Who is your choice for Bills starting QB in 2018 and why?

[Reed83HOF]

18 minutes ago, xRUSHx said:

Jackson gets penalized IMO because he is too scrawny, no lower half of his body while Mayfield has good size down low to take the hits. Jackson's game is about running, I can see his legs getting broken many times in his NFL career.

^^ This. The league doesn't really love running QBs that much....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, White Linen said:

Brees was a second rounder that was dismissed by his drafted team and really only took off as one of the best when he joined the Saints.  He's developed into one of the best ever and at his height is an anomaly not an example of many.   Wilson was a 3rd round pick who's had 2 excellent years statistically.  We'll likely have to give up significant draft picks to move up and get Baker and I think it's foolish with the barriers he'll likely need to overcome.  I'd gladly take a shot at him in the 2nd or 3rd round like the NFL comparisons you've provided.

 

Brees was "dismissed by his draft team" for values of "dismissed" that include "comeback player of the year", Probowl selection, a franchise tag, and a 5 year, $50M FA contract offer (Brees turned it down for a 6 year, $60M offer from the Saints that was structured differently).

I expect that when all the smoke has settled, many are going to be surprised at the QB draft.  I don't think we're going to see 6 QB picked in the first round.  But I could be wrong.

8 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

^^ This. The league doesn't really love running QBs that much....

 

Why'd they draft Wentz Prescott and Watson then?  They all seem to have done quite a bit of running.

[PrimeTime101]

6 hours ago, kota said:

Whoever they draft or Nate Peterman.  

  Also there is a big difference between hating to lose and being a Jackass.  He fits into the jackass category.  Mayfield was arrested in the early morning of Feb. 25 in Fayetteville, and was charged with public intoxication, disorderly conduct, fleeing and resisting arrest.

I can see him getting into it with Buffalo Police on chippewa.    

totally respect your opinion.. BUT everyone was young dumb.. full of.. once.. you know the saying right? Some things you have to look beyond and this is one of them.

[transplantbillsfan]

Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, or Josh Rosen.

 

Any of those 3.  Generally in that order... though Darnold and Mayfield are about equal for me.

 

 

Why?

 

Darnold I think will be really good down the road, but will likely take a lot of rookie lumps unless Dabol specifically protects him.

 

Mayfield just reminds me of Jim Kelly in terms of attitude and competitiveness.  I just feel like he'll be the best QB of the bunch.

 

Rosen I think could come in and start and be really successful immediately, ala Matt Ryan in 2008.

[drf1835]

(1) My heart says Baker Mayfield, as he would bring much excitement, and I would love for him to shut up the big naysayers, like he has before.

 

(2) My head says Josh Rosen, as he seems to be the most ready, and has arguably the most talent, intangibles and accuracy, with the least qbs physical flaws. . 

 

(3) My head and heart combined says, 'do not draft either, as the draft pick price is likely too high, and as there is a good chance that neither could have long successful careers because of injury (for Rosen), or potential personality issues or attitude issues for both. I feel like Rudolph, White, or Lauletta could possess enough talent and intangibles to be above average starting qbs, and the draft prices would. be much lower. They all seem to also have great character, level heads, and seem mature beyond their years.

 

Save those two first round picks for other position needs. Sign a free agent qb for a year or two, if need be, while that drafted qb learns, and while Peterman develops as well. 

 

if we can go to the playoffs with Tyrod, with one of the worst passing offenses in the league, I think by drafting like I said, and getting a qb like Foles, Keenan, McCown, Etc, if that is possible, or Bridgewater or Bradford, who have some issues, yes, but are who are less one dimensional than Tyrod, I think this is my 'head AND heart ' plan to increase the chance for Bills success, while reducing the risk for failure. 

 

But, I would not be upset if the Bills drafted either Mayfield or Rosen, as that could work out as well, and lead to us not revisiting the qb issue over many years,  if it worked out. . I would prefer Msyfield though over Rosen, because of durability issues, if I had to pick one of the two. He would bring more excitement to me, based on his uniqueness.

 

[Reed83HOF]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Brees was "dismissed by his draft team" for values of "dismissed" that include "comeback player of the year", Probowl selection, a franchise tag, and a 5 year, $50M FA contract offer (Brees turned it down for a 6 year, $60M offer from the Saints that was structured differently).

