Brady's Legacy

[Success]

You know why he’s the GOAT?

 

Because while many won’t admit it, they were completely nervous when he had just over a minute with no timeouts, and had to go 92 yards AND get a 2 point conversion.

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

No I don't agree because it was the rules of the time. There were other great teams opposing them, also with HOF talent. Again you are changing the argument to team composition.

You only had to beat 1 or 2 good teams. Now you have to beat a bunch. 

 

I’m not changing it to a team comparison. We can’t compare stats because his are inflated for the era (and superior). We can’t factor in winning now either? There is nothing that he doesn’t have on the field. 

[CuddyDark]

13 minutes ago, Magox said:

There is no reasonable question in my mind that he will go down as the GOAT.   He's done more with less and the sheer amount of comebacks and the sort of comebacks is very Jordanesque in the sense that he just takes over.   Elway was great and talented but doesn't come close in the conversation as GOAT and Montana was a great system fit for the 49ers but I don't believe for a split second that he would have been as successful as Brady with the Patriots.

So you have to believe Matt Cassel is better than Montana?

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You only had to beat 1 or 2 good teams. Now you have to beat a bunch. 

 

I’m not changing it to a team comparison. We can’t compare stats because his are inflated for the era (and superior). We can’t factor in winning now either? There is nothing that he doesn’t have on the field. 

Are you serious? Pats probably play in the worst division in football history. They get home field every year because their division sucks. Brady never has to play a HOF QB in his division or in the AFC. The only time he plays a real QB is in the SB and then he's probably only faced a HOF QB 4 times in the SB if you count Wilson and he's 2-2.

Edited February 5, 2018 by CuddyDark

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

So you have to believe Matt Cassel is better than Montana?

Are you serious? Pats probably play in the worst division in football history. They get home field every year because their division sucks. Brady never has to play a HOF QB in his division or in the AFC. The only time he plays a real QB is in the SB and then he's probably only faced a HOF QB 4 times in the SB if you count Wilson and he's 2-2.

Roethelisberger is a HOF QB. Rivers may be as well. Peyton Manning absolutely is. 

[T-Bomb]

1 hour ago, mattynh said:

yet here we are talking about Montana, what has he done lately?

 

I have no idea, I don't think about Joe Montana, I don't even think about Jim Kelly.

[Matt_In_NH]

4 minutes ago, T-Bomb said:

 

I have no idea, I don't think about Joe Montana, I don't even think about Jim Kelly.

 

But you are one random person.   

[CuddyDark]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Roethelisberger is a HOF QB. Rivers may be as well. Peyton Manning absolutely is. 

Interested to see Brady in Championship games against Peyton. Probably even if I had to guess.

[T-Bomb]

2 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

But you are one random person.   

 

I think most NFL fans don't give a crap about Joe Montana, just like they won't give a crap about Brady when he's done.

 

The NFL and its media minions have a vested interest in silliness such as legacies. I think most NFL fans would not care at all if it wasn't in their faces.

Edited February 5, 2018 by T-Bomb

[CuddyDark]

18 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Roethelisberger is a HOF QB. Rivers may be as well. Peyton Manning absolutely is. 

Wait, so Peyton is 3-1 against Brady in AFC championship games? Is that true? Just more reasons why he's not the GOAT. Eli, Peyton 5-1 in championship games against Brady. Is that right?

Edited February 5, 2018 by CuddyDark

[Matt_In_NH]

6 minutes ago, T-Bomb said:

 

I think most NFL fans don't give a crap about Joe Montana, just like they won't give a crap about Brady when he's done.

 

The NFL and its media minions have a vested interest in silliness such as legacies. I think most NFL fans would not care at all if it wasn't in their faces.

 

But they watch all those NFL films specials they are on NFL network all the time.  If they did not care, why would they watch?

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I think it's funny that people counted Nick Foles out in recent years because, supposedly, his brilliant 2013 season was all about Chip Kelly.   Yet many of Foles detractors love Montana.  Montana was  just as much a product of Bill Walsh as Foles was a product of Kelly.  Chip didn't throw the ball back in '13!   But I digress - this thread is about Brady vs. Montana.

 

Football is a team sport so I don't care about SB winning percentage as much as I care about the entire body of work.   Brady passed for 500+ yards yesterday with 3 TDs and a passer rating of 115.  What more can you ask?  It wasn't his fault the Pats defense was shredded.  

 

I saw Montana play many times...   IMHO, Brady is better.  His mastery over an extended number of years is simply amazing.

 

But if Montana played today, Brady would still be considered his better by most  observers.  

 

Why is the 80s the yardstick?

You're probably right that Brady would be considered the better QB if Montana were to play today, but I certainly would not think it'd be by a landslide.  But if you take Brady and put him into a world before 'in the grasp' and all the QB protection rules had evolved the general ethics of the game, he would have been a forgotten footnote, I believe.

