop of quarterbacks, now is the time to make the move. This team just made the playoffs. We have a good team with no quarterback. In 2003, the Steelers had an ok team with a no quarterback. That team went from 6-10 to 15-1 and AFC Championship because of the quarterback. 

Foles! I want Foles!

[PIZ]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Phins are hot for him....

 

Who are we hot for? 

[aristocrat]

just give em all this years draft picks and none next year. fill our holes with free agents. 100 mil in space next year and all the picks. so what if we get our qb and then are in cap heaven and draft pick heaven? if we suck we still get a high pick

[26CornerBlitz]

5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Foles! I want Foles!

 

Folds or Fool's gold is more like it. 

[Augie]

1 hour ago, thebandit27 said:

 

That makes two of us...though I'd throw Mayfield in there too.

 

 

 

I’m not a big draft prognosticator, but I’ll bet one of those 3 guys will be available at #3. I  just have a strong gut feeling about it. 

 

 

 

.

5 minutes ago, PIZ said:

 

Who are we hot for? 

 

Mostly school teachers and nurses, it seems. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Augie

[Chuck Wagon]

Cousins going to Denver (or even the Jets or Browns) would be huge. It could put 2 / 3 / 5 / maybe even 4 into play.  I think any of those teams would love to move down to add several pieces considering the "blue chip (or lack thereof)" talent in this draft.  They could be shopping us on the best deal instead of us trying to beat out other teams for one particular pick.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Foles! I want Foles!

 

 

That's something the Browns would do.

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Chuck Wagon

[MrEpsYtown]

16 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Foles! I want Foles!

 

That would be the "Rob Johnson" strategy...but at least Foles won a Super Bowl and has had success in the past...not just one or two games. 

[Beast]

2 1sts, a 2nd, next years 1st and Cordy.

 

Do it now.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Binghamton Beast

[KingRex]

23 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

You fill gaps with free agents like Ivory and Davis, but you need to draft that franchise quarterback. Filling gaps gets you 8-8 every year. 

 

My argument would be that the Bills have tried to do this over the past twenty years or so. The only time they really tried to get a quarterback was JP Losman and EJ Manuel. JP was like the 4th or 5th best quarterback in quarterback stacked draft. EJ was what they deemed to be the best guy in a crap draft for quarterbacks. Problem was that he was also crap. 

 

Many people want to draft Mason Rudolph, a clear drop off from the top guys in this draft. That would be the Losman strategy. Some people want to wait till next year, which is shaping up to be a crap quarterback crop, aside from maybe Drew Lock. This would be the Manuel strategy. 

 

Remember that stacked Jim Schwartz defense? The team still sucked. You need a franchise quarterback. With two first round picks and a good crop of quarterbacks, now is the time to make the move. This team just made the playoffs. We have a good team with no quarterback. In 2003, the Steelers had an ok team with a no quarterback. That team went from 6-10 to 15-1 and AFC Championship because of the quarterback. 

The debate is not whether you get your franchise QB through the draft or FA, the debate is when do you use the draft to acquire your franchise QB.  Pitts used a method of build your team FIRST  and then use the draft to acquire a player like Big Ben as your franchise QB, or alternately you draft your franchise QB and build around him (I have been calling this the Andrew Luck model).

 

Looking at the actual real world situation, I simply argue that though real world prospects like Darnold or one of the Josh's look like good players, I am quite doubtful any of these prospects are drop dead certain winners.  If you or others want to make the case for one of these prospects I'm sure I and others would love to see it.

 

to me not only are none of these prospects merely good but not great, but that even a great prospect would have a hard time leading this team which needs 1 (or 2) DTs, 2 LBs, an  OL starter, and a couple of other  players away from having a quality young team means that by far we need to take advantage of the 2 mid-round 1sts, and 2 seconds to build a winning TEAM.  I see us making the same mistake we made for  17 playoffless years if we overreach at QB (drafting TC in the 2nd, giving guaranteed $ to the injury prone RJ, rushing JP along, etc ).

