Alphadawg7 Posted February 26, 2018 Author Posted February 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: While some of your arguments make a lot of sense, Daboll isn't thought of as a bad OC choice. Just the opposite, he has a terrific reputation as a smart guy with success in a lot of places, including Alabama and New England. Nobody's going to hold a bad year in KC with Matt Cassel as the QB against him. Nobody. Our bridge QB will likely be signed before the draft. He won't know if or when we will draft someone. And teams that will bring him in could all draft someone. The bottom line is this, it'll depend where the chips fall. There are so probably gonna be so many good FA QBs available this year after Minny makes their decisions that it's an unusual year. There isn't usually a Cousins out there for FA QBs to compete against, nor such a number of good draft QBs that teams like the Giants, Denver, Cleveland etc. might or might not be committed to. It's gonna be a bit of a tough year for FAs, even pretty good ones. They're not gonna be able to sit back and take only the best opportunities. And the problem with Tyrod is he isn't a good bridge. He just isn't. A good bridge QB allows you to input the offense you want to run after the bridge guy is gone. Tyrod doesn't do that as shown by the tidal wave of "we need to change the offense to fit Tyrod's skills" choruses last year. That's not who you want as a bridge. As a backup or a team that believes in him as a longer-term starter, Tyrod's style would be a good match. As a bridge, no. As a bridge on a team that wants to run a system that requires a guy who can throw from the pocket, emphatically absolutely decisively no. The last thing you want is a guy who'll cause you to spend $23 mill in cap for one year's service and then make you change the playbook if you expect him to have success. The very last thing. You may well be right that we end up with a cheap bridge guy rather than an expensive one. Very possible. But it could also happen the other way. All fair points and a good well thought reply...and to be fair and clear, my description about Daboll is not my own opinion, I really am excited about Daboll. I meant it as if I was a FA QB looking from the outside in at my options. And a couple people mentioned the fact FA is ahead of the draft, which is obviously true. But like I said to someone else, they are going to ask the Bills if they intend to draft a QB high. So unless the Bills want to start their relationship off with a lie, they will have to tell them their plans. But MORE importantly in that scenario is the Bills side of the equation. If they want a QB high in this draft, its a BAD contractual move to commit to a guy like Bradford for good money and a multi year deal because he more than likely becomes a cap chewing backup QB in 2019, if not sooner. That is the point really. Not that Bradford and those guys wont come here, its that we wont offer a deal that will be more competitive than other offers or we will have to offer a deal that is not a good deal for the Bills long term IF they are going after a QB in this draft. And once again, if the Bills see someone like Bradford or AJ as a guy who can be the QB to invest in instead of trading up in the draft, then my post doesn't matter. I just find it hard to believe they see them as the upgrade they desire over the guys in this draft, but its possible. I do disagree with you about the problem with TT not being a good bridge because you cant put in the offense you want to run. I get why you would say that, but this is a very over exaggerated part of this far too often. First off, they can put in the same offense with TT they want to run with the rookie. The offense is the same, there are a massive of amount of plays in that offensive system and put game plans in within the same offense each week that both play to the strengths of the offense, but also to try and take advantage against weaknesses in the defense. Its always the same offense. Furthermore, Daboll will put in his offense. It doesn't matter if TT runs it perfect or not, he is NOT the future and may not even start a game if the rookie comes in hot. They are going to put the offense in Daboll wants to run, and will gameplan each week around TT (or whatever temp vet is out there) strengths and weaknesses for every game he plays in. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said: In 2016 he had 23TD passes and 5pks. He was definitely on his way last yr before the injury to his knee. He's a much better passer then Tyrod and way better fit in pass heavy Erhardt Perkins system . Btw the Vikings oline was horrible in 2016 and Bradford never played with a bk like Shady . We add a couple of wrs to complement Benjamin and were definitely gonna be putting up major pts on offense. Bradford? Yes he is an excellent passer. That is why he was a #1 overall pick, at a point when teams signing a #1 overall pick had no salary limits and knew they had to back up the Brinks truck. Fact: 2016 20 TD passes. In 8 years in the league, Bradford's record is 21 TD passes in a year where he threw 13 INT. When Tyrod threw 20 TD in 2015, I had the impression that wasn't enough for us here. But those are nits. You say "(Bradford) was definitely on his way last year before the injury to his knee". That's the crux of the Bradford problem right there. In 2013, Bradford was finally on his way! Then he injured his knee. In 2014, Bradford was gonna come back rehabbed and stronger than ever - then he re injured his knee In 2017, Bradford was definitely on his way - then he re injured his knee for the 3rd time. At this point Bradford has played 38 out of 80 games - less than half - of his last 5 seasons. He also missed 6 games due to an ankle sprain his second year. How many times do you have to pencil a guy in as a starter and think "he's definitely on his way!" only to see him go out from injury, before you decide he's not reliable? 2
