BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Logic said: Please show me the science, then, that lends any credence whatsoever to the idea of a reasonable equivalence between the addiction and death potentials of opioids and cannabis. I'd love to see it. Studies not in any way funded by pharmaceutical companies or others with vested interest would be preferred. I'm not sure that data is out there either. Especially when studies of opioid include heroin, which hasnt been prescribed for a century, and opioids that are not taken as prescribed. As an aside, did you know that chemo drugs can kill you if you OD on them? Do you think it's reasonable to include the death profile on those when they are used incorrectly?
Logic Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 Just now, jmc12290 said: I'm not sure that data is out there either. Especially when studies of opioid include heroin, which hasnt been prescribed for a century, and opioids that are not taken as prescribed. As an aside, did you know that chemo drugs can kill you if you OD on them? Do you think it's reasonable to include the death profile on those when they are used incorrectly? I don't believe that question has any relevance in this discussion. Simple question: Which drug poses the greater threat of real, dangerous, physical addiction? Cannabis or any opioid (take your pick)? Next question: Which drug poses the greater thread of death due to overdose? Cannabis or any opioid (take your pick)? Can you produce any evidence whatsoever that cannabis is the answer to either of the above questions? Because there seems to be myriad evidence that opioids are the answer in both cases. And, as JohnBonham said above, can you find even ONE irrefutable, scientifically vetted case of cannabis itself being the cause of death in a person? I can't. I don't think you can either. 1
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said: And you do have an idea of how medicine is practiced? I would think the pathophysiology, which according to Google is "the disordered physiological processes associated with disease or injury", should probably be understood in order to make a diagnosis of that disease or injury being cause of death. Show me even one double blinded study that proves cannabis as a cause of death. Please do. You would be making medical history. Yes. And clearly you don't, with this ignorant statement. There are PAGES of diseases in which the pathophysiology is poorly understood. Your ignorance to this simple fact proves you should bow out now. 1 minute ago, Logic said: I don't believe that question has any relevance in this discussion. Simple question: Which drug poses the greater threat of real, dangerous, physical addiction? Cannabis or any opioid (take your pick)? Next question: Which drug poses the greater thread of death due to overdose? Cannabis or any opioid (take your pick)? Can you produce any evidence whatsoever that cannabis is the answer to either of the above questions? Because there seems to be myriad evidence that opioids are the answer in both cases. And, as JohnBonham said above, can you find even ONE irrefutable, scientifically vetted case of cannabis itself being the cause of death in a person? I can't. I don't think you can either. There is very little evidence that cannabis isn't. Which is important to the medical community. First do no harm, anyone? The question is relevant because there is a campaign of misinformation against opioids which is having the harmful effect of making patients suffer needlessly because they are afraid of the grossly exaggerated risks.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Yes. And clearly you don't, with this ignorant statement. There are PAGES of diseases in which the pathophysiology is poorly understood. Your ignorance to this simple fact proves you should bow out now. Good try. You're one of those arguers who provides no substantial evidence, links, or information to back up what you say. All I have to do is dispute you with nothing to back me up. So, no you don't know anything about practicing medicine, there are not page of diseases with the pathophysiology poorly understood, and your ignorance to both those facts proves you should bow out now. Annoying, isn't it? 1
Logic Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Yes. And clearly you don't, with this ignorant statement. There are PAGES of diseases in which the pathophysiology is poorly understood. Your ignorance to this simple fact proves you should bow out now. There is very little evidence that cannabis isn't. Which is important to the medical community. First do no harm, anyone? The question is relevant because there is a campaign of misinformation against opioids which is having the harmful effect of making patients suffer needlessly because they are afraid of the grossly exaggerated risks. Just to be clear, rather than provide any proof whatsoever -- any at all -- that cannabis is the answer to either of the questions I posed, you responded "Well there's no proof that cannabis ISN'T the answer to your questions!". Got it. I think I'm done here. You've made your (unfounded, still-not-backed-up-by-ANY-evidence) position in this matter clear. Have a lovely day.
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said: Good try. You're one of those arguers who provides no substantial evidence, links, or information to back up what you say. All I have to do is dispute you with nothing to back me up. So, no you don't know anything about practicing medicine, there are not page of diseases with the pathophysiology poorly understood, and your ignorance to both those facts proves you should bow out now. Annoying, isn't it? Not really. Because anyone with an education in medicine or science knows you're incorrect. You are welcome to embrace your own ignorance rather than educating yourself. It's your God-given right. 1 minute ago, Logic said: Just to be clear, rather than provide any proof whatsoever -- any at all -- that cannabis is the answer to either of the questions I posed, you responded "Well there's no proof that cannabis ISN'T the answer to your questions!". Got it. I think I'm done here. You've made your (unfounded, still-not-backed-up-by-ANY-evidence) position in this matter clear. Have a lovely day. There is no proof, buddy. That's the whole point. You wanted me to make something up? For what purpose? Yall really stink at this. Edited February 26, 2018 by jmc12290
John from Riverside Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 I think the Henderson train has come and gone.....why hang onto a player that you dont know if he is gonna play from week to week?
