Incognito update

[Rob's House]

Based on the reaction it seems unlikely that he said anything all that offensive. If he called him an inward, coon, etc. I doubt the guy would have been so quick to forgive.

 

More likely it was something not overtly racist that could be interpreted as such. If that's the case this really is much ado about nothing.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Rob's House said:

 

My guess is he said something that was mildly offensive but probably doesn't rise to the level of anything people would think of as a racial slur, except for the ultra-vaginal SJW types that think Redskins is a slur.

 

Football linemen say offensive crap.  Really offensive crap.  That's the point of it: they're trying to get under the guy's skin, make him snap and draw a foul or just so angry he loses his focus and whiffs on a play.  There's no reason to expect it was something only an "ultra-vaginal SJW type" (whatever that means) would consider offensive.  

 

When I was a kid, I invited a new friend to my house to eat watermelon.  New friend was insulted and hurt.  What?  Watermelon is delicious!  New friend was black.  Grew up knowing blacks were demeaned as watermelon-gobbling simpletons in turn-of-the-century minstrel shows, songs, postcards.  I had no idea.  Never heard such a thing.  That doesn't mean new friend was super-sensitive.  Watermelon had different connotations to each of us 'cuz, different backgrounds.  We sorted it.  The watermelon was good.

 

I'm guessing Incognito said something about Cameroon that was intended to get under Ngakoue's skin and rile him but not as racist.  It was taken as racist by Ngakoue because of his cultural background and what he's heard all his life - possibly something that Richie wouldn't realize had racial overtones, unless he had black friends from Africa.  Not because Ngakoue is some "vaginal SJW" (really?   I mean, that's so common for NFL linemen.  I hear they like strawberry douche) or that it was only "mildly offensive". 

 

Because, really, in a football game, if you're going to trash talk, why on earth would you go for "mildly offensive"?  Go big, or go home.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Doc]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

And if both decide to let water go under the bridge you’ll stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and yell you didn’t hear anything?

 

come on doc- forget this beyond a shadow of a doubt standard you are applying here.... based on the accusation, and apology, you have to acknowledge there’s a pretty good chance he said something racially inappropriate. I promise they won’t jail him if you acknowledge it’s not looking great...

 

Sorry, I won't abandon a standard that requires at least some shred of evidence and doesn't rely on just one person's word against many.  Never mind that it occurred in a noisy environment.

 

And Ngakoue can reveal what he thinks RI said.  Why do you think he hasn't?    

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

Sorry, I won't abandon a standard that requires at least some shred of evidence and doesn't rely on just one person's word against many.  Never mind that it occurred in a noisy environment.

 

And Ngakoue can reveal what he thinks RI said.  Why do you think he hasn't?    

 

I admire your standard.

 

Ngakoue by now wishes he'd kept his tweet shut and no way wants to reveal what was said.  Why draw a "road map" for next year's OLmen "how to get into his head"?  It's like sending out xrays of where the pins in your leg are located, as guidance for where the opponent should kick you.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Rob's House]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Football linemen say offensive crap.  Really offensive crap.  That's the point of it: they're trying to get under the guy's skin, make him snap and draw a foul or just so angry he loses his focus and whiffs on a play.  There's no reason to expect it was something only an "ultra-vaginal SJW type" (whatever that means) would consider offensive.  

 

When I was a kid, I invited a new friend to my house to eat watermelon.  New friend was insulted and hurt.  What?  Watermelon is delicious!  New friend was black.  Grew up knowing blacks were demeaned as watermelon-gobbling simpletons in turn-of-the-century minstrel shows, songs, postcards.  I had no idea.  Never heard such a thing.  That doesn't mean new friend was super-sensitive.  Watermelon had different connotations to each of us 'cuz, different backgrounds.  We sorted it.  The watermelon was good.

 

I'm guessing Incognito said something about Cameroon that was intended to get under Ngakoue's skin and rile him but not as racist.  It was taken as racist by Ngakoue because of his cultural background and what he's heard all his life - possibly something that Richie wouldn't realize had racial overtones, unless he had black friends from Africa.  Not because Ngakoue is some "vaginal SJW" (really?   I mean, that's so common for NFL linemen.  I hear they like strawberry douche) or that it was only "mildly offensive". 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree, in fact I think what you described is the most likely scenario. By mildly offensive I meant in a racial sense. The touchy SJWs comment was in reference to the types who, for example, can't distinguish a comment about Africa/Cameroon from one about being black.