 

For better, worse, or whatever, one of the underlying currents of 50's -80's...90's football was to decimate the opposing team's QB.  It wasn't until the NFL saw some of their players as 'stars', who needed to be protected... because people want to see stars play, that through force of rules- in the grasp being the most blatant, they set sail on changing the mentality of the game.

 

Brady time and again shows he gets rattled, bad, under pressure.  I don't think he'd be in any discussions if he'd played in Montana's era or before.  He's beyond great under the current ruleset, he's mind-blowing scary good, but I couldn't possibly consider him goat.  Greatest of his era- you bet your bippy!

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Wait, so Peyton is 3-1 against Brady in AFC championship games? Is that true? Just more reasons why he's not the GOAT. Eli, Peyton 5-1 in championship games against Brady. Is that right?

3-2 and Brady is 11-6 vs. Peyton. What was Elway vs. Kelly? 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, CuddyDark said:

If you change the rules so that the offense is scoring more. So that the WR and QB of this generation after the rules changes are the ALL Time leaders, how can you say a player who's benefiting from the changes is better than players who played against tougher defenses and tougher defensive rules? I'd take half the HOF QB's before the rule changes to be better than Brady in this new NFL.

They changed the rules so that the stats favor players in this generation so citing stats is ridiculous. Also Every team with a QB centric team from the last century could do what the Pats are doing. The game is easier for QB's and offense as a whole. It's not even comparable to the players from the last century.

I say this with respect and kindness: You are one crazy hombre!

 

Your response remains vague. Name some of the qbs you believe are better than Brady. 

[CuddyDark]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

3-2 and Brady is 11-6 vs. Peyton. What was Elway vs. Kelly? 

Only game I remember in the playoffs was in the early 1990's. The one when Elway got hurt.

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

I say this with respect and kindness: You are one crazy hombre!

 

Your response remains vague. Name some of the qbs you believe are better than Brady. 

In this era no one. In the past I'd take Montana, Elway over Brady. But it's not a fair comparison because they play in different eras.

[oldmanfan]

It's like comparing two piles of gold.  I think Brady is GOAT but Montana was clearly fantastic as well

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Only game I remember in the playoffs was in the early 1990's. The one when Elway got hurt.

In this era no one. In the past I'd take Montana, Elway over Brady. But it's not a fair comparison because they play in different eras.

If you prefer Montana or Elway that's fine. Both were great qbs. Where I disagree with you is that although there were differences in the rules then I consider them of the same era. You can just as easily make a good case that they were in different eras. I still contend that Brady is the best qb in the modern era which stretches over the Elway and Montana period. But although I disagree your preference is still reasonable. My understanding is that Elway was one of the highest rated qbs entering the draft. 

[BringBackOrton]

Brady's legacy is tarnished at this point. 5-3 is really not that good. Coming up small in the biggest stage is never a good thing.

[Success]

6 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Brady's legacy is tarnished at this point. 5-3 is really not that good. Coming up small in the biggest stage is never a good thing.

Not serious, right?

[section122]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Brady is the best ever and it isn’t that close. I wish that he wasn’t but you put his resume next to anyone else and he blows it out of the water. 

 

I think if you remove the team success it bumps Brady down. I feel like Peyton Manning on the Patriots would have won at least as much.  If you take out the super bowl wins and just look at gross stats then:

 

Brady is behind Favre, Peyton, and Drew Brees in passing yards

Brady is behind the same 3 for completions

Brady is behind Manning and Favre for tds

Brady is behind Rodgers and Wilson for passer rating

Brady is behind Brees, Stafford, Peyton, Luck, and Ryan for passing ypg

Brady is tied for 25th in career ypa

If you like next gen stats then:

Brady is behind Rodgers and Peyton for any/a

Brady is tied for 13th in career passer rating

 

Peyton and Brees routinely rank higher than Brady in career stats.  Neither have had the team success or quality team around them that Brady had but I don't think Brady did anything they couldn't have done.  It's hard for me to say Brady is the unquestioned goat when there are 2 contemporaries that are arguably better than him.  Brady has one of the greatest coaches of all time and his brilliance of taking below market deals allows better teams to be put around him.  Manning and Brees screwed the pooch in that aspect.  

 

I really dislike comparing across eras as each time is such a different game so I won't get into Marino/Montana vs. Brady.  Brady really impressed me last night.  He had so many throws falling away or just straight up not looking and they were dimes.  It does amaze me how wide open New England receivers always seem to be but that is a different conversation for a different day...  Brady is an absolute stud.  I just can't wait for the ped info to surface 

 

As an aside I was really surprised that Favre kept coming up in these lists.  I know he played forever and had the ironman streak but he rarely if ever gets brought up in this conversation and he is top 3 in most categories!  I think in my mind I have under rated him.

 

 

[K-9]

12 hours ago, Dadonkadonk said:

Gretzky, Jordan, Brady, Nicklaus, Serena Williams, and Federer  in that order for greatest of all time in their sports. Woods was on track to take out Jack.  There is no one player in baseball that is that much better than all the rest.  

One day, Tiger Woods’ grandson shall play tight end for the Buffalo Bills. This is known.