Mike Mayock: There is no Carson Wentz in this QB class; wouldn’t put one in his top 5

[#34fan]

4 hours ago, zevo said:

Why is Carson Wentz now the standard....

 

With the exception of a problematic throwing motion, Carson Wentz was the most pro-ready QB I've seen since '98... Not even Rodgers looked that good.

I'm glad Mayock is telling the Truth... This draft features some promising QB talent in late rounds like LSU's Danny Etling, and Riley Ferguson from MEM...

We could save this years high picks for d-line and LB to strengthen those units

Edited February 22, 2018 by #34fan

[racketmaster]

I like Wentz a lot but he was also surrounded by an excellent coaching staff and a very talented supporting cast. Nick Foles is a solid qb and was plugged into that system and looked like an all-pro. Again, Wentz is a very promising young qb but he has yet to be asked to carry a team. 

 

Incidentally Wentz went #2 to Jared Goff so should Mayock be saying there is no qb as good as Goff in this year's draft? Hindsight is 20/20 but when Wentz was coming out there were a lot of questions about the level of competition he played against and if his game could translate to the NFL. He also had some injuries in college so he was not a completely clean prospect. And again LA studied them both and chose Goff over Wentz (not saying they were right to do so but an NFL team that intensely studied these two quarterbacks ended up choosing Goff). 

 

So is there a quarterack(s) better than Wentz (prospect)? Scouting is subjective, especially when it comes to quarterbacks so I bet there are a bunch of teams who have Darnold and/or Rosen rated higher than they did Wentz. Remember, that Rosen was called the "chosen one" for a reason and Darnold was being hailed the next Andrew Luck (as a prospect) this time last year. The prospects at the top (Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield and Allen) are very good prospects and to get that many in one year is a little unusual. The depth may be part of the explanation as it is hard to get a handle on who exactly is the best prospect amongst the top grouping. And since there is not a total consensus and there is a ton of nit picking of the prospects then it makes it seem like the top guys are not as good. Whereas, Goff and Wentz had distanced themselves from the rest of there qb class because it was not as good (overall). 

 

I'm excited about this group of quarterbacks. There is definitely elite level ability in the top 4 and then some very interesting prospects like Jackson and Rudolph who appear to be every bit the prospects that Tannehill, Locker, Ponder, Dalton etc. were. Plus, there is a nice grouping of day 2 and 3 prospects that have a chance to be solid starters or high end backups. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by racketmaster

[#34fan]

8 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

I like Wentz a lot but he was also surrounded by an excellent coaching staff and a very talented supporting cast. Nick Foles is a solid qb and was plugged into that system and looked like an all-pro. Again, Wentz is a very promising young qb but he has yet to be asked to carry a team. 

 

 

 

I don't agree with you entire statement, but I do agree with this... This is the key right here... If you don't have this, it doesn't matter who you draft.

I'm for building the supporting cast before bringing in whoever you think is the franchise guy.

Edited February 22, 2018 by #34fan
slow eyes.

[MILFHUNTER#518]

4 hours ago, Like A Mofo said:

Just stay close to 21 and get Lamar Jackson

Bad move, they may as well keep Tyrod if they wanna go down that road

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

I personally think all these QBs need to be put in a position to succeed by their teams. I have a hard time believing that none of the QBs drafted or playing for the Browns ever had potential. David Carr is my favorite example the guy had all the tools and was ruined by his teams lack of Oline. He never recovered and was an adequate backup the rest of his career. Derek Carr was put in a better situation and I believe will live up to what his older brother was supposed to be.

[John from Riverside]

10 minutes ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said:

Bad move, they may as well keep Tyrod if they wanna go down that road

Yes because they are totally the same player

[Zerovoltz]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually from what I've seen on film, you're describing Mayfield.  Mayfield tends to miss open guys downfield and squirt out of the pocket too soon.   He just doesn't use his legs as well as Jackson when he does.   I'm uncertain about his ability to read a D, find lanes, or make progressions.

 

I think you're wrong about Jackson being a taller Taylor.  Taylor at Virginia Tech had top passing yardage was 2700 yds his Sr year.  He had 315 pass attempts to 146 pass attempts, meaning 1 out of every 3 times he put his hands on the ball, he ran with it.  As far as I know, the Hokie offense was pretty much 1-read.  Taylor still struggles to read the field and make progressions.  He still doesn't throw with anticipation and he hesitates to throw into tight windows.

 

Jackson has a bunch of designed runs called for him, but he clearly reads a defense and makes progressions far more regularly (and better) than Taylor, or several other QB rated higher in the draft - Mayfield, Darnold, and Rudolph, I'd say.  He doesn't have much of an OL, so he does roll out and improv, but he also steps up into throwing lanes and moves around in the pocket to shed defenders when he has one.  His passing yardage is 3660 yds on 430 attempts which ~ Russ Wilson as a Jr.  Jackson has 232 rushing attempts this past season to 430 passes, which makes him similar to Taylor in running one out of every 3 times he puts his hands on the ball, but when he doesn't run, he's clearly ahead of where Taylor was as a Sr. in reads/progressions, throwing with anticipation, and throwing into tight windows.  His receivers are graded as "dropping" the ball the most of any of this year's top prospects: 11 or 12 percent drops, which I think explains his low completion %.  He is accurate.  Allen, whose low completion is being excused by drops and who is clearly not accurate at times, was 7 or 8% drops, Rosen is in-between.

 

Basically, Jackson has racked up similar passing numbers to Rosen (and far better than Allen) but then added the rushing contributions of a quality RB on top of it.  Reportedly he's a demon for work who shows up at 6 am to watch film.  He keeps his mouth shut (but has worked hard to improve his media ability) and is reportedly highly coachable.  He's clearly improved as a passer and a QB during his time at Louisville.  His passing mechanics and footwork are nowhere near as good as Rosen (or Mayfield), not even in the same conversation, but his natural arm is a-MAZ-ing. He flicks his wrist and the ball lasers out on a rope.  He needs to refine his lower body and mechanics, but so do Allen, Darnold, and Mayfield.  He's not as "pro ready" as a pocket-passing guy like White or Lauletta (who also have more polished mechanics), but he's got a far better arm (edit: and I've come to wonder if the pro-readiness of small program guys is illusory, because they don't know what they don't know (on reading NFL D) or what they can't do (on throwing into tight windows vs NFL DB)

 

I guess this makes me sound like a big Jackson fanboy, so I should make clear my top 2 QB choices are Rosen then Mayfield (because of better throwing mechanics and footwork at present).  But I think Jackson is under-rated and if the pundits keep dissing him off as "should be a WR or a RB" maybe we can get our hands on him without selling the farm.  And it's pissing me off to have him described as a WR.  He won the freakin' Heisman as a QB fergoshsakes!   Or to have people cite "injury concerns" for a guy who hasn't missed a game (because he runs).  Yeah, he should learn to slide.

Your assessment has caused me to reconsider my evaluation on Jackson....I'm going to go watch more film.

[MILFHUNTER#518]

15 minutes ago, John from Hemet said:

Yes because they are totally the same player

Pretty much.

 

QB's who rely on their legs in college rarely if ever translate to the NFL. Durability is key. They need to be able to make throws consistently from the pocket. If the can't, they wont be around long. See RG3. 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said:

Pretty much.

 

QB's who rely on their legs in college rarely if ever translate to the NFL. Durability is key. They need to be able to make throws consistently from the pocket. If the can't, they wont be around long. See RG3. 

Do more research

 

They are not the same player just because they have the same abilities.

 

[TheFunPolice]

I'm shocked at RGIII's fall...

 

He was amazing right away... he didn't just run either, he was a very good passer.

 

Then he was just done. Pretty much never heard from again.

[MILFHUNTER#518]

3 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

I'm shocked at RGIII's fall...

 

He was amazing right away... he didn't just run either, he was a very good passer.

 

Then he was just done. Pretty much never heard from again.

Durability

[SouthNYfan]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually from what I've seen on film, you're describing Mayfield.  Mayfield tends to miss open guys downfield and squirt out of the pocket too soon.   He just doesn't use his legs as well as Jackson when he does.   I'm uncertain about his ability to read a D, find lanes, or make progressions.

 

I think you're wrong about Jackson being a taller Taylor.  Taylor at Virginia Tech had top passing yardage was 2700 yds his Sr year.  He had 315 pass attempts to 146 pass attempts, meaning 1 out of every 3 times he put his hands on the ball, he ran with it.  As far as I know, the Hokie offense was pretty much 1-read.  Taylor still struggles to read the field and make progressions.  He still doesn't throw with anticipation and he hesitates to throw into tight windows.

 

Jackson has a bunch of designed runs called for him, but he clearly reads a defense and makes progressions far more regularly (and better) than Taylor, or several other QB rated higher in the draft - Mayfield, Darnold, and Rudolph, I'd say.  He doesn't have much of an OL, so he does roll out and improv, but he also steps up into throwing lanes and moves around in the pocket to shed defenders when he has one.  His passing yardage is 3660 yds on 430 attempts which ~ Russ Wilson as a Jr.  Jackson has 232 rushing attempts this past season to 430 passes, which makes him similar to Taylor in running one out of every 3 times he puts his hands on the ball, but when he doesn't run, he's clearly ahead of where Taylor was as a Sr. in reads/progressions, throwing with anticipation, and throwing into tight windows.  His receivers are graded as "dropping" the ball the most of any of this year's top prospects: 11 or 12 percent drops, which I think explains his low completion %.  He is accurate.  Allen, whose low completion is being excused by drops and who is clearly not accurate at times, was 7 or 8% drops, Rosen is in-between.

