Wyoming’s Josh Allen

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

7 hours ago, RichardLee said:

I haven't seen much on the Wall regarding Josh Allen, who - seemingly - could be drafted with a reasonable trade up.

 

While a bit raw for the NFL, he looks impressive with tremendous potential. His natural abilities are phenomenal and his downsides seem coachable to me.  He could be developed over a year or two, especially if we landed Alex Smith.

 

What do you college football guys think?

 

Imo Allen is the enigma of the draft, playing at a small school you'd like to see him dominate the competition. Some will say the talent around him left but I believe a great QB makes others around him better. I think he's coachable but is he going to be Gabbert or is he going to be Ben Roethlisberger? 

[jrober38]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

 

Imo Allen is the enigma of the draft, playing at a small school you'd like to see him dominate the competition. Some will say the talent around him left but I believe a great QB makes others around him better. I think he's coachable but is he going to be Gabbert or is he going to be Ben Roethlisberger? 

 

Allen's best comparison by far is EJ Manuel. Same pros and cons. Same size, same mobility, same horrible accuracy issues. 

 

You don't go from being a middle of the road Mountain West Conference QB to a franchise QB in the NFL. 

 

Successful NFL QBs are usually guys who dominated college football and elevated their program noticeably for the time they were there. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by jrober38

[starrymessenger]

3 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

As a fan of both Allen and Lamar, I really don't understand how someone that likes Allen can possibly dislike Lamar. I can understand people that like Lamar might not like Allen, but the inverse just doesn't make any sense.

 

Surprised you would say that. Most observers see Allen as someone who can be groomed to excell as a pocket passer with enuf mobility to operate effectively outside the pocket when necessary. To many of the same folks Jackson is just another ultra athletic running QB. Very different types.

My view is that Jackson is not just a running QB who should be. a WR at the next level ( oddly no one is saying Allen should try out as a tight end). IMO although he needs work Jackson's mechanical issue is not serious and that he projects as a very good pocket passer. Just an incredible talent.

[DCOrange]

4 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Surprised you would say that. Most observers see Allen as someone who can be groomed to excell as a pocket passer with enuf mobility to operate effectively outside the pocket when necessary. To many of the same folks Jackson is just another ultra athletic running QB. Very different types.

My view is that Jackson is not just a running QB who should be. a WR at the next level ( oddly no one is saying Allen should try out as a tight end). IMO although he needs work Jackson's mechanical issue is not serious and that he projects as a very good pocket passer. Just an incredible talent.

The way I see it, while Allen is a pretty amazing athlete in his own right, Lamar is on a completely different level athletically. Lamar is also a better passer right now than Allen is. Allen has possibly the strongest arm I've ever seen and Lamar does not, but Lamar's arm strength is probably #2 or 3 in this class in his own right while being more accurate than Allen currently is. Both have to clean up their footwork a significant amount, but Lamar is at least comparable as a passer to the other top QBs in this draft class; I don't really think Allen is right now. I also think Lamar is more comfortable in the pocket right now than Allen is.

Edited January 25, 2018 by DCOrange

[NickelCity]

If I'm the Bills I just can't take him in the top rounds because of his inaccuracy. 

[starrymessenger]

9 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

The way I see it, while Allen is a pretty amazing athlete in his own right, Lamar is on a completely different level athletically. Lamar is also a better passer right now than Allen is. Allen has possibly the strongest arm I've ever seen and Lamar does not, but Lamar's arm strength is probably #2 or 3 in this class in his own right while being more accurate than Allen currently is. Both have to clean up their footwork a significant amount, but Lamar is at least comparable as a passer to the other top QBs in this draft class; I don't really think Allen is right now.

 

Well I agree with that. in comparing Allen's and Jackson's mechanical issues the thing that gives me confidence that Jackson can iron it out is that he very often displays excellent mechanics, does exactly what you want to see him do. So clearly he is fully capable of doing it but sometimes just gets lazy. I'm not at all as confident that Allen's issues can be successfully addressed, partly because they are different and also because I feel they run deeper and are more serious.

The great A. Rodgers has a mechanical issue that affected his draft status and has occasionally damaged his performance as a pro - a 5 or 6 game stretch in 2016 for example. When that happens he works with his QB coach to correct things and his play improves. I see Jackson as having that kind of manageable problem. Not so sure about Allen.

Edited January 25, 2018 by starrymessenger

[Jay_Fixit]

6 hours ago, Billsfansinceday1 said:

It sounds like he is really struggling with his accuracy at the Senior Bowl.  I really don't want to bring in a long term project with our 1st round pick.  3rd round...absolutely.

