purple haze Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 1 hour ago, MAJBobby said: YES. Because a Franchise QB means more in the NFL than ANY other Position on the Football Field. And with one you do NOT need dominant players everywhere on the field True. But these "franchise" QBs are few. To me, there are legitimately two. Rodgers and Brady. Then you have great QBs who, at one time, were franchise like such as Brees and Roethlisberger or young QBs who are franchise like at times such as Wilson, Newton, Luck before his injury, where you see them carry their teams all else be damned. None of these draftable QBs match that description. None of them are Luck or Manning or Newton coming out, whose physical skill set or football IQs were next level. They all have positives, but their flaws also stand out enough for me to believe they will need heavy assistance. Then maybe they grow into a franchise QB. But I don't see it happening out of the gate without other facets of the team heavy lifting.
MAJBobby Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: You never said anything about "if the package is right in your previous post." Once again I would ask you to stop writing things in the sand. Say what you mean and say it at a time that is appropriate. If you say that the "Browns are going to move pick number 1" I am not going to read your mind to know that you meant that "only if the price is right." They would move out If the package is right. So Beane Build that right package. See how that works 1 minute ago, purple haze said: True. But these "franchise" QBs are few. To me, there are legitimately two. Rodgers and Brady. Then you have great QBs who, at one time, were franchise like such as Brees and Roethlisberger or young QBs who are franchise like at times such as Wilson, Newton, Luck before his injury, where you see them carry their teams all else be damned. None of these draftable QBs match that description. None of them are Luck or Manning or Newton coming out, whose physical skill set or football IQs were next level. They all have positives, but their flaws also stand out enough for me to believe they will need heavy assistance. Then maybe they grow into a franchise QB. But I don't see it happening out of the gate without other facets of the team heavy lifting. And where in any of my posts do i say Draft Rosen we will be in Superbowl Next year?
BringBackOrton Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: You never said anything about "if the package is right in your previous post." Once again I would ask you to stop writing things in the sand. Say what you mean and say it at a time that is appropriate. If you say that the "Browns are going to move pick number 1" I am not going to read your mind to know that you meant that "only if the price is right." Clearly he could've meant, "the Browns will move the pick to the lowest bidder, they hate winning." Edited March 4, 2018 by jmc12290
MAJBobby Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 See just so everyone knows where i am coming from. (Using Rosen because he is who I want) Rosen plays very good for a Rookie, likely will struggle at times but shows flashes of greatness and growth during the season but the team is 2-14. I am excited about the outcome because I can see that we have finally gotten an answer at QB. That is my goal for next year
reddogblitz Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 6 hours ago, Reed83HOF said: That is the only time they have used either a first or second round pick in the draft on a quarterback during those nearly two decades. Don't forget JP.
Reed83HOF Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, reddogblitz said: Don't forget JP. I have been trying to.... Edited March 5, 2018 by Reed83HOF
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 ...just a gut feel, but I see McBeane as a longer term thinking cerebral who not only has 2018 draft capital and FA dollars on his board, BUT also is looking ahead to potential 2019 draft slot board and $89+mil in FA dollars to work with......prudent utilization of draft capital (ie. doubtful on moving up) as well as wisely spent FA dollars could equate to a solid off season (home run would be nice but a 3 bagger is acceptable) with plenty of holes filled......a "repeat 3 bagger" in 2019 both with draft and FA could position this club as a perennial contender for a long time...works for me.....
BuffaloRush Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 7 hours ago, gjv001 said: I would be very surprised to see Beane trade both 1st round picks for a QB. Would not be surprised to see him move for a QB, they covet, who falls to a point that only one 1st round pick and some other mid-level draft compensation is required. I can see him trading. If Beane doesn’t find a QB he’s out of a job. Either way this years draft is going to be huge
RochesterRob Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Sure to Get to 2nd. 2018 Both 1st, Both 2nds 2019 1st, 2nd 2020 2nd Players (if i need some more value to sweeten pot) Hughes Glenn Taylor Just in terms of picks I think you are running a little heavy but for the most part in the ballpark. I would never commit that much capital to just one player. If the year was different with a dozen NFL ready prospects waiting and QB not weighted to the top of the draft then I think I could offer both 2018 1st's, a 2018 second, and a 2018 5th to get up to number 4 or 3 and live with it. That is with my scouts giving glowing reports on a given guy and intel that says two other organizations feel the same way to verify what my guys say by pushing me to that package by making their own offers on picks 3 or 4.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 Just now, BuffaloRush said: I can see him trading. If Beane doesn’t find a QB he’s out of a job. Either way this years draft is going to be huge ...right.....a purely asinine prognostication........why would you belittle yourself with something like this that is meritless?......thoughts like these should be kept private and NEVER revealed....Jesus........
