QB: Mike White WKU

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, billspro said:

 His Accuracy in football IQ is what really impresses me. 

 

"His accuracy in football IQ" - can you explain what that means to you?

 

Thanks!

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

12 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

Buddy, is that you Buddy?

That makes no sense. Buddy was the buffoon that took a 4th round qb in round 1 and before any other qb in the draft. The guy took a top 3 bust in Bills history at the top of a draft. 

[NewEra]

He’s decent in the pocket but I can’t help but feel like he’s bailing out on 75% of his throws.  Even on throws where he isn’t pressured it looks like hes going backwards to sideways to avoid something.  If we take him in the 4th I’d be ok with it.  Before that and no thanks.  I have very little confidence in him ever becoming a franchise guy.  Says the guy on the couch.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/27/2018 at 8:29 PM, simool said:

I have watched a bunch of his games and I don't see those problems with him.  Be more careful with the football?  The kid hardly throws interceptions and has never fumbled.  I am not saying he does not have issues, I just don't see those that you pointed out.

 

I think in the film clip Billspro linked I see what he means about "be more careful with the football".  He's aggressive, and he's willing to throw with a defender charging at him or while being hit.  Up to a point, that's good, but that didn't always end well in the clip, and it often ends badly in the NFL - balls sail or get tipped and get picked.  Sometimes the QB needs to throw the ball away and live to make another play.

 

On 1/27/2018 at 8:56 PM, thenorthremembers said:

Again I have no problem talking about him as a third round pick.  But if youre talking about a 1st round pick I want a guy who is less of a roll of the dice.  And outside of stats, Ive watched the games too.  He does a great job of looking off.  But he has some trouble with accuracy at the middle range and he does hold the ball too long from time to time.

 

I'm afraid if we want a QB this year, we will be rolling the dice in one or another regard.  Who do you think is a better odds?

[Ol Dirty B]

On 1/25/2018 at 2:27 PM, starrymessenger said:

 

First QB in a historically bad class. And he wasn't even the best of a bad lot. Sorry but I can't give them any credit for drafting EJ  in any round, not even an A for effort.

 

He was the best. And they traded down and landed McCoy from that extra pick, for what it's worth.

1 hour ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

That makes no sense. Buddy was the buffoon that took a 4th round qb in round 1 and before any other qb in the draft. The guy took a top 3 bust in Bills history at the top of a draft. 

Erik flowers

Aaron Maybin 

Mike Williams

Todd Collins

 

I'm sure I could find plenty others. That's just off the top of my head in the last 20 years or so

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

14 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

He was the best. And they traded down and landed McCoy from that extra pick, for what it's worth.

Erik flowers

Aaron Maybin 

Mike Williams

Todd Collins

 

I'm sure I could find plenty others. That's just off the top of my head in the last 20 years or so

I disagree with most. The expectations are what makes you a bust. Of that list, none of them outside of Mike Williams, were expected to be what EJ was expected to be. Maybe Maybin but a QB is a totally different animal. If you are the first QB taken in a draft, you better be decent. Ej has the footwork of a middle school qb. Can’t throw the same pass twice. Among the worst QBs in the nfl including backups. No reason for that guy to has been taken before round 4. No other team would have taken him anywhere near round 1. He set our team back 3 years and probably caused Marrone to opt out.

[simool]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think in the film clip Billspro linked I see what he means about "be more careful with the football".  He's aggressive, and he's willing to throw with a defender charging at him or while being hit.  Up to a point, that's good, but that didn't always end well in the clip, and it often ends badly in the NFL - balls sail or get tipped and get picked.  Sometimes the QB needs to throw the ball away and live to make another play.

 

 

He is aggressive. I like that. He is not throwing and abnormally high amount of Int's (31 over a 4 year career).  In fact if anyone feels the problem with White is that he needs to take better care of the ball (which is hog excrement), then so does Baker Mayfield, (30 over a 4 year career),  Darnold (22 over a 3 year career), and Rosen (26 over a 3 year career.)

 

Give Darnold and Rosen a 4th year like Mayfield and White have and it would be neck and neck amongst the four.

