What's Plan C for QB?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

I’m quite certain there has been massive changes all over the front office including the med staff.

 

I'm not trying to be a tool here, sixpack, but I wish you'd say more about the source of your certainty.  It would actually make my day to be persuaded.  No Joke!

 

See, when I look at the Bills Front Office on Buffalobills.com, I see Eric Ciano still listed as "Head Strength and Conditioning" and Bud Carpenter still listed as "Director of Athletic Training Operations", and I think those guys have been here a right few years so...no change at the top.

 

Then I know that in a relatively small city like Buffalo, it only supports a handful of top specialist physicians.  Even in St Louis, there's one orthopedist considered the top guy all the athletes go to locally for shoulders and knees and such.  Now of course, you can go anywhere in the country for treatment but I think the rules on a pre-draft or pre-signing physical are pretty much you gotta do it at the team's facility.

 

It would truly rock my world to believe as you do, so please share.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Saxum]

40 minutes ago, John from Hemet said:

Plan C is probably TT

 

Plan A is drafting a QB with reasonable use of resources

Plan B is a free agent signing or less expensive trade with another team.

Plan C is a Tyrod with another free agent to compete in camp

Plan D is looking for a QB in Arena leagues, CFL, etc

.....

Plan Z is Peteredman and tanking for next year

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Then I know that in a relatively small city like Buffalo, it only supports a handful of top specialist physicians.  Even in St Louis, there's one orthopedist considered the top guy all the athletes go to locally for shoulders and knees and such.  Now of course, you can go anywhere in the country for treatment but I think the rules on a pre-draft or pre-signing physical are pretty much you gotta do it at the team's facility.

 

Buffalo has more than its share per population size dues to University and medical research centers there.  

[John from Riverside]

27 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

 

Ive been making my case for Alex Smith for a while now. I, for one, would actually be pretty darn excited if we landed him. He wouldn't end the search for a franchise QB but he'd instantly be one of the best QBs the Bills have had in years and I really think he'd be a great bridge QB for us and would have a lot to teach Peterman + whatever other young QB they inevitably draft (hopefully this year). 

 

I think having such a knowledgeable veteran QB like Smith would be an invaluable resource to any younger QBs the Bills have on their roster. I think it could go a long way towards developing a rookie properly. He'd also allow us to keep a rookie off the field for a while, build up the team and then be able to insert that rookie into a better situation (with a stronger O line, WR corps, defense etc). 

 

For once this actually looks like a decent year to need a QB. My hopes are high that we land one (and hopefully a good one at that). 

Rush will agree with you...till he is actually on the team and he starts tearing him apart for his short comings

 

Personally I like the idea as long as it includes a drafted qb (by at least the 2nd round) to groom.   I think Peterman is better then he has shown......I think Alex Smith can get it done.....but we need to think about the future now.

[KingRex]

18 minutes ago, xRUSHx said:

IMO he can sit and learn and will be trade bait later on while giving insurance of another QB on the roster with that cheap rookie contract. I do not agree he is trash

Ha no but he could turn into a draft pick later on after a year or 2 of learning. Could also become a solid backup here if one of the two go down.

The Bills braintrust not only took the totally unprecedented move of throwing a 5th round selected rookie to the wolves, but even did this stupidly by announcing this early the week before the game so the Chargers players and DC could gameplan , practice and visualize fooling and intimidating a 5th round selected rookie.

 

I think any rationale person has to at least accept the likelihood they may have ruined NP as a player or at the very least made his teammates have no confidence in his ability to produce. I like our choice of DaBoli at OC due to his past success at winning games, but   I have seen no evidence that Daboli offers much in terms of improving our horrible young QB development chops.

 

Trading needed resources to rebuild one of the oldest rosters in the NFL for a draftee who we have to totally remake our training ability looks like simply a bad idea.  We need most likely a bridge QB while we rebuild this team with a younger roster or a vet who can at least survive while we rebuild the OL.

[Saxum]

8 minutes ago, John from Hemet said:

I think Peterman is better then he has shown....

I do not think he could be much worse unless he failed to study playbook like one former Bills QB so Bills cannot be satisfied with him being only full time backup QB.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Limeaid said:

I do not think he could be much worse unless he failed to study playbook like one former Bills QB so Bills cannot be satisfied with him being only full time backup QB.

I dont know man I just think that rookie qbs mature at different rates

 

He definately was not ready when they inserted him......he has some nice attributes to his game and I think that 5 interception game was a fluke......I am def not ready to say is is a starter but I think it is very possible to see him make a jump from year 1 to year 2.

 

He might end of being one of those dependable backup QBs you keep on your roster that comes in and wins 3 game a year for you.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

The fun part of this offseason is there are probably 20-30 possible guys that could be out starting QB. It’s wild to think about.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

12 minutes ago, John from Hemet said:

Rush will agree with you...till he is actually on the team and he starts tearing him apart for his short comings

 

Personally I like the idea as long as it includes a drafted qb (by at least the 2nd round) to groom.   I think Peterman is better then he has shown......I think Alex Smith can get it done.....but we need to think about the future now.