purple haze Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: If you truly end up with a franchise qb, you are getting a guy who can eventually carry a team. Of course, it's a gamble, but one increases the odds drafting a qb early in a good qb draft. Not to single you out, but your post was brief, so I take the opportunity to answer your question more generally. There seems to be an assumption that those of us who want a proactive effort to get a potential franchise qb expect a SB run to immediately follow. I don't think anyone thinks that. Seems to me that you need to make sure the Oline is not a disaster. It would help to add a good wr and #2 rb either through the draft or FA. You don't want to David Carr your shiny, new qb. Then you allow a few years for the qb to become what you hope is a very good qb. This allows time through drafting, trades, and free agency to "fill out the team around him." In short, it's actually prudential to get the young qb now when you have the draft capital and a good qb draft. By the time the team is set up, your qb has hopefully gotten through the growing pains phase. I hear you. My assumption is that some feel drafting a QB early makes him a franchise guy. And I think those types of QBs are very rare, in general, although the term is used often. And without draft capital it is hard for any team to acquire foundational pieces to help a QB ascend, if they can at all. Honestly, I am torn. I understand the desire to get a potential difference maker QB and use assets to do it. But then again, I see all of those picks and think they can set up a strong team for the next 5-10 years. Also, living in SoCal I have seen A LOT of Rosen and Darnold play. I think they are good, but not great. If they played a different position, having the same issues, they would not be top 10 picks at all. Edited March 4, 2018 by purple haze
MAJBobby Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 Just now, RochesterRob said: Just in terms of picks I think you are running a little heavy but for the most part in the ballpark. I would never commit that much capital to just one player. If the year was different with a dozen NFL ready prospects waiting and QB not weighted to the top of the draft then I think I could offer both 2018 1st's, a 2018 second, and a 2018 5th to get up to number 4 or 3 and live with it. That is with my scouts giving glowing reports on a given guy and intel that says two other organizations feel the same way to verify what my guys say by pushing me to that package by making their own offers on picks 3 or 4. You asked my Max. Thats the Max. And I am pretty sure that max is getting me to where i need to be. And with at best hitting on 50% of picks I have up 3.5 players to get 1 (as long as my player falls into the 50% hit). So Net Loss 2.5 players for your Franchise QB. Would you trade 2.5 player any given year for a 15 year top end QB?
purple haze Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 18 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: They would move out If the package is right. So Beane Build that right package. See how that works And where in any of my posts do i say Draft Rosen we will be in Superbowl Next year? I never mentioned Super Bowl next year in my post. I mentioned franchise QBs being rare. I am not convinced Rosen or Darnold will be that at any point in time be it next season or five season from now. Teams drafting QBs in top 10 expect them to play sooner than later, and I don't want to watch the team be bad while a young guy hopefully grows into something. However, as I've said before, I get why folks want the Bills to move heaven and earth to get even the possibility of a stud QB. To me, a team can give up too much.
MAJBobby Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 1 minute ago, purple haze said: I never mentioned Super Bowl next year in my post. I mentioned franchise QBs being rare. I am not convinced Rosen or Darnold will be that at any point in time be it next season or five season from now. Teams drafting QBs in top 10 expect them to play sooner than later, and I don't want to watch the team be bad while a young guy hopefully grows into something. However, as I've said before, I get why folks want the Bills to move heaven and earth to get even the possibility of a stud QB. To me, a team can give up too much. I get what we are saying. But if Rookie year they struggle not concerned with the lack of picks in 2019 if i had to use them in a trade up because I have close to 100M in cap space that offseason
ColoradoBills Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 2 hours ago, NewEraBills said: Well if that's true then if I'm Cleveland I'm trading a 3rd to the Giants and swapping #4 for #2. That way you get the HB and the QB. The Bears last year had to give up 2-3rd round picks and a 4th to move from #3 to #2 to get Trubisky. That being said I agree that Cleveland should move up to get Barkley. 37 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Sure to Get to 2nd. 2018 Both 1st, Both 2nds 2019 1st, 2nd 2020 2nd Players (if i need some more value to sweeten pot) Hughes Glenn Taylor I agree with the amount of picks to get to #2. But that is up to the NYG and not you and me. They might want to trade for less high picks and only move down a few spots and still get an impact player this year. We will NEVER really know what Beane is trying to do to get his QB. Just for fun, let's remember that all-time 1983 QB Draft class with 3 HOF'ers only won 2 Super Bowls.
