Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 19 hours ago, Misterbluesky said: JM would have been fine..but he was to lazy to study the playbook. May bees don't fly in September....in other words, we simply don't know that the NFL is an adjustment for QB who are freak athletes with strong arms, and are whiteboard wizards who study hard. 2 hours ago, Nihilarian said: I wrote about the reasons why Allen didn't dominate the lower level of competition and his stats were more about the lack of quality talent around him over any comment on his ability. Uh, huh...and what about the level of quality talent he faced? 2 hours ago, Nihilarian said: How did Allen play in the Senior Bowl where the talent on the defense he faced was far superior to anything he had faced previously? Isn't the Senior Bowl that game where defenses are strictly limited in what they can do? Like they're limited to rushing 4, no blitzes, no 5 man pressures? And a bunch of limitations on the secondary as well? IOW great that he played well, but I'm not sure being a Senior Bowl Hero qualifies a QB for top prospect
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 3 hours ago, BuffaLoko said: On the other hand, Wenz had a few slumps in his first season in NFL... ...hell he would have been a goner in Bflo with the TBD "One & Done Gang" lurking.....
mannc Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 6 hours ago, 1ZAYDAY1 said: Beane already said it.... if they have a guy top 10 and he makes it out, you have to think about moving up to get him.... i think thats the plan. I would believe the FO will have Rosen, Darnold, Allen and Mayfield in their top 10. I think if you see any of those guys make it out of the top 10 the Bills will pounce. And only having to give up 1 of the 2 1st round picks and probably a 2nd and a pick next year. I truly think one of those guys slips, they always do. But all 4 of those guys will go top 15. Totally agree, but it should not cost more than our two firsts to move into the 10-12 range. Look what KC paid last year to move from 27 to 10.
Nihilarian Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, jrober38 said: No one ever questioned Stafford or Cutler's accuracy. Farve played in college 26 years ago. Guys like Allen, whose scouting reports openly question his accuracy, never work in the NFL. You don't go from being an inaccurate QB in the Mountain West Conference to an accurate one in the NFL. It simply doesn't happen. Whoever drafts Allen will get fired in 1-2 years. His accuracy and lack of feel for the game will not result in him being a successful NFL QB. He's the exact same prospect as EJ Manuel or Jake Locker. That's what you're drafting. Both Stafford and Cutler had less than 56% accuracy coming out of college and they both improved as did Tyrod Taylor. Both those QBs improved to 62%. Care to see a chart of pass completion percentage for college players since 1956? https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-cmp-pct-player-career.html Edited March 5, 2018 by Nihilarian
Nihilarian Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 2 hours ago, BigBuff423 said: Regarding the bolded statement, I was actually going to start a brand new thread about this very thing. Because, I'm not convinced Beane and company want to give up a king's ransom for anyone, including a QB. I'm also not particularly sold on them being as "hot" for Rosen as it's been reported and Darnold has too many fundamental issues I just don't think the Bills like. If Allen makes it past the Jets, I do think the Bills look in the 7 to 10 range for any the major 4 QBs - and Allen certainly has the greatest potential. The trade with KC last year was moving from 27th to 10th and Bills received the 27th, a 3rd in the same Draft, and of course 2018 1st. The Bills to move to 10, would have 21/22 which is better than a 3rd and following year's 1st - and can probably sweeten the deal with Glenn or someone else and a 4th. IF, that's the price, THEN I think Beane could make the move because he still keeps his two 2nds and by then will probably have traded Tyrod or others for more picks. To be fair to him, what kind of coaching did he have as a Rookie and then for two years that followed?? Doug and his band of idiots.... I am one who truly believes Coaching makes a world of difference in the NFL (no surprise) but I mean really the defining characteristic of the teams that succeed and the ones that don't. You can look at QB and coaching as the two greatest separators from the haves and have nots....EJ with a better QB coach, better HC, and better OC - and while I doubt he's being fitted for a gold jacket, he's probably still a starter and playing well enough, like an Andy Dalton type. I have so much more faith in this FO and this coaching staff, that if they believe so strongly as to trade UP for Josh Allen, then they know what they're getting, believe they can transform his potential into reality, and will design and scheme a way to make him successful. I believe that. I couldn't agree more on all counts. 1