Like he did on Saturdays. I’ve said this from last year that Allen is fools gold.

 

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Tell that to Jamarcus Russell, JP Losman, EJ Manuel, Blaine Gabbert, Jake Locker, Akili Smith, etc, etc, etc. 

 

How far you can throw a football or how fast you can run have no correlation to being a successful NFL QB.

 

Accuracy is, and always will be the most important trait, and he simply doesn't have it. 

100%.

 

How far someone can throw it means nothing. If he can’t hit the deep out, he’s not gonna make it.

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

Tell that to Jamarcus Russell, JP Losman, EJ Manuel, Blaine Gabbert, Jake Locker, Akili Smith, etc, etc, etc. 

 

How far you can throw a football or how fast you can run have no correlation to being a successful NFL QB.

 

Accuracy is, and always will be the most important trait, and he simply doesn't have it. 

Marino and Farve are also the outliers.  Neither passed for over 60% in college.  

[ndirish1978]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

 

If you put Mayfield's skillset in Josh Allen's body you have the consensus # 1 pick overall and it's not even close. 

 

If you put Josh Allen's skill set in Kyle Williams' body you get Jared Lorenzen. I like this game. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by ndirish1978

[SaviorPeterman]

Josh Allen is the biggest boom/bust QB in the draft and either going to be the next Big Ben or Losman/Manuel.

 

Either way he no doubt be overdrafted (possibly as high as the top 10) even though most insiders have him graded more as a 2nd/3rd rounder prospect. Hopefully the Bills stay far away though given their track record with similar players mentioned.

Edited January 25, 2018 by SaviorPeterman

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Exactly.

 

Every year scouts get all fired up about the guys who can throw the ball a mile as if that is any sort of indicator of success at the NFL level.

 

Reality is that all of the top QBs in the NFL are guys with top notch accuracy. Arm strength is just a bonus. 

  

 

Newton doesn't have top-notch accuracy. And he was the MVP one year. So that's not reality, it's a slanted view. Roethlisberger's pretty accurate but not really highly accurate. That's not what his game is built around. He's accurate enough.

 

You can't be inaccurate, but there's really only one Drew Brees. Allen isn't inaccurate. He's also not highly accurate. Is he accurate enough? Can he improve? Nobody knows for sure. Certainly not me. But equally, certainly not you.

 

I agree with you this far, I'd much rather have a guy with elite decision-making and accuracy than elite arm strength. If we can get one, I'm all for it, but those guys don't grow on trees.

[starrymessenger]

7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

  

 

Newton doesn't have top-notch accuracy. And he was the MVP one year. So that's not reality, it's a slanted view. Roethlisberger's pretty accurate but not really highly accurate. That's not what his game is built around. He's accurate enough.

 

You can't be inaccurate, but there's really only one Drew Brees. Allen isn't inaccurate. He's also not highly accurate. Is he accurate enough? Can he improve? Nobody knows for sure. Certainly not me. But equally, certainly not you.

 

I agree with you this far, I'd much rather have a guy with elite decision-making and accuracy than elite arm strength. If we can get one, I'm all for it, but those guys don't grow on trees.

 

Could there be one (or 2) growing on a tree in Minni - Case, Teddy?

[jrober38]

1 hour ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Like he did on Saturdays. I’ve said this from last year that Allen is fools gold.

 

 

 

 

100%.

 

How far someone can throw it means nothing. If he can’t hit the deep out, he’s not gonna make it.

 

This guy struggles with screen passes. 

29 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

  

 

Newton doesn't have top-notch accuracy. And he was the MVP one year. So that's not reality, it's a slanted view. Roethlisberger's pretty accurate but not really highly accurate. That's not what his game is built around. He's accurate enough.

 

You can't be inaccurate, but there's really only one Drew Brees. Allen isn't inaccurate. He's also not highly accurate. Is he accurate enough? Can he improve? Nobody knows for sure. Certainly not me. But equally, certainly not you.

 

I agree with you this far, I'd much rather have a guy with elite decision-making and accuracy than elite arm strength. If we can get one, I'm all for it, but those guys don't grow on trees.

 

Sorry but Josh Allen IS inaccurate.

When he has a clean pocket to throw from, the ball routinely doesn't find it's target.

[BuffaloHokie13]

23 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 Newton doesn't have top-notch accuracy. And he was the MVP one year. So that's not reality, it's a slanted view. Roethlisberger's pretty accurate but not really highly accurate. That's not what his game is built around. He's accurate enough.

