Chicken Boo Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Not sure how you watch a bunch of game tape and put Mayfield, Jackson, and Allen in the same bin? For different reasons. I think they would benefit from sitting and watching for a while.
H2o Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 Black, white, hispanic, asian, hindi, indian, somoan, I would still say the same exact things. It has nothing to do with race. That card is a bit overplayed as of late. Hell, Randall Cunningham is probably my favorite QB of all time.
PolishDave Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, billspro said: This game highlights a lot of Jacksons negatives. He makes a lot of wow plays as well, which is exciting, but there is no consistency with he accuracy. His inconsistency leads to a lot of mistakes. Well in that video, it is hard to argue against the idea that Lamar Jackson looked like a really good running back who often struggles passing. As with his highlight reels, the guy makes more plays with his feet than he does with his arm. If you take away his elite elusiveness (as time/age will do to this guy soon enough) he very likely won't be able to rely on his average passing ability to remain an NFL caliber player. Most of the other top quarterbacks have more long term upside potential in the NFL than this guy. Seems like he could be useful situationally - like on 3rd and short or gimmick plays. The more I see of him, the more convinced I am that Beane and McDermott don't touch this guy at all. Edited March 9, 2018 by PolishDave
PrimeTime101 Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 16 hours ago, kdiggz said: It can't be because he's just not a very good passer with poor form and accuracy? Has to be racist? Oh boy Agree 16 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said: I disagree that the color of his skin has anything to do with most people’s assessment of him. Most people are siting accuracy issues, low velocity, etc, as issues, not skin color. Totally agree, I am sick and tired of them comparing a project as an NFL to projects in the streets.. White and Black players are considered PROJECT players.. its just a joke.. 16 hours ago, Thurmanator 12074 said: That accuracy issue has been debunked. So many dropped passes he would be right up there as far as the other QB’s so many dropped passes? man you should watch his combine. he would have throws that just don't make it and fall yards short. It was even mentioned that is a problem,, Debunked? I don't think so. 16 hours ago, ndirish1978 said: Accuracy issue has not been debunked. Stats are garbage if you don't accompany them with gametape. Have you actually watched his games? Agreed. 15 hours ago, John from Riverside said: I just dont want to go down the road of making it about race...I really just dont. The guy is loaded with talent and was productive in College.......he got better every year....he was throwing to targets that will not be drafted...... At 21.....I take a chance on this kid. Totally agree., I am sick and TIRED of the race card.
PaattMaann Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 16 hours ago, whatdrought said: I guess my response to the idea that there's racial profiling regarding the QB position is show me one guy who missed a chance simply because of his color? I don't doubt that racism is alive and well (though highly overdone in today's world), but we're talking about a multi-million dollar industry where winning is everything. I grew up watching Culpepper and McNabb and never thought twice about their color. Vick will likely be in the hall of fame some day (would be a lock if not for his issues). Newton still has the chance to win a Superbowl and change his story. I know that black QB's are the minority, but I have yet to see any evidence that that has anything to do with bias and not skill. Also, I don't follow the NBA so I'm not sure what you're talking about. what????? Mike Vick in the hall of fame? For what????? What did he do during his career that would put him anywhere near even a nomination to the hall of fame? His stats certainly don't support it...he barely has more career passing yards than QBs who are in the hall of fame that played in the 1940s!!!!!!! He played in the era of the passing offense, and put up some pretty average stats. Hall of fame!!????
YattaOkasan Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 13 hours ago, The Jokeman said: And if the other QBs dropped passes we're counted wouldn't their stats improve too? Also can drops always be attributed to the catcher? As am sure some of them weren't the b St of passes either. OMFG this has been done. Their numbers did go up. Not as much as Jackson's did (I think Mayfield was second). A third party did the analysis so I think they can be attributed to the catcher. I watched a ton of drops by his guys. I also saw a bunch of plays that could've been made by his guys that were probably not considered drops.
John from Riverside Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, YattaOkasan said: OMFG this has been done. Their numbers did go up. Not as much as Jackson's did (I think Mayfield was second). A third party did the analysis so I think they can be attributed to the catcher. I watched a ton of drops by his guys. I also saw a bunch of plays that could've been made by his guys that were probably not considered drops. The fact that his targets are not considered draftable to me says quite a bit.
YattaOkasan Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: The fact that his targets are not considered draftable to me says quite a bit. Yes but theres a bit of nuance in that argument. Allen has targets that arent draftable but the difference is that Jackson plays in the ACC. But yes I agree Louisville does not seem to have a lot offensive talent (Miss State got to Jackson a lot in the 2nd half of that bowl game).