 

.....he certainly has shown glimpses of potential especially with the mental aspect of the game.......physical strength/growth rests with the S&C gang........but he is in the VERY early stages of development with no need to rush as a 5th IMO......let it come to him.............

[KingRex]

8 minutes ago, John from Hemet said:

I dont know man I just think that rookie qbs mature at different rates

 

He definately was not ready when they inserted him......he has some nice attributes to his game and I think that 5 interception game was a fluke......I am def not ready to say is is a starter but I think it is very possible to see him make a jump from year 1 to year 2.

 

He might end of being one of those dependable backup QBs you keep on your roster that comes in and wins 3 game a year for you.

No one can blame NP if his self-confidence needs to be recultivated.  Even if he somehow is bull-headed enuf he can get over 5 INT, he would be a real fool to have any confidence in McD and the braintrust for not only demanding the unprecedented 5th rounder to lead the team to the playoffs, but by announcing the switch early in the week they maximized the time and focus of the Chargers to kill him.

 

Add to that NP has another massive challenge of working to restore the confidence of his teammates (which may take a couple of years of consistent production from NP before his leadership is unquestioned by his teammates.

 

Job #1 for McD/Daboli is probably improving their ability to train young players unless they get an FA vet QB.

[aceman_16]

3 hours ago, Virgil said:

Basically, what would plan C need to include to make you optimistic about our offense next year if we can't land the top 3 guys at QB or FA QB's?

Joe Webb count?

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

If I was allowed to make decisions for this team from now until may

 

plan A is so whatever it takes to sign Cousins

plan B is trade for Alex Smith

plan C is trade up to 1 or 2 and take Darnold 

 

I expect none of these things to actually occur 

[SouthNYfan]

16 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

If I was allowed to make decisions for this team from now until may

 

plan A is so whatever it takes to sign Cousins

plan B is trade for Alex Smith

plan C is trade up to 1 or 2 and take Darnold 

 

I expect none of these things to actually occur 

 

I would be okay with any of that, as long as we get another rookie to groom behind Smith

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They would NEVER deal him for that. If they would take less than 3 1sts it’s because he will never be healthy and no one will pay it. If he is traded it’s because the team believes that he is healthy and that will be the cost. 

Well, they did it before with Peyton Manning, although that wasn't a trade.  And I'm guessing Luck will be in a similar situation to Peyton: workouts will suggest that he's on the road to recovery, but he'll be far from 100% by April (the time at which teams are making these big decisions pre-draft) and there will be serious doubt in Indy about the wisdom of bypassing a top QB in a loaded QB draft and committing to the remainder of that huge Luck contract. And trade partners will be wary for the same reason. So unless he puts on a truly impressive workout before then, I don't see Indy getting that kind of haul (you mentioned 3 first rounders) for him.

[cba fan]

3 hours ago, Limeaid said:

Be honest - some of the salary cap mess is result of current team.

100% right.

 

In fact virtually all the dead cap was Bean's doing.

[The Frankish Reich]

2 minutes ago, cba fan said:

100% right.

 

In fact virtually all the dead cap was Bean's doing.

Depends how you're defining the dead cap problem. If it's Dareus, well, yes, that was Beane's move, but the idea there was it was better than the alternative of simply cutting Dareus. Eric Wood's extension is on Beane too - you have to wonder what the Bills docs told Beane before they signed him to that extension. (I mean, surely they did get medical input?)  But other guys the Bills would probably like to part ways with - Glenn, Clay - would result in dead cap hits that are solely on Whaley, who signed them to stupid contracts to begin with. Tyrod's re-signing didn't seem like a horrible idea at the time, but I will say that it was at least an ordinary bad idea if (as it seems likely now) they were planning to give him one final half season shot to prove he could succeed in a timing-based passing game and then move on if he failed. So now we're stuck with that needless dead cap hit too.

 

Maybe the people criticizing me for saying we should've gone after Nick Foles should keep this in mind before clicking "submit reply" in that thread ...

[MrEpsYtown]

I think plan C is go with Peterman. They would bring in a couple of 25-27 year old vets who haven't really gotten a shot to come in for cheap and compete with Peterman. Guys like Tyler Bray or Matt Barkley. They could bring in a guy like Blaine Gabbert or Tom Savage to "compete." Savage just played for O'Brien who should have similarities to what Daboll is going to do. Bray just developed under Andy Reid for four years, is really big and has a huge arm. 

 

I know these guys don't excite anyone...that's why it is plan C. I think this would all be meant to bring in competition for Peterman, knowing they want him to win the job. 

 

I think Plan A is Alex Smith and trade up for Darnold/Rosen. This could also be trade for Smith and develop Peterman. 