[Green Lightning]

5 hours ago, Boyst62 said:

I don't give a **** what he said. And I don't care what are he didn't say. My frustration and all of this is why people are so quick to jump sides without evidence and just a baseless accusation

That's the new normal in America now. No discussion, just exchange gunfire immediately.

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I admire your standard.

 

Ngakoue by now wishes he'd kept his tweet shut and no way wants to reveal what was said.  Why draw a "road map" for next year's OLmen "how to get into his head"?  It's like sending out xrays of where the pins in your leg are located, as guidance for where the opponent should kick you.

Fair point.

[NoSaint]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Sorry, I won't abandon a standard that requires at least some shred of evidence and doesn't rely on just one person's word against many.  Never mind that it occurred in a noisy environment.

 

And Ngakoue can reveal what he thinks RI said.  Why do you think he hasn't?    

 

 

You are clearly right-

 

based on:

 

Dude 1: “that dude made a racist comment”

 

Dudes that might not have been around: ”oh I didn’t hear it I don’t know... maybe a misunderstanding? I dunno!”

 

Dude accused: ”I’m sorry - sometimes you get caught in the craziness of the moment and say things you’d never say off the field”

 

we should probably conclude “in absence of confirmation of the exact insult the most reasonable expectation is he probably insulted the guys mom or wife because a guy said he didn’t hear what happened and no ones repeated any racial quote to us”

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

I don't disagree, in fact I think what you described is the most likely scenario. By mildly offensive I meant in a racial sense. The touchy SJWs comment was in reference to the types who, for example, can't distinguish a comment about Africa/Cameroon from one about being black.

 

Understand, meant mild in a racial sense.  My point from the watermelon story, was that what's racist or not depends on (hate this phrase, but can't replace its meaning) cultural background.  I'm guessing what a black man from Africa or African parents would consider a racial slur might differ from what Incognito considers.  But that's just my thought.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

we should probably conclude “in absence of confirmation of the exact insult the most reasonable expectation is he probably insulted the guys mom or wife because a guy said he didn’t hear what happened and no ones repeated any racial quote to us”

 

You lost me at that last.  Since Ngakoue made a point to say "proud of my African heritage" in his original tweet, the most reasonable expectation would be Cog probably said something about Cameroon or his dad.

 

Why it's apparently OK to talk about riding train on your gbizzer sister but not about anything racial is a mystery to me, but since I don't play on an NFL line, I don't need to sort it.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Doc]

17 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

You are clearly right-

 

based on:

 

Dude 1: “that dude made a racist comment”

 

Dudes that might not have been around: ”oh I didn’t hear it I don’t know... maybe a misunderstanding? I dunno!”

 

Dude accused: ”I’m sorry - sometimes you get caught in the craziness of the moment and say things you’d never say off the field”

 

we should probably conclude “in absence of confirmation of the exact insult the most reasonable expectation is he probably insulted the guys mom or wife because a guy said he didn’t hear what happened and no ones repeated any racial quote to us”

 

No, you are clearly right.  We should suspend and/or fine and/or cut a guy because someone thinks he heard something, in a noisy stadium, which he won't even divulge, and the accusee made an ambiguous statement.

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

No, you are clearly right.  We should suspend and/or fine and/or cut a guy because someone thinks he heard something, in a noisy stadium, which he won't even divulge, and the accusee made an ambiguous statement.

 

Yup- clearly have my pitchfork lit in this rage fueled commentary about my opinions of Ritchie. Should probably jail the guy just to be safe. 

 

so far the total sum of my punishments proposed are that if it rose to the standard of being proven he straight up used the n word or similar blatant offense that I wouldn’t fault the team at all for cutting him - and I likely would cut him if I were gm. I think it has no place in the game and on a purely practical level it’s terrible for team morale. That’s not where we are currently though.

 

and that as spectators I think it’s fair for us to say “not sure what went down but if he did (and with the apology it sure sounds like he did) say something racially charged we should probably uniformly agree that it’s not cool”

 

You sure got me this time, doc! Nailed me and my desire to really railroad him by subjecting him to my super harsh statement of not liking racism. Gave me an inch and I’m really taking a mile here.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

8 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

Yup- clearly have my pitchfork lit in this rage fueled commentary about my opinions of Ritchie. Should probably jail the guy just to be safe. 