RochesterRob Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: You asked my Max. Thats the Max. And I am pretty sure that max is getting me to where i need to be. And with at best hitting on 50% of picks I have up 3.5 players to get 1 (as long as my player falls into the 50% hit). So Net Loss 2.5 players for your Franchise QB. Would you trade 2.5 player any given year for a 15 year top end QB? OK. You have 7 picks and a 50 percent hit rate giving you 3.5 players as I understand it. I guess I would have the mindset that I could beat that rate realistic or not. Then I would have to weigh that against who might be there at 21 and 22 such as Payne or Price (pre-injury). Then I would have to consider the benefit of what each player would bring. Payne might translate to shorter time of possession for the opponent along with the opponent punting deeper in their own territory giving our offense a shorter field. I guess in short that I am more comfortable with more dimensions to work with so I would rather have Payne and whoever else in the first and possibly second rounds. I get that you see it differently but in my mind I can't get to where you are. We are just going to see it differently and in the end it won't matter as Beane is not going to ask either of us about what to do.
John from Riverside Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 3 hours ago, NewEraBills said: It sure is. Let me ask a question in return. What kind of players are you going to need on offense to build an offense that will "score a ton?" 6th highest scoring offense in the league 2 years ago.....under Tyrod Taylor (and I think Lamar Jackson could give you those same strengths while STILL throwing for more TDs) 4 hours ago, MAJBobby said: And Jackson has the same playing style am I right? i dont mind jackson that much but he is a Project and I just dont want a Project as my QB. He should have stayed in school one more year. Let me ask this is it easier playing defense when your Offense scores a ton?? notice there are very little top ranked defense with horrible ranked offenses Lamar and TT are both dynamic athletes....they are both a threat to run the ball (Lamar maybe even more so) and they both throw the long ball. But that is where it ends....take a look at the passing TD's (in less years) for Lamar......and he has an absolute cannon for an arm which is always a popular thing for Buffalo. I dont really even want to factor in that he ran the same offense as our incoming OC into it because I want the QB to be able to run all offenses.....but.....
Thurman#1 Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, purple haze said: True. But these "franchise" QBs are few. To me, there are legitimately two. Rodgers and Brady. Then you have great QBs who, at one time, were franchise like such as Brees and Roethlisberger or young QBs who are franchise like at times such as Wilson, Newton, Luck before his injury, where you see them carry their teams all else be damned. None of these draftable QBs match that description. None of them are Luck or Manning or Newton coming out, whose physical skill set or football IQs were next level. They all have positives, but their flaws also stand out enough for me to believe they will need heavy assistance. Then maybe they grow into a franchise QB. But I don't see it happening out of the gate without other facets of the team heavy lifting. That's fine, but you're using the words "franchise QB" in a completely different way than most people do. Use them that way and you're going to have bad communication with nearly everyone you talk with. Most people would use "franchise QB" in a way that would mean that there are probably 10 - 18 or so of them. If you're using it to pick out only two guys and you want people to understand you, most people would probably say something like, "the best of the elite QBs," something like that. Edited March 5, 2018 by Thurman#1
NastyNateSoldiers Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 15 hours ago, gjv001 said: I would be very surprised to see Beane trade both 1st round picks for a QB. Would not be surprised to see him move for a QB, they covet, who falls to a point that only one 1st round pick and some other mid-level draft compensation is required. Who is this QB u suspect to fall this far ? Lamar is not worth a trade nether is Mason. All the other guys will be gone by 11 to the Dolphins. We also have to worry bout the Cards and Ravens making moves to get a QB. This is the way i see it going. #1 Browns-Barkley #2 Giants-Rosen #3 Colts & Bills - Trade 21,22, #53, Cordy and 2019 2nd. Bills select Sam Darnold #4 Browns- Mayfield #5 Broncos- Allen With Cousins signing with the Vikings this will create a stir at the top QBs will fly off the boards. The Bills find there deal with the Colts this is the sweet spot. The Colts get a franchise caliber LT in Cordy and at 21, 22 they can draft a couple stud defenders. With there early 2nd they can add to there Oline with Isiah Wynn or Will Hernandez. They still got our #2 @53 to even add more talent. The Colts aren't a horrible team they get Luck back and they need to protect him and build there Defense. This trade gets that done.
Thurman#1 Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 5 hours ago, John from Riverside said: 6th highest scoring offense in the league 2 years ago.....under Tyrod Taylor (and I think Lamar Jackson could give you those same strengths while STILL throwing for more TDs) 6th highest scoring offense in the league? No. In Tyrod's years here, the Bills have ranked 22nd (2017, 18.9 PPG), tied for 10th/11th (2016, 24.9 PPG), and 12th (2015, 23.7 PPG). And again, scoring is best understood not as an offensive stat but as a team stat. Offense gets maybe 70 - 80% of the credit, but defense and STs can actually score and have a huge hand in scoring opportunities in terms of field position. During that year you're I suppose referring to, we ranked around 10th in scoring by STs/defense and also 11th in drive start field position. While giving back to the defense the 23rd-worst field position. The offense had a lot of help that year.
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