I expect that when all the smoke has settled, many are going to be surprised at the QB draft.  I don't think we're going to see 6 QB picked in the first round.  But I could be wrong.

 

Why'd they draft Wentz Prescott and Watson then?  They all seem to have done quite a bit of running.

 

Prescott was a 4th rounder

 

Wentz played in a pro-style offence - under center, pistol, shotgun, etc - good accuracy, ball placement, good touch, play action etc. To me a QB who can run...

 

Watson - I was not high on. His accuracy and ball placement issues scared me. I still feel that his WRs saved his ass a lot in college...Curious to see him more

 

With QBs I like to see if:

 

1.) They actually can be "successful" after about a year of playing. You can make some plays and win some games. Can't get too high, too soon.

2.) In the second season, they are able to overcome what the defenses take away. Whether it is a new offensive scheme/new QB and there isn't a lot of tape - how do you perform when the league catches up. Can you adjust?

3.) By about the 3rd year you know...If the D forces you to be a QB, can you do it....If the D takes this away, can you do that...

[JoeF]

Here's who I want on the depth chart at the start of the regular season...

 

1) AJ McCarron - at a number lower than Tyrods--the market is flooded--I think this is realistic

2) Jacoby Brissett - via trade for Shaq Lawson.  Bills also get a pick (4th or 5th).

3) Nathan Peterman

 

Most of you will be searching for the thumbs down emoji....hee hee....

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Here's who I want on the depth chart at the start of the regular season...

 

1) AJ McCarron - at a number lower than Tyrods--the market is flooded--I think this is realistic

2) Jacoby Brissett - via trade for Shaq Lawson.  Bills also get a pick (4th or 5th).

3) Nathan Peterman

 

Most of you will be searching for the thumbs down emoji....hee hee....

 

 

 

(thumbs down doesn't do it for me)

 

But to be fair to you...can you explain how this strategy differs from the Bills traditional MO of signing scraps from FA or other team's backup rosters such as Fitzpatrick/Kolb/Orton/TJax/Lewis/Taylor etc etc?

 

 

31 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Prescott was a 4th rounder

 

Wentz played in a pro-style offence - under center, pistol, shotgun, etc - good accuracy, ball placement, good touch, play action etc. To me a QB who can run...

 

Watson - I was not high on. His accuracy and ball placement issues scared me. I still feel that his WRs saved his ass a lot in college...Curious to see him more

 

With QBs I like to see if:

 

1.) They actually can be "successful" after about a year of playing. You can make some plays and win some games. Can't get too high, too soon.

2.) In the second season, they are able to overcome what the defenses take away. Whether it is a new offensive scheme/new QB and there isn't a lot of tape - how do you perform when the league catches up. Can you adjust?

3.) By about the 3rd year you know...If the D forces you to be a QB, can you do it....If the D takes this away, can you do that...

 

"League doesn't love running QB that much" would explain why Prescott fell to the 4th, but he was drafted....

 

So I don't know sh*t from shinola with college football, but there are a bunch of articles around about how Petrino prefers to run a pro-style offense and has worked with Jackson to put him under center at times and to go through progressions.  This for example.  Is that all baloney or is that what Louisville does?  All the film I've seen so far shows Jackson in shotgun, but he does clearly make progressions.  And boy howdy can he throw a bullet into a tight window.

 

What I'd really like to see is a film cutup of Lamar Jackson that is only passing plays.  His runs are so spectacular that I find myself watching for him to run instead of focusing on what his feet and eyes are doing.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[JoeF]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

(thumbs down doesn't do it for me)

 

But to be fair to you...can you explain how this strategy differs from the Bills traditional MO of signing scraps from FA or other team's backup rosters such as Fitzpatrick/Kolb/Orton/TJax/Lewis/Taylor etc etc?

Brissett had a decent year in his second year (which was essentially his rookie year) with a bad team.  59% completion, over 3000 yards, 13TD to 7 INT.  He was running for his life a lot.

 

McCarron is really smart, has little wear and tear.  He is accurate, high intellect and a good leader.  He is into the game.  He learned in 2015 when he got pounded against really good competition in a playoff push (12 sacks in 90 attempts) to get rid of the ball quickly. 

 

Just speculating but I think McD is suggesting to Beane to keep the picks;  get me some front 7 D help with three of the 5 top three round picks -- Vita Vea, Lorenzo Carter,  Josey Jewell -- in the first three rounds; use a couple of picks on weapons -- deep WR corps...and I will get us further this time. 