 

so far the total sum of my punishments proposed are that if it rose to the standard of being proven he straight up used the n word or similar blatant offense that I wouldn’t fault the team at all for cutting him - and I likely would cut him if I were gm. I think it has no place in the game and on a purely practical level it’s terrible for team morale. That’s not where we are currently though.

 

and that as spectators I think it’s fair for us to say “not sure what went down but if he did (and with the apology it sure sounds like he did) say something racially charged we should probably uniformly agree that it’s not cool”

 

You sure got me this time, doc! Nailed me and my desire to really railroad him by subjecting him to my super harsh statement of not liking racism. Gave me an inch and I’m really taking a mile here.

 

sure, you can have that standard and if you were GM, you would be empowered to apply the standard of your choosing.  As a spectator, it's absolutely fair to apply the "if, then not cool" standard.  At the same time, i sleep pretty soundly recognizing that the facts available are limited, and ultimately I have no idea what actually was said or done. I'm not even sure that YN does, either. 

 

And personally, I can see a difference between actions & words said and done in an adrenaline and often drug-fueled professional football game and real life. I'd think the "not cool" standard could apply to many, many things that happen during a game. Again, applying the standard "the two involved parties worked it out" seems like a good result to me. 

[NoSaint]

20 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

sure, you can have that standard and if you were GM, you would be empowered to apply the standard of your choosing.  As a spectator, it's absolutely fair to apply the "if, then not cool" standard.  At the same time, i sleep pretty soundly recognizing that the facts available are limited, and ultimately I have no idea what actually was said or done. I'm not even sure that YN does, either. 

 

And personally, I can see a difference between actions & words said and done in an adrenaline and often drug-fueled professional football game and real life. I'd think the "not cool" standard could apply to many, many things that happen during a game. Again, applying the standard "the two involved parties worked it out" seems like a good result to me. 

 

 

Im fine with most if not all of that - truly. I won’t claim to know what was said. I won’t claim to know what was heard. And I think that society is too eager to prove who hates (insert many uncool things here) the most, and ruin lives over something that doesn’t warrant having lives ruined...

 

im mostly trying to have an intellectually honest conversation between fans - not deliberate on a jury. Richie was accused of saying something racist. Ritchie has not denied that and has openly apologized for saying something he would seemingly be embarrassed to have attached to him. I think that implies that it went beyond only the craziest extremists would be offended and into it being something that would be generally frowned upon.  I applaud his efforts to reach out in private, and to own it in public. I’m curious if YN agrees with his characterization of the interactions. 

 

I think it’s a pretty solid chance that the dude that used to say really inappropriate stuff on the regular could be genuinely trying to do better but in the heat of the moment something dumb came out without true intent. I think it should be easy to get by from there with genuine apology and some uncomfortable talks if it’s outside of who you have been the last few years. Sounds like we might be at that point already.

 

I find it silly how far a few are twisting to say they won’t even consider the possibility that he said something racist. I don’t particularly like how many are implying “pssssh it’s football go call that guy a n****** and get him to take a penalty.” Id be disappointed if my team had that reputation, and am happy Ritchie seems to be stepping up. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

 

Im fine with most if not all of that - truly. I won’t claim to know what was said. I won’t claim to know what was heard. And I think that society is too eager to prove who hates (insert many uncool things here) the most, and ruin lives over something that doesn’t warrant having lives ruined...

 

im mostly trying to have an intellectually honest conversation between fans - not deliberate on a jury. Richie was accused of saying something racist. Ritchie has not denied that and has openly apologized for saying something he would seemingly be embarrassed to have attached to him. I think that implies that it went beyond only the craziest extremists would be offended and into it being something that would be generally frowned upon.  I applaud his efforts to reach out in private, and to own it in public. I’m curious if YN agrees with his characterization of the interactions. 

 

I think it’s a pretty solid chance that the dude that used to say really inappropriate stuff on the regular could be genuinely trying to do better but in the heat of the moment something dumb came out without true intent. I think it should be easy to get by from there with genuine apology and some uncomfortable talks if it’s outside of who you have been the last few years. Sounds like we might be at that point already.

 

I find it silly how far a few are twisting to say they won’t even consider the possibility that he said something racist. I don’t particularly like how many are implying “pssssh it’s football go call that guy a n****** and get him to take a penalty.” Id be disappointed if my team had that reputation, and am happy Ritchie seems to be stepping up. 

