Brady's Legacy

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

The cheating isn't weak.

They were CAUGHT and punished by the NFL on two separate occasions multiple years apart.

That's not a weak excuse.

 

The ref bias is clear and obvious in many crucial situations.

 

Does Brady make some big time throws?

Yep. Some of the best I've ever seen.

 

My argument is not that he isn't an excellent QB, absolutely HoF.

 

I don't think he's the GOAT based on my stated criteria.

 

Again, it's all opinion and splitting hairs at this point of greatness.

 

I think in the end, as I said earlier, comparing generations/eras is tough due to rule changes.

 

If I made a list, without any particular order, consisting of:

 

Brady

Montana

Young

Favre

Elway

Kelly

Rodgers

Marino

Manning

Rodgers

 

 

(Not saying thats my top 10, just 10 greats I thought of)

 

Would anybody complain if they had ANY of those QBs locked up in their prime?

I don't think so.

I think there's a lot of arguments to be made for who the goat is, and it all depends on what you value.

Just rings?

Performance in big games?

Performance over a career?

How bad was the rest of the team?

What about the coach?

 

There's a lot that can be debated.

In the end it's splitting hairs.

The reason that Brady is the GOAT is because he has what no one else does. There are a lot of guys that were great but put anyone’s resume next to Brady’s and it’s not the same. He has the stats and the wins. 

2 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I like how you keep saying "it's impossible to argue" when it's clearly not impossible.

 

-the numbers don't mean much compared to some of the older guys when you adjust for era... Marino is the stat king if you want to go that route

 

-it's a fact that they were caught cheating publicly on 2 occasions. That's a fact.

 

Those are things that I use to refer him being the goat, so no, it's not "impossible" to argue

Okay, so we are not going to count the numbers because they are inflated by the era. We can throw them out and pretend that they don’t count but his numbers would hold up in any era. Marino is the stat king but Brady him Trumped. Montana was considered the great winner, Brady has him trumped. 

 

They played with under inflated footballs and spied on a Rams practice. If you think that’s why they’ve went to 8 Super Bowls and won god knows how many division titles, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

I have said that it is impossible to argue otherwise and I am sticking with that. If you want to name the guys better we can debate. Right now, I’m hearing a lot of “he isn’t the best” but no one has tried to make a case that a particular player is better.

[CuddyDark]

11 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You are making my point for me. Elway won for 15 years. He won a lot less than Brady did. If you want stats, Brady has them all. If you want wins, he has that too. It’s really impossible to argue anyone else. I would be curious as to whom you would have ahead of him? We can put them side-by-side and even try to normalize it for the era. Brady winning in the FA era though will be difficult to match.

 

Brady’s receivers in that game yesterday were 2 undrafted free agents. One of them was a lacrosse player in college (also Fitz went to Harvard and Jack Nicklaus is Nick O’Leary’s grandfather). 

He won a lot less because the game was harder for offenses. That's my point. You can't say players who played in the era prior to rule changes are not as good or better because it's a different game. You can't take out the ease of offensive football in this era. Brady is a great. He is not the GOAT because he plays in this era. I wouldn't even compare players and say he's better or he's better. My point was how can anyone claim Brady is the GOAT and not acknowledge he has an advantage based on the era he plays in.

 

If we're talking about my top players at the position. Meaning those I watched, I'd have

 

1. Montana

2. Elway

3. Brady

4. Peyton

5. Young

[SouthNYfan]

9 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The reason that Brady is the GOAT is because he has what no one else does. There are a lot of guys that were great but put anyone’s resume next to Brady’s and it’s not the same. He has the stats and the wins. 

Okay, so we are not going to count the numbers because they are inflated by the era. We can throw them out and pretend that they don’t count but his numbers would hold up in any era. Marino is the stat king but Brady him Trumped. Montana was considered the great winner, Brady has him trumped. 