 

So there's my logic -- flawed as it may be...if you go for one of the top 3 in draft you are giving up everything to get them.  I think this strategy gives you two potential QB starters who are both young and an unprecedented opportunity to get younger where you need to....

 

 

 

--

Edited February 22, 2018 by JoeF

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Brissett had a decent year in his second year (which was essentially his rookie year) with a bad team.  59% completion, over 3000 yards, 13TD to 7 INT.  He was running for his life a lot.

 

McCarron is really smart, has little wear and tear.  He is accurate, high intellect and a good leader.  He is into the game.  He learned in 2015 when he got pounded against really good competition in a playoff push (12 sacks in 90 attempts) to get rid of the ball quickly. 

 

Just speculating but I think McD is suggesting to Beane to keep the picks;  get me some front 7 D with three of the 5 help -- Vita Vea, Lorenzo Carter,  Josey Jewell -- in the first three rounds; use a couple of picks on weapons -- deep WR corps...and I will get us further this time. 

 

So there's my logic -- flawed as it may be...if you go for one of the top 3 in draft you are giving up everything to get them.  I think this strategy gives you two potential starters who are both young and an unprecedented opportunity to get younger where you need to....-

 

Fair enough.  I asked, you explained.

 

I hate it, personally

 

I think Brissett is one of the Hoodie's biennial "take a shot at a 2-4 rd QB every other year and vote the low man off the island".  He actually played some nice games, but they were generally against struggling teams like Houston, SF (early year) and Cleveland. I think his ceiling is low level starter.  Indy fans are discussing whether he can be developed to be a capable backup.  3000 yds doesn't sound too awful - until you realize that's over 15 games, and yes, he did have 2 games where he passed for <100 yds.

 

That's where Peterman is to me, as well, guy who might be a capable backup someday, until he proves otherwise with improved performance in preseason, open TC practices, and glimpses in games.

 

McCarron, in his 3 starts, racked up a mighty 184 ypg throwing to the likes of AJ Green and Mohammed Sanu as WR.  Again, it's not that he's trash, but I I have to wonder, even with the "Lewis Loyalty Program" theory explained to me, if he developed to where he was slinging it out in OTA/TC/Preseason why the Bengals wouldn't give him a shot, as badly as Dalton was playing for much of last year.

I'm not saying 1 or 2 of those guys wouldn't be an acceptable shot, I just want us to make ONE shot on goal that isn't a retread or someone else's leftovers.

 

And frankly, I don't see one of those guys that has the clear potential to be an upgrade to TT, and I'm certainly etting for an upgrade.

 

Reich is on record saying he does not want to trade Brissett.

[White Linen]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So to the OP's question: who is your personal choice?

 

Mayfield at the combine measured 6' 3/8" and 9 1/2" hands.

Russ Wilson is 5'11", Drew Brees is 6'0".  Aaron Rodgers is 6'2".

 

This has already been discussed but I'll repeat myself.  I forgot Mayfield measured in at the Senior Bowl at just over 6'.  Wilson and Brees both have massive hands at 10.25" so they have one number (height) they over came.  Rodgers has small hands too but he's a bit taller.  I think when you're challenged on two very important physical traits it's something you have to overcome.  It's not nothin'.  Let's also temper putting Russ Wilson in the same company as Rodgers and Brees - at least not yet, he's got some work to do. 

 

 

I like Josh Allen personally.  

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

There is a SUBSTANTIAL difference to say there are and advantages and disadvantages then saying something is the direct root of the success or failure.  Advantages and disadvantages come with wide degrees of impact.  

 

You on the other hand are making a case that Bakers predicted failure by you is predicated on him being too short to succeed and directly tied to his height.  It is complete non sense to state that Baker cant succeed or is most likely not to succeed due to his height when he is taller than or barely shorter than 3 of the top 4 NFL QB's playing right now, 2 of which are already 2 of the all time greatest in history.

 

As far as the different era comment, it absolutely is a different era in this regard.  With guys like Brees and Wilson having massively successful careers in the NFL, its impacting how teams look at shorter prospects that are outside that prototypical size stereotype.  You seem to get hung up on the word "era" as if it needs to mean some massive time gap that needs to predate guys playing now.  Players come along that change the how teams value or evaluate positions, and it doesn't take decades for the to happen.  So, its absolutely a different era right now because if not for the successes of guys like Brees, Wilson, and Rogers who are all undersized in comparison to the ideal prototype then guys like Baker wouldn't have first round consideration no matter how good his college tape was.  