billieve420 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, BigBuff423 said: Then you're not Drafting ANY of this year's crop of QBs...sorry, Rosen needs work, Darnold's footwork is a mess, Baker Mayfield had about 3 yards of clean pocket to throw from on virtually every play - his passes will be batted down when he's forced to stay in the pocket and he's not an otherwise perfect tactician either, Rudolph is a great QB and I think he does well in the right system but he needs to strengthen his arm a bit and learn an NFL Offense, and Jackson has is own set of warts....no QB is going to be "pro ready"...also, if you don't give the Bills staff the chance to make their mark, they never will.....you have to give Daboll and McDermott and his staff a chance to truly develop the QB....that's the difference. Look at Philly; Wentz was the guy, but he needed to be coached as did Goff...Jameis has fallen off because he hasn't had that effectively....any young QB needs to be developed. Yes but I am more willing to take a chance on a guy who is more developed like Rosen or someone like Mayfield who despite his physical limitation has produced in college than someone like Allen. Allen would be best served to go to a team with a established QB on the roster where he can sit back, learn, and get better. Edited March 6, 2018 by billieve420 1
jrober38 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Nihilarian said: Both Stafford and Cutler had less than 56% accuracy coming out of college and they both improved as did Tyrod Taylor. Both those QBs improved to 62%. Care to see a chart of pass completion percentage for college players since 1956? https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/pass-cmp-pct-player-career.html Matt Stafford's last year at Georgia he completed 61.4% of his throws. Scouts never questioned his accuracy. Jay Cutler's last year at Vanderbilt he completed 59.1% of his throws. Scouts never questioned his accuracy. Josh Allen completed 56.3% of his throws this year in the Mountain West. Every scout openly questions his accuracy. Guys with real accuracy concerns, like Allen, EJ Manuel, Jake Locker, Josh Freeman, Vince Young, JP Losman, Kyle Boller, etc, never work out in the NFL. Like Allen, they can all throw the ball a mile, but they don't have the necessary accuracy to keep the chains moving on a consistent basis. Edited March 6, 2018 by jrober38 1
Nihilarian Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 2 hours ago, jrober38 said: Matt Stafford's last year at Georgia he completed 61.4% of his throws. Scouts never questioned his accuracy. Jay Cutler's last year at Vanderbilt he completed 59.1% of his throws. Scouts never questioned his accuracy. Josh Allen completed 56.3% of his throws this year in the Mountain West. Every scout openly questions his accuracy. Guys with real accuracy concerns, like Allen, EJ Manuel, Jake Locker, Josh Freeman, Vince Young, JP Losman, Kyle Boller, etc, never work out in the NFL. Like Allen, they can all throw the ball a mile, but they don't have the necessary accuracy to keep the chains moving on a consistent basis. Not anymore after the Senior Bowl and Combine. Stafford's three-year accuracy percentage in college was 57.1%. Cutler's four-year accuracy percentage in college was 57.2%. Tyrod Taylor's four-year accuracy percentage in college was 57.2%. Taylor's completion percentage in the NFL now is 62.4. Stafford's completion percentage in the NFL is now 62.0. Cutler's completion percentage in the NFL is now 62.0%. There is a real reason as to why so many draft sites have Allen in the top five to fifteen players in this year's draft. Daniel Jeremiah has Allen going #5 to Denver. Bucky Brooks has him going 11th to the Redskins. Charlie Casserly has him at #15 going to Arizona. Charles Davis has him going #12 to the Bengals. Lance Zierlein has him going #6 to the NY Jets. Chad Rueter has him going #1 overall to Cleveland. Mel Kiper has him going #1 overall to Cleveland. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000917695/article/fourround-mock-draft-allen-goes-no-1-bills-cardinals-trade-up
jrober38 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: Not anymore after the Senior Bowl and Combine. Stafford's three-year accuracy percentage in college was 57.1%. Cutler's four-year accuracy percentage in college was 57.2%. Tyrod Taylor's four-year accuracy percentage in college was 57.2%. Taylor's completion percentage in the NFL now is 62.4. Stafford's completion percentage in the NFL is now 62.0. Cutler's completion percentage in the NFL is now 62.0%. There is a real reason as to why so many draft sites have Allen in the top five to fifteen players in this year's draft. Daniel Jeremiah has Allen going #5 to Denver. Bucky Brooks has him going 11th to the Redskins. Charlie Casserly has him at #15 going to Arizona. Charles Davis has him going #12 to the Bengals. Lance Zierlein has him going #6 to the NY Jets. Chad Rueter has him going #1 overall to Cleveland. Mel Kiper has him going #1 overall to Cleveland. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000917695/article/fourround-mock-draft-allen-goes-no-1-bills-cardinals-trade-up Oh! He looked good throwing the ball in a pair of shorts with no defenders on the field at the combine? I guess his accuracy problems are cured. LMAO EJ Manuel looked good at the Senior Bowl and Combine as well. Then he stepped on an NFL field and his horrendous accuracy came right back, as is the case for every single QB I mentioned who looked great in a pair of shorts, but never displayed adequate accuracy in live games when things actually matter. First round QBs bust more often than they succeed. I couldn't care less where draft sites have him rated. Draft sites who project guys in the 1st round are wrong more often than not. Edited March 6, 2018 by jrober38 1
transplantbillsfan Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 Good God... Colin Cowherd seems to think this is the case, too. I sure hope it's not remotely accurate, but Cowherd today on his show did a top 10 mock draft and predicted the 49ers would trade down with us and we would trade up to #9 to draft Allen. YUCK!!! If we do that to draft Mayfield, however... WOHOO!!!