 

They played with under inflated footballs and spied on a Rams practice. If you think that’s why they’ve went to 8 Super Bowls and won god knows how many division titles, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

I have said that it is impossible to argue otherwise and I am sticking with that. If you want to name the guys better we can debate. Right now, I’m hearing a lot of “he isn’t the best” but no one has tried to make a case that a particular player is better.

 

Once again I will say this.

 

He didn't have Marino beat for stats, he has had a better defense and running game than Marino.

Era inflation taken into account he doesn't have Marino beat for stats.

 

They were publicly caught cheating twice.

Spygate wasn't about video taping a single Rams practice, there were multiple incidents. That's the issue.

 

I cannot give a guy the goat title when he's part of a documented cheating regime.

You can.

That's fair.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Success]

3 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

Montana is still the greatest to me.

 

Brady would have never survived the 80s and 90s version of the NFL.  

 

The rule changes allowed for his longevity, not kale smoothies.

People always say that, but Brady is one tough player.  We have all seen him take a beating in some games- and he seems to get even better when that happens.

 

He is more cerebral than Montana was.  I have never seen anyone with such a command of the offense.

[TheFunPolice]

Brady being 5-3 and hopefully playing like a 41 year old QB (and maybe 42 year old QB) and going like 9-7 or 10-6 the next 2 years and losing in the wild card or divisional rounds sounds a lot better than 6 rings and going out with 3 SBs in 4 years.

 

In order for another QB to come along and win 5 he has to win 3 Super Bowls by year 10 of his career to have a shot at it. So Brady's legacy is secure no matter what, but at least he has come up short 3 times now.

 

Ironically, since Brady's offense became unstoppable he is 2-3 in the Super Bowl without that great defense NE had for the first 3.

[CuddyDark]

3 minutes ago, Success said:

People always say that, but Brady is one tough player.  We have all seen him take a beating in some games- and he seems to get even better when that happens.

 

He is more cerebral than Montana was.  I have never seen anyone with such a command of the offense.

He never takes a beating because you can't spear, take out his legs, or hit him in the helmet. It's not the same game.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Once again I will say this.

 

He didn't have Marino beat for stats, he has had a better defense and running game than Marino.

Era inflation taken into account he doesn't have Marino beat for stats.

 

They were publicly caught cheating twice.

Spygate wasn't about video taping a single Rams practice, there were multiple incidents. That's the issue.

 

I cannot give a guy the goat title when he's part of a documented cheating regime.

You can.

That's fair.

Let's agree to disagree.

What is the number that we apply to “era inflation?” Brady has thrown for 5,000 more yards and 68 more TDs than Marino (and is still going). If you want to give him the stat king crown with inferior stats, go for it. I would argue that Brees is the stat king.

 

You think that they won a lot because of cheating. I think that the cheating is BS but not why they won. 

 

You said that he isn’t the GOAT. You still have named the players that are better. If you do, we can stack their resumes side-by-side and debate it.

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

What is the number that we apply to “era inflation?” Brady has thrown for 5,000 more yards and 68 more TDs than Marino (and is still going). If you want to give him the stat king crown with inferior stats, go for it. I would argue that Brees is the stat king.

 

You think that they won a lot because of cheating. I think that the cheating is BS but not why they won. 

 

You said that he isn’t the GOAT. You still have named the players that are better. If you do, we can stack their resumes side-by-side and debate it.

It's impossible because Brady can only be compared to players in his era. Anyone else didn't play the same game. It's not even the same sport.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I didn't pay attention at the end of the game maybe someone can help ... 

 

Did Tom Brady walk off the field immediately into the tunnel?  

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan

[Success]

Just now, ShadyBillsFan said:

I didn't pay attention at the end of the game maybe someone can help ... 

 

Did Tom Brady walk off the field immediately into the tunnel?  

He did.  Kind of a poor sport when he loses.

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

I didn't pay attention at the end of the game maybe someone can help ... 

 

Did Tom Brady walk off the field immediately into the tunnel?  

Yes.