BuffaloHokie13 Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: Smith took the 49ers to 13-3 and the NFCC game in his only full season as starter. I don't see him winning any of those close SBs in NE. Skins were on a trajectory to go 6-10 with Cousins and everyone wants to make him the highest paid player in the NFL. Except for that time 4 years before that where he started all 16 games for the 49ers. He threw for 2890 yards, 16 TDs, and 16 INTs. The team went 7-9. 3 minutes ago, PeterGriffin said: Only in the world of TT defenders is ONLY passing stats NOT used when doing QB comparisons. I doesn't make him look good and hurts the defenders narrative. Passing TDs 42 in 31 games or 1.355 for Bradford Passing TDs 51 in 43 games or 1.18 for Tyrod Talk about aversion to using QB passing stats. FWIW, I don't want Bradford or Tyrod QBing the Bills this year. Only on this board does a discussion about Bradford not being anything more than a bridge turn into a TT defense... TDs are TDs. When Cam Newton won MVP did he have 35 TDs or 45 TDs? Over the past 3 seasons, does Kirk Cousins have 81 TDs or 94 TDs? 3
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 14 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: I take no offense, its all good, but I also don't understand what exactly it is you think I said its foolish? I just do not in any way care about what level of play we get from a bridge QB who really is a seat warmer at most. We aren't trading up for a rookie QB and letting him sit 3 years. He will either start out the gate, take over in season, or assume the job fully in 2019. Anything any other QB does in between then means nothing to me. It may mean "nothing to you", but based on our team going 9-7 and reaching playoffs in a year where it would have helped our draft position to lose, it's not clear it means "nothing" to McBeane and company. Truthfully, it's very hard to sell "earn the right to win every week" "work hard, do your job, and good things happen to the team" if the team is not able to contend on a weekly basis.
SouthNYfan Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Smith took the 49ers to 13-3 and the NFCC game in his only full season as starter. I don't see him winning any of those close SBs in NE. Skins were on a trajectory to go 6-10 with Cousins and everyone wants to make him the highest paid player in the NFL. You mean when the 49ers had one of the best defenses in the NFL? Smith had 3100 yards 17td 4int that year Not bad but not elite by any means. Again, above average game manager. Not a guy who carries a team, but a guy who is better at not losing a game than he anything else. Don't act like you don't know the difference. Smith isn't elite, but he's solid. This sounds more like your hate of cousins clogging up the convo. He's better than Smith.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 26, 2018 Author Posted February 26, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, TigerJ said: I'm not so anti-Taylor that I'd jump ship like some fans i the Bills retained him, but I disagree with several of the OP's points. #1 Free agency precedes the draft. If Buffalo sign's a free agent QB, that QB will have no idea what is going to happen in the draft, because the Bills won't know. They will likely tell an potential signee, "You will have every chance to start, but we are going to continue to try and do what is best for the team." Any QB with the right attitude will be unafraid of that kind of situation because they think they are good enough to win a competition. I don't think the Bills are locked in to having a youngster start at any given point if the Bills are winning with a veteran acquisition. Again, thats all true but you leave out the part that the QB will have other suitors in comparison to the Buffalo Bills. If you know you want to start and that the Bills are going to probably bring in a rookie, you also know that your job is on a constant hot seat and looking over your shoulder. Which is fine, might even be true on other teams too that are interested. But now look at what that QB has to face here...worst weather in the NFL in an outdoor stadium, new OC, injury prone top WR with a struggling rookie WR on the other side coming off surgery. Not to mention we have been a run first team with McCoy and now have an OC most known for a power run game. So, if you have many options and are going to be in a situation where you have really no job security, then why would anyone choose the Bills situation over an equal or better offer somewhere else that doesn't have all the same variables? Again, if Bills want to make the BEST offer to them, sure that changes anything. But Bills would be stuck with that pricey contract once the rookie was ready to play. Quote #2 I suspect if the Bills sign a top level veteran QB, they will not draft a top QB. They will draft a second or third tier guy with the chance to develop. Jimmy Garapolo was one of those a few years back. This absolutely could happen, and if thats the case ALL QB's could certainly be seen coming here. My post is ONLY tied to the assumption and belief the Bills want a rookie in the first round this draft. I am not saying these vets have no interest in Buffalo, only specifying talking about all the "BRIDGE" QB" scenarios. I totally agree with you that they could get a QB in FA and skip drafting one (although I personally think they will draft one) so they can fill other needs on the team. Are fans going to be happy we skipped all these QB's for a Sam Bradford though? Quote #3 If Tyrod is retained as a starter/bridge QB or whatever, the offensive coordinator will have to run an unconventional offense built around Tyrod's abilities and limitations. Dennison tried to go more conventional last season, and the offense suffered as a result. If you have to run an unconventional offense, then whatever developmental QB you have on your roster is going to be disadvantaged, if he is a more conventional. He's not going to be able to develop his strengths because that's not the offense the Bills are running. If you then draft an