Mat68 Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 20 hours ago, kdiggz said: It can't be because he's just not a very good passer with poor form and accuracy? Has to be racist? Oh boy Its very simple, to me. Now is it 100% racist? No it is not. Analysts and talking heads talk out of both sides of their mouth. Allen has potential and Jackson is a project. Jackson played in a more advanced offense, played tougher competition and still completed a higher % of his passes than Allen. With Allen, everyone who is a supporter of his points to the level of play surrounding him as a reason for his low completion %. Now this is where is gets interesting, when you adjust completion % for drops Allen only gets a few % point bump and Jackson gets a 10% bump. Jackson's adjusted completion % is second among the top QBs with Mayfield being first. On film you can see why a few of Jackson's balls sail. His feet get too close together. With proper balance he throws with very good accuracy. I dont really see how some can overlook some of Allen's weakness for his strength and with Jackson overlook his strengths to concentrate on his weaknesses. That is point of what they are talking about.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Chicken Boo said: For different reasons. I think they would benefit from sitting and watching for a while. Cop out, Chicken Boo. Stand and deliver: what reasons? If you feel you've already spelled it out elsewhere, link is fine. 4 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: so many dropped passes? man you should watch his combine. he would have throws that just don't make it and fall yards short. It was even mentioned that is a problem,, Elsewhere, I posted a link to the combine workouts of Rosen Mayfield Jackson Allen, and Rudolph. Suggest you watch them with the sound turned off, and roughly in that order (to train your eye to what the passes are supposed to be). Look carefully for WR having to drop low, hesitate in their route or jump. The "mentioned as a problem" by announcers is an issue to me because they seemed to be commenting according to what they expected to see, eg Rosen throws a 'worm burner' while the announcer is groving on how smooth and effortless he is = NBD, Mayfield throws inaccurately high and the receiver can't haul it in "come on, you're 6'2", you should be able to make that catch" etc etc. 3 hours ago, YattaOkasan said: OMFG this has been done. Their numbers did go up. Not as much as Jackson's did (I think Mayfield was second). A third party did the analysis so I think they can be attributed to the catcher. I watched a ton of drops by his guys. I also saw a bunch of plays that could've been made by his guys that were probably not considered drops. IIRC, Rosen and Jackson both had 34 drops (11 and 12%). Mayfield was a bit lower = 8 or 9% and Allen lower still (6 or 7%). The problem with "plays that could have been made but not considered drops" is problematic 'cuz how to compare? Even more subjective than drops. IMO Rudolph had the best WR and OL. Rosen and Allen both played under pressure, and if Jackson didn't play like he was coated in Teflon he would have been Squashed Like a Bug. Edited March 9, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 5 hours ago, PolishDave said: Well in that video, it is hard to argue against the idea that Lamar Jackson looked like a really good running back who often struggles passing. That was a bad game for Jackson, no question. 5 hours ago, PolishDave said: As with his highlight reels, the guy makes more plays with his feet than he does with his arm. If you take away his elite elusiveness (as time/age will do to this guy soon enough) he very likely won't be able to rely on his average passing ability to remain an NFL caliber player. Polish, you know that has to be BS. When a guy has 430 passing attempts and 232 rushing attempts, he's making more plays with his arm than his feet, OK? If he's being considered against other draftee QB who have thrown 452, 404, and 270 attempts, it has to be acknowledged that he's shown enough passing to be evaluated as a QB. He has made as many passes as his peer draftees. Why is this so difficult? I think that's what has people scratching their heads. The "elusiveness" question is strictly tied to "in what way is he elusive?" Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers are still making those little side steps and shoulder ducks and stepping up to make guys miss in their 30s. And yes, sometimes that is the manner in which Jackson is elusive. If he's being elusive by taking off downfield, then you have a point. To my eye most of Jackson's rushes in 2017 were called run plays. The "average passing ability", you got to look at the other prospects too and also say what you mean by that. Is he up with Rosen and Mayfield? IMO, No. Has he demonstrated ability to be more accurate, to throw with anticipation into tight windows in a game than Allen or Rudolph? I would say "yes". Is his arm as strong as Allen? No way. So it depends upon what you mean.
Chicken Boo Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Cop out, Chicken Boo. Stand and deliver: what reasons? This is exhausting. Mayfield is immature and short. He is not ready to lead franchise, in my opinion. If you throw him out there and typical rookie struggles happen, how will he react? Is he going to start grabbing his junk when his passes are constantly getting batted down and opposing teams are in his **** on every play? Respect is earned in the NFL, not given. I do not trust his mental makeup. Allen and Jackson both need to hone their craft. This has been gone over this ad-nauseam, I'm not going to waste my time. Just throwing rookie QBs in the deep end, hoping they can swim, often times, isn't smart.