[Kirby Jackson]

15 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

He won a lot less because the game was harder for offenses. That's my point. You can't say players who played in the era prior to rule changes are not as good or better because it's a different game. You can't take out the ease of offensive football in this era. Brady is a great. He is not the GOAT because he plays in this era. I wouldn't even compare players and say he's better or he's better. My point was how can anyone claim Brady is the GOAT and not acknowledge he has an advantage based on the era he plays in.

 

If we're talking about my top players at the position. Meaning those I watched, I'd have

 

1. Montana

2. Elway

3. Brady

4. Peyton

5. Young

Thank you for your list. Winning in the FA era is more difficult though. You are constantly turning over your roster. That ‘49ers team was largely the same for a decade. They built a good team and kept them together. Brady doesn’t have that luxury. He has new guys coming in all of the time. Brady didn’t have Jerry Rice either. 

 

Elway might be the most physically gifted QB to ever play but he didn’t win a thing until he got a HOF RB. Brady’s RBs are James White, Rex Burkhead and Dion Lewis. 

[Success]

6 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

He never takes a beating because you can't spear, take out his legs, or hit him in the helmet. It's not the same game.

I’d still call him a tough player - physically and mentally.  I don’t think he would have had a harder time in Montana’s era

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, Success said:

He did.  Kind of a poor sport when he loses.

 

Just now, CuddyDark said:

Yes.

that whiny little B word 

[Watkins101]

Yes, his record may be worse, but he made it to 8 superbowls. That is double Monatanna's

[SouthNYfan]

4 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

It's impossible because Brady can only be compared to players in his era. Anyone else didn't play the same game. It's not even the same sport.

 

Which is exactly what I've been saying 

Kirby said it's impossible to argue so he's right

I'm not going to bother

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

It's impossible because Brady can only be compared to players in his era. Anyone else didn't play the same game. It's not even the same sport.

We can throw stats out (even though they will help his case) and he is still beyond anyone else.

 

Look, I hate Tom Brady as much as anyone. I despise him. With that being said I’m not going to let my disdain cloud my judgement. He is the best ever. When he is done the gap will be even wider. He’s not chasing QBs anymore he’s chasing MJ and others considered the greatest athlete of all-time.

[CuddyDark]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

Thank you for your list. Winning in the FA era is more difficult though. You are constantly turning over your roster. That ‘49ers team was largely the same for a decade. They built a good team and kept them together. Brady doesn’t have that luxury. He has new guys coming in all of the time. Brady didn’t have Jerry Rice either. 

 

Elway might be the most physically gifted QB to ever play but he didn’t win a thing until he got a HOF RB. Brady’s RBs are James White, Rex Burkhead and Dion Lewis. 

Every team in their era had the same "luxury." That's my point. Again you are judging team to team and using that to say Brady is the GOAT. Sounds like you've started making excuses.

2 minutes ago, Success said:

I’d still call him a tough player - physically and mentally.  I don’t think he would have had a harder time in Montana’s era

We can never know. That's the point.

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

He never takes a beating because you can't spear, take out his legs, or hit him in the helmet. It's not the same game.

I think it's really difficult to compare eras.  Brady is obviously the best for this era -- on the deficit side, you lose players to free agency and salary cap considerations make keeping a team together harder; on the favorable side for Brady, he plays in an era that caters to the passing game, I believe there generally is a ref bias for Pats*, and some degree of cheating beyond the norm (I take trying to steal signals okay for both sides) has benefitted his record.  Mainly, I believe Brady would have been broke in half in the seventies and if there is Pats* bias, there is also Brady treatment.  You can give Cam Newton multiple concussions, and not just because he runs a lot, and its okay, but if you breathe hard on Brady, you risk a fifteen yard penalty.

[Jauronimo]

Brady's legacy took a big hit last night.  He will retire with the most super bowl victories but also high on the list for super bowl losses, much like Jack Nicklaus who has the most 2nd place finishes in majors.  Golden Bear during the regular season, folding chair when it counts.