unconventional QB because that's the offense you're running, you push to the future any ability to run a more typical offense because you've got nobody who can run it, unless Nate Peterman develops. I think creativity is a wonderful thing in football, but there is a reason conventional offenses with more passing is the norm. It works! This isnt true...I just addressed this in the post a second ago. Offenses and playbooks are big, teams tailor the palybook each week to the players on the field and for the defenses they are facing. They will simply gameplan to his strengths and weaknesses each week and its the same offense. And again, it does not matter what the "bridge" QB does, literally has no relevance...all that matters is the rookie. So even if Taylor doesn't do well running the new offense, who cares. Quote A more conventional veteran QB will be advantageous to a young developmental guy because the young guy can learn the things a conventional QB needs to do, things he can't learn very well from watching Tyrod. I get this theory, but its just not very realistic or accurate. Most rookies coming in as high draft picks dont have good QB's to learn from, hence whey the team is drafting high. In some cases, they get picked to be the future behind an aging vet, like when Rogers was drafted to eventually taker over for Farve. But even Farve didn't offer Rogers any help. You think someone like Bradford wants to come here and coach a kid to take his job? We are talking about guys who want to start, not teach. Quote #4 Like a lot of fans, I think Buffalo has a chance to be improved next year. Like a lot of fans, I also believe that Tyrod will likely hold back and limit te amount of improvement the offense can make. Therefore, I care very much who the QB is, whether he's a bridge or a long term starter. As I said, I won't jump ship if Ty is the guy, but I have to admit, I'm very skeptical that the Bills offense can substantially improve with Tyrod at QB. I love the Bills, so I get this. But the reality is, it doesn't matter what the bridge QB does, they may not even start a game. What matters more to me is the future of the Bills, and having an expensive backup chewing up cap space hurts this team WAY MORE...literally WAY MORE...than TT playing one more year here. And sorry, TT isnt nearly as bad as many think, he has a winning record, led us to the playoffs, and is more than capable of keeping a seat warm for a rookie. Good posts, and thanks for the thoughtful replies. 5 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said: Just wondering how many Tyrod Taylor threads you plan on making? Its a legit response.. Enough is enough. Just wondering how many times you will misread threads? Not a Tyrod thread, its about bridge QB options. And I haven't started any other Tyrod threads and dont often start threads in general, so your not even accurate there. Edited February 26, 2018 by Alphadawg7
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: But we just made the playoffs with TT. So how is putting TT out there mean they are not trying to win? He has a winning record, multiple pro bowls, and a playoff game on his resume in 3 years here despite 2 HC's, 3 (now 4) OC's, revolving door of low end WR weapons due to injuries, FA, and trades, etc? And had ZJ not blown his route in week 2 and NP doesn't play in SD, TT and the Bills could have won 11 games. But...if we trade up to get a rookie, then anything that happens before he starts doesn't matter. That does not mean it doesn't matter to the players, of course it does. It mean, it factually does not matter to the future of the Bills because that vet is not the future, the rookie is. Not to mention, that vet might not even play if the rookie plays strong in preseason. Where did this turn into YATTD (yet another Tyrod Taylor defense)? You said " I just do not in any way care about what level of play we get from a bridge QB who really is a seat warmer at most. " That's your view - global, not limited to TT My point is, based upon what they've said and done, it's not clear that McBeane and Co take that attitude. Not clear it's their view. I don't think they will be after signing any old QB to be a seat warmer. I think they will be looking for a QB who is an upgrade to TT if they sign a vet. 2
GunnerBill Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: You think someone like Bradford wants to come here and coach a kid to take his job? We are talking about guys who want to start, not teach. Bradford has two options: 1. Bridge contract; or 2. Retire. Nobody is giving Sam Bradford a contract to be their starter and unless he holds out until after the draft before signing somewhere - which is possible - he won't know which teams have taken the more NFL ready Quarterbacks and which have taken the longer term projects. 3
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Bradford has two options: 1. Bridge contract; or 2. Retire. Nobody is giving Sam Bradford a contract to be their starter and unless he holds out until after the draft before signing somewhere - which is possible - he won't know which teams have taken the more NFL ready Quarterbacks and which have taken the longer term projects. He might have option 3. "sign as a backup" I could be surprised, I often am, but I agree with you - I don't think any team gives SB the keys to the car any more. 2
GunnerBill Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: He might have option 3. "sign as a backup" I could be surprised, I often am, but I agree with you - I don't think any team gives SB the keys to the car any more. You are right Hapless. Option 3 is sign somewhere with an established QB and accept he is a backup. Grateful for the clarification. 1