 

Look I have lived through Jim Kelly and Brett Favre so putting it in perspective, I dont mind the risks he takes.

[Ol Dirty B]

1 minute ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I disagree with most. The expectations are what makes you a bust. Of that list, none of them outside of Mike Williams, were expected to be what EJ was expected to be. Maybe Maybin but a QB is a totally different animal. If you are the first QB taken in a draft, you better be decent. Ej has the footwork of a middle school qb. Can’t throw the same pass twice. Among the worst QBs in the nfl including backups. No reason for that guy to has been taken before round 4. No other team would have taken him anywhere near round 1. He set our team back 3 years and probably caused Marrone to opt out.

 Understandable reasoning. I'm not saying it's wrong, you formed it with solid evidence. I just disagree with some of it. But in the end, it doesn't matter. He was a bust.

[billspro]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

"His accuracy in football IQ" - can you explain what that means to you?

 

Thanks!

 

I think he does a really good job moving the defence with his eyes to create openings for his WRs. I see him move around the pocket well, know where to go with the football against certain coverages, and throw with anticipation. He would be my choice for the next QB of the Bills if I had a say. 

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think in the film clip Billspro linked I see what he means about "be more careful with the football".  He's aggressive, and he's willing to throw with a defender charging at him or while being hit.  Up to a point, that's good, but that didn't always end well in the clip, and it often ends badly in the NFL - balls sail or get tipped and get picked.  Sometimes the QB needs to throw the ball away and live to make another play.

 

 

I'm afraid if we want a QB this year, we will be rolling the dice in one or another regard.  Who do you think is a better odds?

 

I think a lot of that has to do with him having poor talent on the offensive line and the skill positions. He elevated the entire offence to become reasonable. He had one horrible throw for an int in that game, all QBs make bad throws every once in a while. I am willing to roll the dice on a kid if I see pocket presence, accuracy, progression ability, and an NFL arm. White has all of those things. The throws he made in the senior bowl were brilliant, it is rare to see such good anticipation while playing with players you hardly know. 

[billspro]

3 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

I disagree with most. The expectations are what makes you a bust. Of that list, none of them outside of Mike Williams, were expected to be what EJ was expected to be. Maybe Maybin but a QB is a totally different animal. If you are the first QB taken in a draft, you better be decent. Ej has the footwork of a middle school qb. Can’t throw the same pass twice. Among the worst QBs in the nfl including backups. No reason for that guy to has been taken before round 4. No other team would have taken him anywhere near round 1. He set our team back 3 years and probably caused Marrone to opt out.

 

Unfortunately 2013 was a horrible class in general. Trading down for extra picks was a smart move. Some of the best players in the draft came in the second or third round. 

 

In hindsight Kyle Long or Hopkins would have been the best pick. Those would have been considered huge reaches at the time though. 

3 hours ago, simool said:

 

He is aggressive. I like that. He is not throwing and abnormally high amount of Int's (31 over a 4 year career).  In fact if anyone feels the problem with White is that he needs to take better care of the ball (which is hog excrement), then so does Baker Mayfield, (30 over a 4 year career),  Darnold (22 over a 3 year career), and Rosen (26 over a 3 year career.)

 

Give Darnold and Rosen a 4th year like Mayfield and White have and it would be neck and neck amongst the four.

 

Look I have lived through Jim Kelly and Brett Favre so putting it in perspective, I dont mind the risks he takes.

Darnold had 9 picks in year one, 13 in year two. Rosen had 11 in year one, 5 in year two (was injured half the year), and 10 in year three. Baker Mayfield has been below 8 the last three years which is fantastic. Mike White threw 7 picks in 2016 and 8 in 2017 which is not a concerning number for me. When you start getting in the 10+ range it becomes an issue for me. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by billspro

[billspro]

 

Heres another game if anyone is interested. He had a better oline in 2016 and okay skill position players that year. 

[thenorthremembers]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think in the film clip Billspro linked I see what he means about "be more careful with the football".  He's aggressive, and he's willing to throw with a defender charging at him or while being hit.  Up to a point, that's good, but that didn't always end well in the clip, and it often ends badly in the NFL - balls sail or get tipped and get picked.  Sometimes the QB needs to throw the ball away and live to make another play.

 

 

I'm afraid if we want a QB this year, we will be rolling the dice in one or another regard.  Who do you think is a better odds?

Probably goes without saying but all of the consensus first round guys.  I prefer Mayfield and Rudolph to Rosen or Darnold.  If we are talking strictly project guys who really shouldnt see any playing time their first year I think Allen, White, Lauletta, and Ferguson are all guys that could have a career.  With that being said we have one of those type of players on our roster already.  For me its top four guys or bust.

[BigBuff423]

The more I see of White, the more I like him....and while originally I stated "4th round", as the place to get him...I'm thinking now it might take a round earlier, like the 3rd. I know what's being bandied about is trading up, or taking Rudolph and I like Rudolph if he lasts to 21....but given the Wood news, I think more realistically, the Bills will need to wait to get a guy like White. 

 

I think White needs to sit for a year if possible, but I don't think more than a year is healthy any more for QBs. Recent information suggests that the time when a QB would sit behind a Vet for 2 to 3 years, are gone. Moreover, Daboll and so many like him, are adapting the game - the fans' knock on Dennison is being stubborn to stay with his antiquated WCO. I really like the idea of Smith as a bridge QB to whomever, unless the Bills trade way up and then you start the guy and take your licks. 

[Tatonka68]

He is a better QB than the Bills have had in at least 10 years. Jackson and Allen will be busts.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Probably goes without saying but all of the consensus first round guys.  I prefer Mayfield and Rudolph to Rosen or Darnold.  If we are talking strictly project guys who really shouldnt see any playing time their first year I think Allen, White, Lauletta, and Ferguson are all guys that could have a career.  With that being said we have one of those type of players on our roster already.  For me its top four guys or bust.

 

Caveat that I don't watch actual college games so I depend upon film and knowledgeable scouting.

 

Rudolph is playing in a spread offense.  I see some nice throws into tight windows (on occasion - got to watch a while to find one).  As Buffalo716 has noted, a lot of those spread guys don't make it to the NFL.  It's far from a sure bet that he'll be able to read Ds and adjust to the NFL game. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but same is true of Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold.  Air raid offense.  Sometimes those guys adjust (Goff? Prescott?).  Sometimes they don't

 

The film I've seen, Mayfield seems to makes a fair number of high throws his WR go up and get rather than relying on accurate placement.  That doesn't always end well in the NFL where the DBs are just as athletic.  Same true of all this improvise and make it happen stuff.  Faster defenders can eat you when you try it.  Mayfield may have the athleticism to go with his 40 time, to pull it off like RW and TT do.  I see he's very talented, but it's not at all given that a talented, short, spread offense guy with a temper will make it in the NFL, especially if he doesn't get some time to sit and learn.

 

Darnold is a bit short on college experience.  I couldn't find it in stats but an article said he's fumbled 21 times in 27 games and has small hands.  I dunno.  I see some of the same "not careful with the ball" decision-making that I see in White, leading to picks.  I think he's very talented but a bit more of the project than the pre-draft press makes it seem.

 

I like what I've seen of Rosen.  I like his footwork.  I like the way he moves in the pocket - he's got a bit of that "just a little duck" or "just a little step-up" that Rodgers, Brees, and Ryan have that can make guys miss.  I like his throws-beautiful.  I like the fact that he had some adversity, got injured, had to rehab and come back from it successfully.  I'm all "this guy's da Bomb, sell the farm, sell the house, buy him".  But I'm reading that he doesn't really love the game or have the mental attitude which makes him a big question. (I don't GAF if he acts like a frat boy and moves a hot tub in his room, as long as UCLA isn't hiding any sexual assaults or crap a la Sanchez.  Work hard, have fun, don't hurt anyone.)

 

Anyway from what I've seen, Rosen is the one QB closest to a sure bet and people keep talking about all the questions about him mentally and does he have passion for the game, how much he wants it so he would be rolling the dice, too? I think Mayfield and Rudolph and Darnold are very talented guys who may need a year or two, and there's a that spread dice roll.

 

I will put it on record though, that if the Browns draft Darnold or Mayfield #1, the Giants decide to roll with Barkley, and the Colts draft Rosen after the thing they pulled and replaced Manning with Luck, I'll be sick, I really will.

 

7 hours ago, billspro said:

I think he does a really good job moving the defence with his eyes to create openings for his WRs. I see him move around the pocket well, know where to go with the football against certain coverages, and throw with anticipation. He would be my choice for the next QB of the Bills if I had a say. 

 

I think a lot of that has to do with him having poor talent on the offensive line and the skill positions. He elevated the entire offence to become reasonable. He had one horrible throw for an int in that game, all QBs make bad throws every once in a while. I am willing to roll the dice on a kid if I see pocket presence, accuracy, progression ability, and an NFL arm. White has all of those things. The throws he made in the senior bowl were brilliant, it is rare to see such good anticipation while playing with players you hardly know. 

 

I have liked what I see of White.  I saw the "move the D" thing.  He does seem a bit slow to react.  He'll need to speed up his clock to make it in the NFL.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[BigBuff423]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Caveat that I don't watch actual college games so I depend upon film and knowledgeable scouting.

 

Rudolph is playing in a spread offense.  I see some nice throws into tight windows (on occasion - got to watch a while to find one).  As Buffalo716 has noted, a lot of those spread guys don't make it to the NFL.  It's far from a sure bet that he'll be able to read Ds and adjust to the NFL game. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but same is true of Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold.  Air raid offense.  Sometimes those guys adjust (Goff? Prescott?).  Sometimes they don't

 

The film I've seen, Mayfield seems to makes a fair number of high throws his WR go up and get rather than relying on accurate placement.  That doesn't always end well in the NFL where the DBs are just as athletic.  Same true of all this improvise and make it happen stuff.  Faster defenders can eat you when you try it.  Mayfield may have the athleticism to go with his 40 time, to pull it off like RW and TT do.  I see he's very talented, but it's not at all given that a talented, short, spread offense guy with a temper will make it in the NFL, especially if he doesn't get some time to sit and learn.

 

Darnold is a bit short on college experience.  I couldn't find it in stats but an article said he's fumbled 21 times in 27 games and has small hands.  I dunno.  I see some of the same "not careful with the ball" decision-making that I see in White, leading to picks.  I think he's very talented but a bit more of the project than the pre-draft press makes it seem.

 

I like what I've seen of Rosen.  I like his footwork.  I like the way he moves in the pocket - he's got a bit of that "just a little duck" or "just a little step-up" that Rodgers, Brees, and Ryan have that can make guys miss.  I like his throws-beautiful.  I like the fact that he had some adversity, got injured, had to rehab and come back from it successfully.  I'm all "this guy's da Bomb, sell the farm, sell the house, buy him".  But I'm reading that he doesn't really love the game or have the mental attitude which makes him a big question. (I don't GAF if he acts like a frat boy and moves a hot tub in his room, as long as UCLA isn't hiding any sexual assaults or crap a la Sanchez.  Work hard, have fun, don't hurt anyone.)

 

Anyway from what I've seen, Rosen is the one QB closest to a sure bet and people keep talking about all the questions about him mentally and does he have passion for the game, how much he wants it so he would be rolling the dice, too? I think Mayfield and Rudolph and Darnold are very talented guys who may need a year or two, and there's a that spread dice roll.

 

I will put it on record though, that if the Browns draft Darnold or Mayfield #1, the Giants decide to roll with Barkley, and the Colts draft Rosen after the thing they pulled and replaced Manning with Luck, I'll be sick, I really will.

 

 

I have liked what I see of White.  I saw the "move the D" thing.  He does seem a bit slow to react.  He'll need to speed up his clock to make it in the NFL.

 

First, on all the observations regarding the "top 4" QBs, I would concur almost to a "T"....except, I do think Rudolph can be good in the right Offense. He would need a Pittsburgh type of Offense. At first I thought a WCO, but the more I've seen of him and the more I've gone back to re-watch his "highlights", the more I think he would do much better in a vertical offense that stretches the field. On everything else, again IMHO (for whatever that's worth, which according to my wife, isn't much) I tend to agree.

 

As for the bolded portion, it could be he won't learn to adjust or adapt to the NFL speed at all, making him incapable of becoming a good or great NFL QB. However, as I mentioned earlier, he didn't even start playing the QB position until his Senior year in high school and then was thrust into the starting role at USF. He transferred to WKU and purposely wanted to red shirt a year so he could learn, and his Junior year showed the results. I think if he has a year - and just a year - to sit behind a Vet, can carry clipboard, sit through meetings, go through Pre-Season games but NO mop-up duty, I think he has real solid potential. With Daboll, I have far more confidence given his resume and recent work, to see the kid's strengths and weaknesses and utilize him appropriately. I do like this kid, and the more I see, the more I believe he'll be a "find" if he makes it past the 2nd round. 

[Coach Tuesday]

42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I see he's very talented, but it's not at all given that a talented, short, spread offense guy with a temper will make it in the NFL, especially if he doesn't get some time to sit and learn.

 

You just described Drew Brees to a tee... he ran a spread at Purdue, he's short, he's a hot head (crazy family issues), etc.  Not a coincidence that the Saints are reportedly interested in Mayfield...

Edited January 29, 2018 by Coach Tuesday

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

You just described Drew Brees to a tee... he ran a spread at Purdue, he's short, he's a hot head (crazy family issues), etc.  Not a coincidence that the Saints are reportedly interested in Mayfield...

 

Yeah, I can see where Mayfield is a high risk/high reward kind of guy, at best he could be Brees, at worst...well, all the other physically talented short spread offense QBs who haven't made it in the NFL.

 

I expect it really depends on what's between the guy's ears when you talk to him.  

[simpleman]

Of course I would love a Darnold, a Rosen, or maybe a Mayfield. But not at the cost of multiple high picks. If we can get a White, a Rudolf or other 2nd tier QB and let him sit a year behind a decent bridge QB like a Smith, that would be great. But not at 21 or 22. Trade down with one of the top picks and get whoever you like best when you pick then. Remember Tre was a late round trade down pick. The talent will be there if you pick right. Use the extra picks to fill holes with a BPA at need positions. You have a very good chance of getting a future non QB starter in the 2nd and 3rd rounds this year in certain categories of need. Give the new rookie the chance to duel it out with Peterman behind the decent bridge QB and see if either one  has enough to keep around next year. If neither has it, try again next year and draft another promising rookie. I don't want to see us wasting top picks on 2nd tier QBs, or making foolish trade ups that squander your picks. Please no repeats of  giving up a ransom to trade up for players and then letting them go for so little like for Watkins. It sets you back years if you gamble and choose wrong.

Edited January 29, 2018 by simpleman

[billspro]

1 hour ago, simpleman said:

Of course I would love a Darnold, a Rosen, or maybe a Mayfield. But not at the cost of multiple high picks. If we can get a White, a Rudolf or other 2nd tier QB and let him sit a year behind a decent bridge QB like a Smith, that would be great. But not at 21 or 22. Trade down with one of the top picks and get whoever you like best when you pick then. Remember Tre was a late round trade down pick. The talent will be there if you pick right. Use the extra picks to fill holes with a BPA at need positions. You have a very good chance of getting a future non QB starter in the 2nd and 3rd rounds this year in certain categories of need. Give the new rookie the chance to duel it out with Peterman behind the decent bridge QB and see if either one  has enough to keep around next year. If neither has it, try again next year and draft another promising rookie. I don't want to see us wasting top picks on 2nd tier QBs, or making foolish trade ups that squander your picks. Please no repeats of  giving up a ransom to trade up for players and then letting them go for so little like for Watkins. It sets you back years if you gamble and choose wrong.

 

I love this plan