I think if you're looking for deeper meaning on society and race in a place where people identify themselves as SlapDickSammy, FdaPatz, and Hugh G. Rection, you may be disappointed in what you find. 

 

I'm going to tell you I treat people across the board with respect, and in any given year will encounter virtually every color/creed/gender/sexual orientation there is. I hope you'll take me at my word on that.  I can't recall anyone identifying as binary but I'm sure that will happen. I have found that everyone has implicit bias in some way, shape or form, and it's simply part of the human condition. Some are more open than others, some guarded, and some let their hair down more when the door is closed than they do when it's open. I'd bet you find that here.

 

I've learned over the years that things I absolutely knew as fact turned out not to be factual at all, that sometimes the hero is actually not heroic at all and the victim is the perpetrator. I think that while debate on what constitutes racism is as important today as it ever was, that context and a complete understanding of all facts are important to me before I make my own decision in how I feel about something.  I'd think a person who has certain views on race that I might disagree with might well have a different set of experiences than I do, and that doesn't make them wrong, only wrong from my perspective.  You never know if the person who says "I don't trust ______" had a brother/sister/mother who was the victim of a crime perpetrated by a person who was ________.  I've had my own life experiences on that sort of thing that resulted in me opening my mind as opposed to closing it. 

 

Anyway, getting back to this. I don't spend a ton of time worrying about incomplete fact patterns and why people do what they do. What we know---you, me, Hapless, Doc, and Mr Weo--- is all the same. I guess my faith in the professional way RI chose to handle this makes me think it's a bit more complicated than "Racism!" V "Not Racism!".   And really, at the end of the day its a reflection on them, not me as a fan of a football team. 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

 

 

Im fine with most if not all of that - truly. I won’t claim to know what was said. I won’t claim to know what was heard. And I think that society is too eager to prove who hates (insert many uncool things here) the most, and ruin lives over something that doesn’t warrant having lives ruined...

 

im mostly trying to have an intellectually honest conversation between fans - not deliberate on a jury. Richie was accused of saying something racist. Ritchie has not denied that and has openly apologized for saying something he would seemingly be embarrassed to have attached to him. I think that implies that it went beyond only the craziest extremists would be offended and into it being something that would be generally frowned upon.  I applaud his efforts to reach out in private, and to own it in public. I’m curious if YN agrees with his characterization of the interactions. 

 

I think it’s a pretty solid chance that the dude that used to say really inappropriate stuff on the regular could be genuinely trying to do better but in the heat of the moment something dumb came out without true intent. I think it should be easy to get by from there with genuine apology and some uncomfortable talks if it’s outside of who you have been the last few years. Sounds like we might be at that point already.

 

I find it silly how far a few are twisting to say they won’t even consider the possibility that he said something racist. I don’t particularly like how many are implying “pssssh it’s football go call that guy a n****** and get him to take a penalty.” Id be disappointed if my team had that reputation, and am happy Ritchie seems to be stepping up. 

 

Certainly I think it can fairly be implied that Ritchie said something he recognizes, with a cool head, Yannick could legitimately consider racist, and that merit amends.

 

I'm not sure if I'm one of those saying "pssssh it's football go call that guy a n****** and get him to take a penalty"?   What I'm saying is that I'm sure crappy and truly offensive things of all sorts designed to get under someone's skin, get said during a football game.  What's considered in-bounds or out-of-bounds seems arbitrary to me.

 

[Doc]

10 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Yup- clearly have my pitchfork lit in this rage fueled commentary about my opinions of Ritchie. Should probably jail the guy just to be safe. 

 

so far the total sum of my punishments proposed are that if it rose to the standard of being proven he straight up used the n word or similar blatant offense that I wouldn’t fault the team at all for cutting him - and I likely would cut him if I were gm. I think it has no place in the game and on a purely practical level it’s terrible for team morale. That’s not where we are currently though.

 

and that as spectators I think it’s fair for us to say “not sure what went down but if he did (and with the apology it sure sounds like he did) say something racially charged we should probably uniformly agree that it’s not cool”

 

You sure got me this time, doc! Nailed me and my desire to really railroad him by subjecting him to my super harsh statement of not liking racism. Gave me an inch and I’m really taking a mile here.

 

I guess you missed the "and/or cut" part above. 