Mr. WEO Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 34 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said: You mean when the 49ers had one of the best defenses in the NFL? Smith had 3100 yards 17td 4int that year Not bad but not elite by any means. Again, above average game manager. Not a guy who carries a team, but a guy who is better at not losing a game than he anything else. Don't act like you don't know the difference. Smith isn't elite, but he's solid. This sounds more like your hate of cousins clogging up the convo. He's better than Smith. I don't hate Cousins, just don't see what the fuss is about. I brought him into that post because you brought the Skins into this. 44 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: Except for that time 4 years before that where he started all 16 games for the 49ers. He threw for 2890 yards, 16 TDs, and 16 INTs. The team went 7-9. Only on this board does a discussion about Bradford not being anything more than a bridge turn into a TT defense... TDs are TDs. When Cam Newton won MVP did he have 35 TDs or 45 TDs? Over the past 3 seasons, does Kirk Cousins have 81 TDs or 94 TDs? my bad
corta765 Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 This would be the point I remind the OP that Tyrod Taylor himself hit the open market and came BACK to Buffalo for less because suitors didn't think he was worth the money he wanted. Bridge QB's are exactly that and all it takes is one team possibly BUF that puts enough money and term on the table that sells them to come here.
buffalobloodfloridahome Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 Bradford is a perfect bridge you just play him until his knees fail then start the rookie. As long as he can get a few games into the season we would be just fine.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 26, 2018 Author Posted February 26, 2018 51 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Where did this turn into YATTD (yet another Tyrod Taylor defense)? You said " I just do not in any way care about what level of play we get from a bridge QB who really is a seat warmer at most. " That's your view - global, not limited to TT My point is, based upon what they've said and done, it's not clear that McBeane and Co take that attitude. Not clear it's their view. I don't think they will be after signing any old QB to be a seat warmer. I think they will be looking for a QB who is an upgrade to TT if they sign a vet. Im not defending TT, so sorry if it came across that way, but its mostly because of all the side tracked conversation. Bottom line is this...we can and have won with TT. So if we are going to draft a rookie high, like a trade up even, then why not just stick with the 1 year deal with TT. Let the rookie battle it out in preseason to wither win the job outright or take the job over sometime during the year. Now TT's is gone in 2019 and it costs us nothing. If we spend more money on a QB than TT and for a multiyear deal, then Bills have a high priced backup eating cap space in 2019 instead of having that cap space to keep adding more to the team. Thats all I am saying in regards to TT. Personally, I think if we can trade TT thats the best solution, then just let NP start and see if he can show he has an NFL career while the rookie sits until he is ready to play. If NP fails, who cares, only helps our 2019 draft outlook. If NP shows value, then we could actually have a trade chip in him potentially moving forward. I am just not seeing why a good starter will sign here on a 1 year deal...so why bother...lets get our future in the draft and forego an expensive bridge guy in FA by either riding out the last year of TT or trading him (if we can) and let NP have a shot to show he has a future or not. 16 minutes ago, buffalobloodfloridahome said: Bradford is a perfect bridge you just play him until his knees fail then start the rookie. As long as he can get a few games into the season we would be just fine. No one has said he isnt...my OP when I started this thread is about the fact he will have other suitors, so why would Buffalo make sense unless we pay him more or longer? And that would be a bad move for the Bills to pay him multiyear deal if they draft a high rookie to take his place. I think thats the thing people keep missing...this isnt a debate on the merits of the bridge QB, its about the reality of actually securing their services...what it will take, what is best long term money wise for Bills, etc. 55 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Bradford has two options: 1. Bridge contract; or 2. Retire. Nobody is giving Sam Bradford a contract to be their starter and unless he holds out until after the draft before signing somewhere - which is possible - he won't know which teams have taken the more NFL ready Quarterbacks and which have taken the longer term projects. I am not denying that he likely is in a bridge situation...but he will have multiple suitors. Its about the reality the BILLS are the ones he CHOOSES. We have an OC whose record as an OC has been poor in the NFL, so still unproven in that regard. And he is known to run a power run game. We are an outdoor team in terrible weather. A "bridge" QB KNOWS they are on a short leash and they only keep that rookie on the bench if playing well. Our weather factors into that. Our WR group isnt inspiring with a top WR who has had several knee injuries and a #2 guy coming off a dissapointing rookie year. So if 3 teams are there to choose from, what makes him choose Buffalo over the other 2? He isnt going to just do the Bills a favor, its going to be the team that offers him the most money and/or the best chance to showcase his talents to get a long term starting job. So if all the offers are close to equal, I cant see how he CHOOSES the Bills over other bridge opportunities unless the Bills pay more and/or offer multiyear offer. Now, if the Bills want to bring in someone like Keenum, Bradford, AJ, etc to be a starter INSTEAD of drafting a QB, we absolutely become a possible destination for all of them. But this thread is based on the popular belief the Bills are going to go after a QB this draft. And if they want to, are they really going to take in a pricier vet instead of just riding out TT"s contract or trading TT and letting NP play until the rookie wins the job?