 

Employing the Pitts model of shooting to get 2 or 3 first year starters from our 4 1st and 2nd round picks this year makes more sense to me than banking on a good but not great franchise QB prospect leading a teamn with several critical gaps.

 

Why do folks think that we are so great?

[Chuck Wagon]

18 minutes ago, Binghamton Beast said:

2 1sts, a 2nd, next years 1st and Cordy.

 

Do it now.

 

 

Massive overpay

 

More like #21 / #22 / #96 / 2019 2nd / Glenn

 

16 minutes ago, KingRex said:

The debate is not whether you get your franchise QB through the draft or FA, the debate is when do you use the draft to acquire your franchise QB.  Pitts used a method of build your team FIRST  and then use the draft to acquire a player like Big Ben as your franchise QB, or alternately you draft your franchise QB and build around him (I have been calling this the Andrew Luck model).

 

Looking at the actual real world situation, I simply argue that though real world prospects like Darnold or one of the Josh's look like good players, I am quite doubtful any of these prospects are drop dead certain winners.  If you or others want to make the case for one of these prospects I'm sure I and others would love to see it.

 

to me not only are none of these prospects merely good but not great, but that even a great prospect would have a hard time leading this team which needs 1 (or 2) DTs, 2 LBs, an  OL starter, and a couple of other  players away from having a quality young team means that by far we need to take advantage of the 2 mid-round 1sts, and 2 seconds to build a winning TEAM.  I see us making the same mistake we made for  17 playoffless years if we overreach at QB (drafting TC in the 2nd, giving guaranteed $ to the injury prone RJ, rushing JP along, etc ).

 

Employing the Pitts model of shooting to get 2 or 3 first year starters from our 4 1st and 2nd round picks this year makes more sense to me than banking on a good but not great franchise QB prospect leading a teamn with several critical gaps.

 

Why do folks think that we are so great?

 

 

DTs / LBs / interior olinemen are players who can be found later in the draft and filled through FA.  This was a playoff team with subpar QB play.  The idea that this is some sort of near expansion talent team or that trading up for a QB would completely cripple the team when it comes to draft capital is complete rubbish, so is the notion that needing upgrades in a couple areas (especially at DT and LB) are going to preclude a rookie QB from succeeding.   

Edited March 9, 2018 by Chuck Wagon

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, KingRex said:

To me it still seems like it would be a likely critical TEAM building error for this Bills squad to trade away much in terms of critical draft resources to get one allegedly franchise QB.  The Bills appear to be doing a great job attracting FAs like Davis and Ivory to fill some of the basic gaps on this team.  however, the model Pittsburgh pursued in building a great team first and then acquiring a rookie QB talent like Big Ben to win the SB makes a lot more football sense than following the Andrew Luck model of draft your franchise talent like Andrew Luck and build around him.

 

I'm not arguing we don't need a franchise talent QB to win it all, I'm just arguing that the Pitts model of franchise QB acquisition makes more sense than the Luck model if you have to mortgage our NEED to fill the gap (gaps more accurately) at DT, LB (again gaps), #2 WR, OL, for the franchise QB to lead them to the promised land.

Except that's not really what happened. The two paths were more similar than different. Both teams made the playoffs two of the previous 3 seasons, failing to reach the postseason just prior to drafting their QB. That meant they invested just a single draft pick  in obtaining the player. Both had a fair bit of good fortune in being able to do so. If the Colts were victorious in just one more game in 2011, the Rams may have ended up drafting Luck, with the Colts picking at 2. The Steelers nabbed Roethlisberger with the 11th pick in '04. But Bills GM Tom Donahoe's trade with the Texans for pick 10 was cancelled by HOU at the last minute when CB DeAngelo Hall was picked at #8. The Texans wanted CB Dunta Robinson, and felt the Bills pick at 13  was now a risky move back. With Big Ben gone, the 4th best QB prospect remained on the board.... Tulane's JP Losman. 