 

And yes I agree that if RI used the N word or something similar, he should be cut, fined, and maybe even suspended.  But if he had, I doubt YN would have characterized what he said as "weak racist," right?  What if he merely said "go back to Cameroon you F#$!@!"?  Would you then start claiming that that's enough to get him cut? 

 

Oh and please stop with the silly "if he'd only publicly admitted he didn't say anything" trope.  It literally means nothing.

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, Doc said:

 

No, you are clearly right.  We should suspend and/or fine and/or cut a guy because someone thinks he heard something, in a noisy stadium, which he won't even divulge, and the accusee made an ambiguous statement.

 

Why is it important that YOU know what was said?

 

As we have already discussed, YOU not being privy to the fact has no bearing whatsoever here.  RI apologized for saying something "crazy".  Despite what Beane gamely (but lamely) offered, it's very unlikely that Yannick "misunderstood" what RI said to him. 

 

I asked you how you would have handled this, gave you the two options.  I have no doubt that, if you were innocent, you would have immediately denied it, would not have made such a public display of your subsequent bro hug of your accuser (likely you wouldn't have approached them at all) and you would have just left it to your company to conclude for everyone's benefit that the accusatiosn were false.

 

This is exactly what you would do.  RI didn't do any of that.

[NoSaint]

16 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Why is it important that YOU know what was said?

 

As we have already discussed, YOU not being privy to the fact has no bearing whatsoever here.  RI apologized for saying something "crazy".  Despite what Beane gamely (but lamely) offered, it's very unlikely that Yannick "misunderstood" what RI said to him. 

 

I asked you how you would have handled this, gave you the two options.  I have no doubt that, if you were innocent, you would have immediately denied it, would not have made such a public display of your subsequent bro hug of your accuser (likely you wouldn't have approached them at all) and you would have just left it to your company to conclude for everyone's benefit that the accusatiosn were false.

 

This is exactly what you would do.  RI didn't do any of that.

 

 

Its starting to feel like they could release tape and docs reaction would be “yea, but why did they take so long to let me hear it? Probably busy tampering with it! Cause no one else said they heard it. Guess we will never know what Ritchie said!”

 

its really something how he’s dug in on it definitely not being something racist

Edited January 27, 2018 by NoSaint

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, NoSaint said:

 

 

Its starting to feel like they could release tape and docs reaction would be “yea, but why did they take so long to let me hear it? Probably busy tampering with it! Cause no one else said they heard it. Guess we will never know what Ritchie said!”

 

Indeed.  If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it....

 

Maybe Jonathan Martin also "misunderstood" RI when called him all those names and said all those things about what he wanted to do with to his mother and sister, and how certain scopes and guns are best for shooting black people.

 

I mean, "it gets crazy out there", right?

 

Be prepared for doc's response claiming our opposition to his shaky position on this as evidence of homoerotic collusion between us!

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Why is it important that YOU know what was said?

 

As we have already discussed, YOU not being privy to the fact has no bearing whatsoever here.  RI apologized for saying something "crazy".  Despite what Beane gamely (but lamely) offered, it's very unlikely that Yannick "misunderstood" what RI said to him. 

 

I asked you how you would have handled this, gave you the two options.  I have no doubt that, if you were innocent, you would have immediately denied it, would not have made such a public display of your subsequent bro hug of your accuser (likely you wouldn't have approached them at all) and you would have just left it to your company to conclude for everyone's benefit that the accusatiosn were false.

 

This is exactly what you would do.  RI didn't do any of that.

 

It's important for everyone to know what was said WEO, not just me.  If you were intellectually honest, at the very least you would want to know what was allegedly said as well.  Then you would want some evidence.  But it's obvious you're not so there's no point in hearing your wacky interpretations of things and what they prove. 

 

And you really are naive if you think that publicly declaring your innocence means anything.  But have at it.  I know it's all you've got. 

 

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

Its starting to feel like they could release tape and docs reaction would be “yea, but why did they take so long to let me hear it? Probably busy tampering with it! Cause no one else said they heard it. Guess we will never know what Ritchie said!”

 

its really something how he’s dug in on it definitely not being something racist

 

Hey, at least a tape would be something!  Let me know when one is released, much less incriminates RI.  Then we can talk about how I'd be claiming that the NFL is conspiring against RI.

 

Oh and as my final word, it appears YN accepted RI's "apology" and that the NFL isn't going to do anything.  Perhaps it's time both of you move on?