GunnerBill Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 22 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: So if 3 teams are there to choose from, what makes him choose Buffalo over the other 2? He isnt going to just do the Bills a favor, its going to be the team that offers him the most money and/or the best chance to showcase his talents to get a long term starting job. So if all the offers are close to equal, I cant see how he CHOOSES the Bills over other bridge opportunities unless the Bills pay more and/or offer multiyear offer. Look at the teams who are likely in the market for a bridge..... Buffalo, Cleveland, the Jets, Arizona and maybe Denver (though I still think Cousins goes there). Is Arizona more attractive? Possibly but I don't think it is a slam dunk. We are not competing with the creme de la creme in this market. If Buffalo is interested in Bradford as a bridge (I have no idea whether they are or not) I think they'd have a pretty good chance of landing him.
Big Gun Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 2 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: . TDs are TDs. When Cam Newton won MVP did he have 35 TDs or 45 TDs? Over the past 3 seasons, does Kirk Cousins have 81 TDs or 94 TDs? Just stop, nobody other than TT are total TDs referenced, ever! How many does Jim Kelly have? 237 right, nobody ever associates Jim Kelly with 244 TDs, ever! T Brady has 488, nobody ever says Brady has 505 TDs right now, or P Manning has 539 right, never referenced he has 557 TDs. It's only done with TT to try and make him look better because he sucks as a passer and adding his "total" stats make him look somewhat comparable to even the most average of average guys. Tyrod defenders are so laughable it hurts. 1
John from Riverside Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Look at the teams who are likely in the market for a bridge..... Buffalo, Cleveland, the Jets, Arizona and maybe Denver (though I still think Cousins goes there). Is Arizona more attractive? Possibly but I don't think it is a slam dunk. We are not competing with the creme de la creme in this market. If Buffalo is interested in Bradford as a bridge (I have no idea whether they are or not) I think they'd have a pretty good chance of landing him. What you say here is true....i just think the bills are being smart in keeping a viable starter on hand in case the worst scenario's happen People hate it.....but it was the right play
GunnerBill Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 Just now, John from Hemet said: What you say here is true....i just think the bills are being smart in keeping a viable starter on hand in case the worst scenario's happen People hate it.....but it was the right play Let's see how it plays out with Tyrod... that situation still has a lot of room to run. I still think the chance of him being here in September are very remote. I think they can go with him if they want to (I'm pretty sure they don't) but they can also land a bridge Quarterback without the baggage of history here too. They are in a decent position to do that.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted February 26, 2018 Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, PeterGriffin said: Just stop, nobody other than TT are total TDs referenced, ever! How many does Jim Kelly have? 237 right, nobody ever associates Jim Kelly with 244 TDs, ever! T Brady has 488, nobody ever says Brady has 505 TDs right now, or P Manning has 539 right, never referenced he has 557 TDs. It's only done with TT to try and make him look better because he sucks as a passer and adding his "total" stats make him look somewhat comparable to even the most average of average guys. Tyrod defenders are so laughable it hurts. No, it's pretty common now actually. Why do you not want to give credit to a QB who sees an opportunity and runs for a TD? Guys like Newton, Rodgers, Wilson, Smith, Cousins, and yes even Brady give it purpose.
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