JohnBonhamRocks Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, jmc12290 said: Not really. Because anyone with an education in medicine or science knows you're incorrect. You are welcome to embrace your own ignorance rather than educating yourself. It's your God-given right. Actually, everyone with an education in medicine or science knows I'm correct. I just got off the phone with them, and they all told me so. 1
XXXtraAnchovies Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) Edited February 26, 2018 by XXXtraAnchovies
Green Lightning Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said: There were 26 deaths attributed to marijuana overdoses betweeen 1999-2007 (from what I saw). There were 63,000 deaths from opioid overdoses in 2016. So if we are going to play the “good, bad” game you will have a difficult time proving that marijuana is more dangerous than opioids. And those are pittance compared to alcohol related deaths.
Bob in Mich Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: There is very little evidence that cannabis isn't. Which is important to the medical community. First do no harm, anyone? The question is relevant because there is a campaign of misinformation against opioids which is having the harmful effect of making patients suffer needlessly because they are afraid of the grossly exaggerated risks. If you want to try thinking a bit.....look at the cardiac arrest data in places where use has become more prevalent with medical and adult-use. Wouldn't one expect to see corresponding spikes in those? California? Colorado? We are not seeing that. Surely you know by now that cannabis studies are difficult to get approved in the US if trying to prove anything other than drug abuse problems. If you are a doctor and are to serve your patients well, you need to dig deeper than to say 'I am waiting on the gold standard study'. Opiates are very valuable and are wonderful for short term pain. Long term is where the problems start to crop up. If you are prescribing, in the name of 'do no harm', you owe it your patients to look into cannabis medicines for pain before moving to the more harmful opiates. Of course, state laws have a huge say in a doctor's options too. Finally, the current opiate campaign is necessary because of the disinformation spread years earlier by the pharma industry that these were all safe. They surely have their place but they are not nearly as safe as we were told. 2
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnBonhamRocks said: Actually, everyone with an education in medicine or science knows I'm correct. I just got off the phone with them, and they all told me so. I'm not sure of your end game being intentionally wrong. Good luck to you. 55 minutes ago, Bob in Mich said: If you want to try thinking a bit.....look at the cardiac arrest data in places where use has become more prevalent with medical and adult-use. Wouldn't one expect to see corresponding spikes in those? California? Colorado? We are not seeing that. Surely you know by now that cannabis studies are difficult to get approved in the US if trying to prove anything other than drug abuse problems. If you are a doctor and are to serve your patients well, you need to dig deeper than to say 'I am waiting on the gold standard study'. Opiates are very valuable and are wonderful for short term pain. Long term is where the problems start to crop up. If you are prescribing, in the name of 'do no harm', you owe it your patients to look into cannabis medicines for pain before moving to the more harmful opiates. Of course, state laws have a huge say in a doctor's options too. Finally, the current opiate campaign is necessary because of the disinformation spread years earlier by the pharma industry that these were all safe. They surely have their place but they are not nearly as safe as we were told. Disinformation is never justified. I am curious as to the potentials of cannabinoids as a therapy. I will NOT pretend they don't have a side effect profile and a risk associated with them. 46 minutes ago, teef said: jmc...do you actually prescribe opioids? Of course. 1
Andrew Son Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 I love the argument "show me the research", when research has not been allowed due to blatantly ridiculous scheduling... 1
GrizzReaper Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) Anyone else find it kind of strange that after years of conflict overseas we suddenly have this surge of heroin in the U.S? We burned a lot of poppie fields but a whole lot of them were left to be... Idk just seems wierd to me. Oh back on topic... I dont think theyll bring Seantrel back. All things considered. Edited February 26, 2018 by GrizzReaper I kant speel
MrEpsYtown Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 Man what happened to this thread? Next thing you know we will be talking about Mason Rudolph or Tyrod Taylor.
BringBackOrton Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 39 minutes ago, SWATeam said: I love the argument "show me the research", when research has not been allowed due to blatantly ridiculous scheduling... There's things I control and things I don't. How many physicians are in on Big Pahrma's "scheme?"
Andrew Son Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, jmc12290 said: There's things I control and things I don't. How many physicians are in on Big Pahrma's "scheme?" I'd say just about all of them, unwittingly.
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