  The point is, both the Colts and Steelers rosters were pretty good overall when Luck and Roethlisberger were drafted. The Colts of course were in a unique situation with an injured but established top QB on the team. It's a bit of a stretch to imply that two completely different and intentional " strategies" of team building were employed.  One team building carefully through the draft until targeting a QB when they felt they had a sufficient team needing a finishing touch. The other starting from scratch with a bad team and taking a QB first, which then hampered their ability to assemble a team around him. It's a revisionist and overly simplistic version of how the teams obtained their QB. Sometimes a little good fortune has a big impact, especially when compounded by other choices. At the time of the '04 draft , the broad consensus was 2005 would be a down year for QBs. After his move up bid collapsed , Tom Donahoe made a move to get back in round one and snag JP Losman That left the Bills without a 2005 1st round pick. The pick would have been # 20 and Aaron Rodgers ended up going to the Packers at 24. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Boatdrinks

[billsredneck1]

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

That guy is the equivalent of Chris Brown opining without the benefit of any inside knowledge. 

yeah i kinda figured and it was pre reich fwiw.

[KingRex]

35 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Massive overpay

 

More like #21 / #22 / #96 / 2019 2nd / Glenn

 

 

 

DTs / LBs / interior olinemen are players who can be found later in the draft and filled through FA.  This was a playoff team with subpar QB play.  The idea that this is some sort of near expansion talent team or that trading up for a QB would completely cripple the team when it comes to draft capital is complete rubbish, so is the notion that needing upgrades in a couple areas (especially at DT and LB) are going to preclude a rookie QB from succeeding.   

In the end, I guess I am "the future is now" kind of guy.  In essence, my sense is that were the Bills to trade 2 or 3 potential first year starters (the two firsts and a second which seems to be the going rate for moving up to #3) to move up, we likely are going to have a very bad 2018.  I don't see anyone credibly saying that even if Darnold or one of the Josh's has a good first year, that all of the QB franchise prospects are going to need to do some learning in order to produce some wins.  This is particularly true if we are going to use later round picks to find the DTs/LBs/interior linemen you propose.

 

My sense is that under McD/Beane the process demands building the TEAM for the future AND winning as much as we can now.

 

This team (ironically under the leadership of Tyrod) made the playoffs in 2017.  Its hard for me how these leaders are gonna trade away the reloading draft resources they have acquired to move up in the draft for some potential (but by no means likely like a Luck or Peyton Manning) franchise QB.

 

I think Darnold or the Josh's may well eventually become quality players, but there is a difference between good and great.  Which draftee do you think is so clearly great that he is worth McD giving up on building a winning attitude on this playoff qualifying team because we choose to invest in the future development of some alleges franchise QB rather than rebuild this older and significantly flawed Bills team?

[Chuck Wagon]

20 minutes ago, KingRex said:

In the end, I guess I am "the future is now" kind of guy.  In essence, my sense is that were the Bills to trade 2 or 3 potential first year starters (the two firsts and a second which seems to be the going rate for moving up to #3) to move up, we likely are going to have a very bad 2018.  I don't see anyone credibly saying that even if Darnold or one of the Josh's has a good first year, that all of the QB franchise prospects are going to need to do some learning in order to produce some wins.  This is particularly true if we are going to use later round picks to find the DTs/LBs/interior linemen you propose.

 

My sense is that under McD/Beane the process demands building the TEAM for the future AND winning as much as we can now.

 

This team (ironically under the leadership of Tyrod) made the playoffs in 2017.  Its hard for me how these leaders are gonna trade away the reloading draft resources they have acquired to move up in the draft for some potential (but by no means likely like a Luck or Peyton Manning) franchise QB.

 

I think Darnold or the Josh's may well eventually become quality players, but there is a difference between good and great.  Which draftee do you think is so clearly great that he is worth McD giving up on building a winning attitude on this playoff qualifying team because we choose to invest in the future development of some alleges franchise QB rather than rebuild this older and significantly flawed Bills team?

 

 

Your argument is inherently flawed.  Why does trading for a young QB mean the team is going to be very bad in 2018?

[26CornerBlitz]

Knock Knock!