17 Josh Allen Posted March 9, 2018 Author Posted March 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said: This is exhausting. Mayfield is immature and short. He is not ready to lead franchise, in my opinion. If you throw him out there and typical rookie struggles happen, how will he react? Is he going to start grabbing his junk when his passes are constantly getting batted down and opposing teams are in his **** on every play? Respect is earned in the NFL, not given. I do not trust his mental makeup. Allen and Jackson both need to hone their craft. This has been gone over this ad-nauseam, I'm not going to waste my time. Just throwing rookie QBs in the deep end, hoping they can swim, often times, isn't smart. So what your saying is we should stand pat and keep Tyrod and draft a bunch of CB’s and Def linemen Right !
John from Riverside Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said: This is exhausting. Mayfield is immature and short. He is not ready to lead franchise, in my opinion. If you throw him out there and typical rookie struggles happen, how will he react? Is he going to start grabbing his junk when his passes are constantly getting batted down and opposing teams are in his **** on every play? Respect is earned in the NFL, not given. I do not trust his mental makeup. Allen and Jackson both need to hone their craft. This has been gone over this ad-nauseam, I'm not going to waste my time. Just throwing rookie QBs in the deep end, hoping they can swim, often times, isn't smart. That does not mean that we should not take a QB even if they do need to hold a clipboard for a while Its a stash pick in this case.
Chicken Boo Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, Thurmanator 12074 said: So what your saying is we should stand pat and keep Tyrod and draft a bunch of CB’s and Def linemen Right ! Show me where I said that? Sorry, I'm not a Mayfield or Jackson sack licker. I never will be. They'll both be busts, in my opinion. 39 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: That does not mean that we should not take a QB even if they do need to hold a clipboard for a while Its a stash pick in this case. I never said not to grab a QB.
John from Riverside Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said: Show me where I said that? Sorry, I'm not a Mayfield or Jackson sack licker. I never will be. They'll both be busts, in my opinion. I predict that none of the top 4 QBs in this draft is going to be busts.
Chicken Boo Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 17 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: I predict that none of the top 4 QBs in this draft is going to be busts. That's bold. I don't see 1983 here.
nbbillsfan Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) point taken. To me, it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with athleticism. It seems counter intuitive, but I get nervous when a QB is too athletic/fast (felt this way about Manziel). When a QB is so dangerous with his legs, he can be elite in HS and college without having to be extraordinary at reading defenses, having supreme accuracy, and anticipating throws and routes. However; These are the things that make consistent pro-bowl QB's. Guys like Tom Brady were never gonna win games with his feet, so from a very young age they had to be elite passers. If there was a QB who was a phenomenal athlete and had all these other qualities it would be a game changer ( some of the young guys in nfl could be that: Dak, Marriotta, Wilson, Watson maybe even Wentz). Maybe Jackson will be that, but who knows. Edited March 9, 2018 by nbbillsfan
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 17 hours ago, TigerJ said: Maybe I could give Rosen a pass, but I think all the other QBs in this draft are to some degree "project QBs" because they have issues that will need to be resolved before they can become top notch NFL QBs. I think Lamar Jackson's biggest issue is developing consistent mechanics. He has excellent mechanics sometimes, but at other times he gets sloppy. That's when his accuracy slips. I would not be disappointed if Buffalo drafts him. He can really get the ball moving when he torques his hips into his throws. But he doesn't do that all the time, only on hard throws over the middle, and long passes. On out routes/when hes on the run he just flicks the wrist sort of like how vick used to throw. Not as much power or accuracy on those - hence the low velocity at the combine.
YattaOkasan Posted March 9, 2018 Posted March 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, nbbillsfan said: point taken. To me, it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with athleticism. It seems counter intuitive, but I get nervous when a QB is too athletic/fast (felt this way about Manziel). When a QB is so dangerous with his legs, he can be elite in HS and college without having to be extraordinary at reading defenses, having supreme accuracy, and anticipating throws and routes. However; These are the things that make consistent pro-bowl QB's. Guys like Tom Brady were never gonna win games with his feet, so from a very young age they had to be elite passers. If there was a QB who was a phenomenal athlete and had all these other qualities it would be a game changer ( some of the young guys in nfl could be that: Dak, Marriotta, Wilson, Watson maybe even Wentz). Maybe Jackson will be that, but who knows. So you didn't watch the video then. Its been stated there and elsewhere that the Jackson has the most relevant experience to NFL offenses. He has been asked to read defenses and has demonstrated an ability to work his way through progressions (check out the cover1 article). He needs to work on his deep ball accuracy but checks most every other box.
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