I think Plan B is sign Cousins or another veteran to be the starter for the next 5 years. Bridgewater, Bradford etc. 

[Kirby Jackson]

34 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Well, they did it before with Peyton Manning, although that wasn't a trade.  And I'm guessing Luck will be in a similar situation to Peyton: workouts will suggest that he's on the road to recovery, but he'll be far from 100% by April (the time at which teams are making these big decisions pre-draft) and there will be serious doubt in Indy about the wisdom of bypassing a top QB in a loaded QB draft and committing to the remainder of that huge Luck contract. And trade partners will be wary for the same reason. So unless he puts on a truly impressive workout before then, I don't see Indy getting that kind of haul (you mentioned 3 first rounders) for him.

The Manning situation was different. He was coming off of a spinal fusion surgery and was 36 years old. Luck was considered the best QB prospect since Peyton and they had a chance to land him. It’s apples and oranges.

 

Andrew Luck is 28 and the Colts have the 3rd pick. They are not guaranteed a top 2 QB. A team will have to do a thorough physical and review of his records. The Colts aren’t just going to move on from him. It will take a ton to wrestle him away. Someone will pay it if he is available. I actually think that the Bills make as much sense as anyone. They can give the Colts a LT and 3 1sts. The Bills become an instant contender and still have cap space (and lots in 2019) and 3 other picks in the 1st 3 rounds.

 

A sample:

QB - Luck (trade)

RB - Shady / Sonny Michel (2nd round)

WR - Benjamin/Richardson (fa)/Zay

FB - Dimarco

LT - Dawkins

LG - Richie

C - Groy

RG - Miller

RT - Austin Pasztor (FA)

 

DE - Hughes

DT - Kyle Williams

DT - Harrison Phillips (2nd round)

DE - Shaq

WLB - Milano

MLB - Preston Brown (re-sign)

SLB - Darius Leonard (3rd round) 

CB - Tre White

CB - Gaines (re-sign)

S - Hyde

S - Porter

 

edit: Glenn was traded in this situation so I had to remove him

Edited January 28, 2018 by Kirby Jackson

[K D]

4 hours ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

TT should not be part of any plan, having him on the team next year is a mistake. I rather see a 3-13 year then watch TT for a full year again. He is hindering the development of the offense. 

I said that last year and I got roasted. Yes we made the playoffs (barely) but at what cost to our future? There are 3 QB's at the top of the draft that will probably start this year and we could have had one of them. They really screwed up by trying to compete with a team that was bad on paper and realistically had no chance this season

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

I said that last year and I got roasted. Yes we made the playoffs (barely) but at what cost to our future? There are 3 QB's at the top of the draft that will probably start this year and we could have had one of them. They really screwed up by trying to compete with a team that was bad on paper and realistically had no chance this season

Devil’s Advocate: they still weren’t picking higher than 10. They may have had no shot at the top 4 QBs already. They got that monkey off their back, cleared a lot of cap space and became a more desirable destination in FA. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The Manning situation was different. He was coming off of a spinal fusion surgery and was 36 years old. Luck was considered the best QB prospect since Peyton and they had a chance to land him. It’s apples and oranges.

 

Andrew Luck is 28 and the Colts have the 3rd pick. They are not guaranteed a top 2 QB. A team will have to do a thorough physical and review of his records. The Colts aren’t just going to move on from him. It will take a ton to wrestle him away. Someone will pay it if he is available. I actually think that the Bills make as much sense as anyone. They can give the Colts a LT and 3 1sts. The Bills become an instant contender and still have cap space (and lots in 2019) and 3 other picks in the 1st 3 rounds.

 

A sample:

QB - Luck (trade)

RB - Shady / Sonny Michel (2nd round)

WR - Benjamin/Richardson (fa)/Zay

FB - Dimarco

LT - Dawkins

LG - Richie

C - Groy

RG - Miller

RT - Glenn

 

DE - Hughes

DT - Kyle Williams

DT - Harrison Phillips (2nd round)

DE - Shaq

WLB - Milano

MLB - Preston Brown (re-sign)

SLB - Darius Leonard (3rd round) 

CB - Tre White

CB - Gaines (re-sign)

S - Hyde

S - Porter

As far as Luck's situation, it warrants (re)-reading this:

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2017/11/16/andrew-luck-europe-why-hes-there-and-what-means/871166001/

 

Nothing has really changed since the article was published almost 2.5 months ago. He may need another shoulder surgery. An labrum surgery is still an iffy proposition. It remains kind of a death knell for pitchers. Not so much for QBs (Brees), but still, not a great track record to go by. So maybe it winds up being in between my lowball estimate (a mid-round 1st) and your high-end one (3 firsts). One thing that won't happen though - we can't "give them a LT" (Glenn) without throwing in another draft pick. Right now I'd say Glenn has negative trade value ...