jrober38 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 Just now, transplantbillsfan said: Good God... Colin Cowherd seems to think this is the case, too. I sure hope it's not remotely accurate, but Cowherd today on his show did a top 10 mock draft and predicted the 49ers would trade down with us and we would trade up to #9 to draft Allen. YUCK!!! If we do that to draft Mayfield, however... WOHOO!!! If we draft Allen I'll throw up. We'd be better off just bringing back EJ Manuel or asking Jake Locker to come out of retirement. 1
transplantbillsfan Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, jrober38 said: If we draft Allen I'll throw up. We'd be better off just bringing back EJ Manuel or asking Jake Locker to come out of retirement. This all just has to be a smokescreen. I really just can't believe a smart NFL GM, as I hope and believe Beane is, would make this mistake again in the same way the Raiders did with Jamarcus Russell or the Titans did with Locker or we did with Manuel or etc.... May field!!! May field!!! May field!!! May field!!! Edited March 6, 2018 by transplantbillsfan
jrober38 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 1 minute ago, transplantbillsfan said: This all just has to be a smokescreen. I really just can't believe a smart NFL GM, as I hope and believe Beane is, would make this mistake again in the same way the Raiders did with Jamarcus Russell or the Titans did with Locker or we did with Manuel or etc.... Agreed. It's unfathomable. From NFL.com. Allen's Negatives: Weaknesses Never had completion rate higher than 56 percent in either season as a starter Accuracy diminishes greatly when he's forced to move his feet May have too much hero in his blood Tries to overcome obstacles with arm talent and makes poor decisions because of it Takes too many chances with low percentage throws Needs to play smarter and place higher value on the ball Fastball pitcher whose touch could use improvement short Will baby the deep throws at times Field-reading is spotty Needs to be more patient in allowing combo routes to develop Would benefit by trading some velocity for better timing Anticipatory throws don't seem to come naturally Pre-snap game plan appears unfocused Breaks from pocket without cause throwing off his timing with receivers Doesn't keep feet "throw-ready" when sliding in pocket Frequently defaults to off-platform throws when there is time to set feet and deliver That's simply not the description of a future NFL franchise QB.
blacklabel Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 The skills are there, just need to be refined. That's one reason I can see the Bills going for him. They can mold him into their vision of a franchise QB. Obviously his arm stands out, as does his completion percentage (for the wrong reasons) but he really had no one decent to throw to plus the guys he had thrown to dropped a lot of passes. He does bail on clean pockets a little too much from what I've seen. He's been a really intriguing prospect to evaluate. I think a lot of people tend to judge him on what they've seen so far, but remember that pro scouts are judging on the potential he shows. They see things that can be corrected and from everything I've read he sounds like a smart, coachable kid. This is why he's going to go pretty early.
sleeby Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 I don't watch college but from what I've read Allen reminds me of what we already have. Tyrod has an effortless deep throw but lacks accuracy in the short and mid range and someone to throw it long to without Watkins on the field and healthy. Let other teams come to the siren's song of the 90yd throw and not us please. OL and WR teams do factor in for QB completion percentage but those are not exactly bright spots on the current Bills roster.
jrober38 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 Just now, blacklabel said: The skills are there, just need to be refined. That's one reason I can see the Bills going for him. They can mold him into their vision of a franchise QB. Obviously his arm stands out, as does his completion percentage (for the wrong reasons) but he really had no one decent to throw to plus the guys he had thrown to dropped a lot of passes. He does bail on clean pockets a little too much from what I've seen. He's been a really intriguing prospect to evaluate. I think a lot of people tend to judge him on what they've seen so far, but remember that pro scouts are judging on the potential he shows. They see things that can be corrected and from everything I've read he sounds like a smart, coachable kid. This is why he's going to go pretty early. You're describing the exact reasons EJ Manuel and Jake Locker went in round 1.
sleeby Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, blacklabel said: Obviously his arm stands out, as does his completion percentage (for the wrong reasons) but he really had no one decent to throw to plus the guys he had thrown to dropped a lot of passes. He does bail on clean pockets a little too much from what I've seen. You just described the 2017 Bills right there.
HiddenInLight Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 Allen is this year's EJ Manuel. He will be throwing balls into the VIP tent by this summer. I hope it's the Brown's or Jests tents though.
jrober38 Posted March 6, 2018 Posted March 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, HiddenInLight said: Allen is this year's EJ Manuel. He will be throwing balls into the VIP tent by this summer. I hope it's the Brown's or Jests tents though. Agreed. They're literally the same prospect. It's mind boggling that some Bills fans want this guy. Same height Same weight Same mobility Big arms Terrible accuracy Terrible awareness Can't throw with touch Doesn't throw with anticipation 1
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