 

And again, there is not a single person in the world who would say Rogers would suck if he was 1 inch shorter like Baker...not one.  Just like no one is going to say that if Baker was 1 or two inches taller he would have been good if he eventually busts.  Baker will either be a guy who can read defenses, avoid the pressure and deliver the ball accurately or not.  That one inch is NOT in any way going to be the determining factor on his ability to do that.  

 

All good, we don't have to see eye to eye on this, but I couldn't disagree with your stance more, which is fine.  Time will tell how his career plays out...but his career arc will not be a function of him being between 6' and 6'-1" IMO

e·ra

ˈirə,ˈerə/a  long and distinct period of history with a particular feature or characteristic.

 

I guess I got hung up on knowing exactly what the word means.  Era means exactly what I said and actually not how you are trying to define it at all.  

 

Don't make things up to make yourself feel better.  I never said he cannot succeed - I said he has barriers which is an obstacle.  Disadvantage is extremely similar.  So there is a difference from what you speak of above but it's not what I said.  

 

Lucky for you, if he does fail,  there's no way to measure if or how much his height and hand size (which you conveniently, consistently leave out of your posts) contributed.

 

You don't think he'd be considered up there with Rosen and Darnold if he was 6'4"?  

Edited February 22, 2018 by White Linen

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, macaroni said:

I understand peoples reluctance about his personal conduct, but as far as I'm concerned it's more important how he conducted himself AFTER the public intoxication thing (is he still a party animal ... has he laid low and behaved himself). As far as that college rah-rah crap .... the flag planting ... the grabbing his crotch ... it's just college rah-rah crap; as far as I'm concerned it wouldn't be a disqualifying problem UNLESS during the interview process we find out that he doesn't understand the difference between whipping the student body into a frenzy with college hijinks and being a professional football player

 

I think this anecdote says a lot about how college football players (Mayfield's peers in the "not for long") see the flag incident:

"This is the guy who ran to the middle of Ohio State’s field after a 2017 win and symbolically planted an Oklahoma flag on the logo at midfield. He is, as always, a prisoner to the moment.  This week, he had to answer for that last one. On a charter bus ferrying the North team to and from practices at Ladd-Peebles stadium, two Ohio State players surrounded Mayfield in his seat, blocking him in. Defensive linemen Jalyn Holmes and Tyquan Lewis stared down Mayfield, and one of them broke the silence: “What’s wrong with you, bro?” A pregnant moment passed, then the three burst out laughing. “That’s what you get for kicking my ass the year before!” Mayfield said, referring to the Sooners’ 45-24 loss to the Buckeyes in Norman back in September 2016. The Ohio State pair admitted they probably would have done the same thing had the tables been turned.

 

And about Mayfield: he's not going to be intimidated, but he's not going to bluster either.  He said the one thing that could defuse the situation completely.

[Solomon Grundy]

52 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

(thumbs down doesn't do it for me)

 

But to be fair to you...can you explain how this strategy differs from the Bills traditional MO of signing scraps from FA or other team's backup rosters such as Fitzpatrick/Kolb/Orton/TJax/Lewis/Taylor etc etc?

 

 

 

"League doesn't love running QB that much" would explain why Prescott fell to the 4th, but he was drafted....

 

So I don't know sh*t from shinola with college football, but there are a bunch of articles around about how Petrino prefers to run a pro-style offense and has worked with Jackson to put him under center at times and to go through progressions.  This for example.  Is that all baloney or is that what Louisville does?  All the film I've seen so far shows Jackson in shotgun, but he does clearly make progressions.  And boy howdy can he throw a bullet into a tight window.

 

What I'd really like to see is a film cutup of Lamar Jackson that is only passing plays.  His runs are so spectacular that I find myself watching for him to run instead of focusing on what his feet and eyes are doing.