 

Basically, Jackson has racked up similar passing numbers to Rosen (and far better than Allen) but then added the rushing contributions of a quality RB on top of it.  Reportedly he's a demon for work who shows up at 6 am to watch film.  He keeps his mouth shut (but has worked hard to improve his media ability) and is reportedly highly coachable.  He's clearly improved as a passer and a QB during his time at Louisville.  His passing mechanics and footwork are nowhere near as good as Rosen (or Mayfield), not even in the same conversation, but his natural arm is a-MAZ-ing. He flicks his wrist and the ball lasers out on a rope.  He needs to refine his lower body and mechanics, but so do Allen, Darnold, and Mayfield.  He's not as "pro ready" as a pocket-passing guy like White or Lauletta (who also have more polished mechanics), but he's got a far better arm (edit: and I've come to wonder if the pro-readiness of small program guys is illusory, because they don't know what they don't know (on reading NFL D) or what they can't do (on throwing into tight windows vs NFL DB)

 

I guess this makes me sound like a big Jackson fanboy, so I should make clear my top 2 QB choices are Rosen then Mayfield (because of better throwing mechanics and footwork at present).  But I think Jackson is under-rated and if the pundits keep dissing him off as "should be a WR or a RB" maybe we can get our hands on him without selling the farm.  And it's pissing me off to have him described as a WR.  He won the freakin' Heisman as a QB fergoshsakes!   Or to have people cite "injury concerns" for a guy who hasn't missed a game (because he runs).  Yeah, he should learn to slide.

 

On point my man.

 

I do have injury concerns for Jackson just based on scrambling QBs injury history in the NFL.

Mobile, athletic, scrambling QBs as a whole have shorter career than most of the top end officer guys.

 

I don't think that's worth passing on Jackson if he's there btw because of this.

 

Anybody who says Jackson is tyrod 2.0 is either completely clueless, lazy, or just being dramatic. 

[Mr. WEO]

 So Cleveland should, again, pass on a QB in the top 5?  Because Mayock says there is no Wentz? 

 

Messed up logic from the guy who had Mitch Trubisky going top 5 last year---to Cleveland!!

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Mr. WEO

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm really coming around to this, but the point has been made, could we trust McDermott to develop him properly?

He did see Cam Newton "develop" in Carolina however Jackson is no Newton,  if we don't trade up for Rosen I prefer we stay at 21 and hopefully Rudolph falls to us. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

Mayock didn’t think so though ... he was higher on him than anyone, and early 

 

I guess, I was a huge Wentz fan but that doesn't mean their are no franchise QBs this year.  If Mayfield was taller he would be considered a better prospect than Wentz.

 

 

[Buffalo Bills Detective]

57 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

With the exception of a problematic throwing motion, Carson Wentz was the most pro-ready QB I've seen since '98... Not even Rodgers looked that good.

I'm glad Mayock is telling the Truth... This draft features some promising QB talent in late rounds like LSU's Danny Etling, and Riley Ferguson from MEM...

We could save this years high picks for d-line and LB to strengthen those units

So sick and tired of this.  Tom Brady in the 6th was a once-in-a-lifetime event and this mindless hyping of "promising late round QBs"  has got to stop.

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, billsfan_34 said:

Kiper is a blowhard- and yes, he is wrong a whole lot more than right in regards to his mocks. No, I dont expect perfection, my point is all these mocks are shotty, and will be a little less shotty after FA. 

 

I'm guessing you're your favorite draftnik.

 

For the record, Mayock does one mock within a few days of the draft. And even getting 6-7 picks in the first round is considered good.

 

I would say these individuals are known for what they think of players, not necessarily where they slot them in a mock draft.  To use a broad brush and declare none of them worthwhile is absurd.

[Lurker]

I don't get all the dilly dilly in this thread.   

 

If Wentz were in this draft he'd be the top QB by a mile IMO.    Each one of this year's crop has at least one negative more pronounced than Wentz had in his draft year.  His top question mark was quality of competition, which is always a crap shoot.   But that's better than a mechanical/decision making/athletic issue if he isn't overwhelmed by playing at the next level.   

 

I believe that's all Mayock is saying, and I agree with him...

[billspro]

7 hours ago, zevo said:

Why is Carson Wentz now the standard....

 

Why wouldn't he be? That is what you want with the 1st overall pick. 

 

Saying that I think Darnold and Rosen are good enough prospects to justify a top 5 selection. 

[McBean]

Another great reason to turn off the TV on Sundays in 2018 to spend time with family.

 

I can’t watch another Bills game with Tyrod Taylor under center.