 

You can't be inaccurate, but there's really only one Drew Brees. Allen isn't inaccurate. He's also not highly accurate. Is he accurate enough? Can he improve? Nobody knows for sure. Certainly not me. But equally, certainly not you.

 

I agree with you this far, I'd much rather have a guy with elite decision-making and accuracy than elite arm strength. If we can get one, I'm all for it, but those guys don't grow on trees.

Cam likely doesn't even sniff the MVP in 2015 if you go by his passing alone. He won the MVP that year, in large part, because he ran the ball 132 times for 636 yards and 10 TDs in addition to passing adequately with a high number of TDs. He completed less than 60% of his passes, and passed for fewer yards in 16 games than Big Ben passed for in 11.5 games.

 

The comparison between Allen and Newton begins and ends at the fact that neither is a very accurate passer.

[greeneblitz]

Our tearing down of every first round QB in the draft begins, we do it every year and say "wait till next year so and so comes out", that ***** gotta end, we should be drafting the best possible QB we can afford plus another mid round option, forget any free agent cast off we always seem to waste fans time on.

[jrober38]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Cam likely doesn't even sniff the MVP in 2015 if you go by his passing alone. He won the MVP that year, in large part, because he ran the ball 132 times for 636 yards and 10 TDs in addition to passing adequately with a high number of TDs. He completed less than 60% of his passes, and passed for fewer yards in 16 games than Big Ben passed for in 11.5 games.

 

The comparison between Allen and Newton begins and ends at the fact that neither is a very accurate passer.

 

Cam Newton dominated college football in his lone year at Auburn. He carried a mediocre team with hardly any NFL talent to a National Title.

 

Josh Allen was a middle of the pack Mountain West QB. He was nothing more than an average college QB who did little to elevate the play of those around him.

 

Comparing these two is insane. Cam Newton is a dominant football player. Josh Allen has thus far just been a guy with a big arm who isn't very good. 

[Buffalo716]

 

[jrober38]

Just now, greeneblitz said:

Our tearing down of every first round QB in the draft begins, we do it every year and say "wait till next year so and so comes out", that ***** gotta end, we should be drafting the best possible QB we can afford plus another mid round option, forget any free agent cast off we always seem to waste fans time on.

 

The odds of successfully becoming a quality NFL QB suggest 9 out of 10 QB prospects deserve to be town down. 

 

If you take away the guys who go #1 overall, 70% of first round QBs bust.

[BuffaloHokie13]

2 minutes ago, greeneblitz said:

Our tearing down of every first round QB in the draft begins, we do it every year and say "wait till next year so and so comes out", that ***** gotta end, we should be drafting the best possible QB we can afford plus another mid round option, forget any free agent cast off we always seem to waste fans time on.

I don't see this happening at all. I certainly don't speak for everyone, but if we come away with Rosen, Darnold, Rudolph, or Mayfield in the first I'm happy. Allen, in my opinion, isn't a first round prospect. If we use a first round pick on a non-first round prospect I will be upset - much like I was when we did just that with Manuel. Though that was mitigated slightly by the fact that we traded back before doing it.

[DCOrange]

15 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Cam likely doesn't even sniff the MVP in 2015 if you go by his passing alone. He won the MVP that year, in large part, because he ran the ball 132 times for 636 yards and 10 TDs in addition to passing adequately with a high number of TDs. He completed less than 60% of his passes, and passed for fewer yards in 16 games than Big Ben passed for in 11.5 games.

 

The comparison between Allen and Newton begins and ends at the fact that neither is a very accurate passer.

 

Carolina had the #1 scoring offense that year and their passing game was top 10 as well, along with the rushing numbers you mentioned. Even taking away the rushing, Cam was one of the best QBs in the NFL that year. And while Allen isn't as good a runner as Cam is, rushing will absolutely be a part of what he brings to his team.

10 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Cam Newton dominated college football in his lone year at Auburn. He carried a mediocre team with hardly any NFL talent to a National Title.

 

Josh Allen was a middle of the pack Mountain West QB. He was nothing more than an average college QB who did little to elevate the play of those around him.

 

Comparing these two is insane. Cam Newton is a dominant football player. Josh Allen has thus far just been a guy with a big arm who isn't very good. 

Allen helped take one of, if not the worst team in the conference to one of the best two years in a row and they literally couldn't score, much less beat anyone when he missed time.

 

Edit: One of the games Allen missed this year was against the 127th best defense out of 130, giving up 42 points per game. Wyoming completed under 50% of their passes and scored 17 points. They scored 25.5 points per game with Allen this year versus 12 points per game without him.

Edited January 25, 2018 by DCOrange