Here's his passing TDs from 2017. Pay attention to the touch, placement of balls.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

This has already been discussed but I'll repeat myself.  I forgot Mayfield measured in at the Senior Bowl at just over 6'.  Wilson and Brees both have massive hands at 10.25" so they have one number (height) they over came.  Rodgers has small hands too but he's a bit taller.  I think when you're challenged on two very important physical traits it's something you have to overcome.  It's not nothin'.  Let's also temper putting Russ Wilson in the same company as Rodgers and Brees - at least not yet, he's got some work to do. 

 

 

I like Josh Allen personally.  

e·ra

ˈirə,ˈerə/a  long and distinct period of history with a particular feature or characteristic.

 

I guess I got hung up on knowing exactly what the word means.  Era means exactly what I said and actually not how you are trying to define it at all.  

 

Don't make things up to make yourself feel better.  I never said he cannot succeed - I said he has barriers which is an obstacle.  Disadvantage is extremely similar.  So there is a difference from what you speak of above but it's not what I said.  

 

Lucky for you, if he does fail,  there's no way to measure if or how much his height and hand size (which you conveniently, consistently leave out of your posts) contributed.

 

Yes Lucky for me since its a fallacy in the first place. 

 

And sorry you didn't understand the implication of the word era.  Glad you googled it though to help you misapply it more lol.  And a NEW era begins at the END of an OLD era.  So I am literally cracking up how this still escapes you to the point you felt you needed to google and post the definition of an "era" as if the NEW era is somehow only conceptualized to be a long period of time despite the very word of NEW in front of ERA.

 

So do you need me to post the definition of "new" so you can understand the implication of "NEW era"?  Especially when referencing we are in a new era of where QB's like Wilson, Brees, and Rogers have shifted how QB's in their height range are evaluated?

 

But by all means, please keep posting more definitions.  I went from done with this conversation and agreed to disagree, but now I am just getting amused.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[Solomon Grundy]

More for Hapless

Edited February 22, 2018 by the skycap

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Here's his passing TDs from 2017. Pay attention to the touch, placement of balls.

 

 

 

Anyone who watches this should never compare him to TT again.  Ive been saying this a lot, he is an underrated passer who IMO is already a better passer than TT.  Lamar is who I want if we stay at 21.  If we move up, I want Baker.

[baskingridgebillsfan]

ABT

[Solomon Grundy]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Anyone who watches this should never compare him to TT again.  Ive been saying this a lot, he is an underrated passer who IMO is already a better passer than TT.  Lamar is who I want if we stay at 21.  If we move up, I want Baker.

I think he's gonna be a special player. Picture him with the playaction game with Shady.

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, the skycap said:

I think he's gonna be a special player. Picture him with the playaction game with Shady.

 

Lamar is that one prospect right now who can really rocket up the draft boards with a big combine and/or workouts.  In most drafts I think he would be one of the top 2 candidates, but this is an unusually deep draft of first round quality QB prospects.  

 

I am very intrigued by him to say the least.  Right now I have my draft rankings of QBs to be Baker, Rosen, Darnold, Lamar, Allen, Mason.  But for me Lamar is really close to Darnold, who ironically was the guy I was most excited about to begin the year.  But watching Darnold all year just really showed me is not quite the polished prospect we expected and he makes a lot of poor decisions for a guy at the top of the draft board.  

 

I am sure the combine, workouts, etc will shake that ranking up order a bit before the draft gets here, but as of now thats how I see them.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

43 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Here's his passing TDs from 2017. Pay attention to the touch, placement of balls.

 

 

 

This was very helpful, Thanks! 

 

-No.  Jackson is not a WR.  He's a QB.  He can throw.  He can actually throw quite well.

-His footwork from shotgun is actually quite a bit better than I expected

-There were some snaps under center in there.  His footwork from under center um...needs ketsup.  He's not missing his throws, but he hasn't yet "put it together".  Some of that may be the WR not used to coordinating the timing.  He's trying.

36 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Anyone who watches this should never compare him to TT again.  Ive been saying this a lot, he is an underrated passer who IMO is already a better passer than TT.  Lamar is who I want if we stay at 21.  If we move up, I want Baker.

 

That's kind of setting a low bar.  I would say he's a better passer than Rudolph, and has better progressions, footwork, and pocket sense than I expected.  He scans the field and finds the open guy when he has time.  He still needs to work on not squirting out of the pocket so much, but he can feel the pressure and move to avoid it like anything and that's the part I think can't be taught well.

 

I'm afraid McBeane has their heart set on a nice pocket-ready statue though.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan