BringBackOrton Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Wilson has done pretty good and Watson was off to a great start (someone I was critical of coming out of college too). All fair points, but is anyone that enamored with Mason or Falk? Odds are, Beane won't pay the price to get Allen or Baker (Neither Darnold or Rosen are going to be obtainable in my opinion). I think 4 QB's are likely going in first 13 picks, and all 4 could go top 10 as there will be a lot of action I think for anyone willing to trade down with so many QB needy teams this year. So for me, I think we are likely looking at choices of Mason, Falk, or Jackson. And I like to gamble on upside, and I do think he is under rated as a passer. And if we can get a guy like TT that is better where TT is weak as a passer, that would be a pretty hard offense to defend. I won't be mad if we grab someone else, I just have started really coming around to Jackson as the guy with the most upside. Sign Teddy or keep TT to give Lamar the time he needs to develop and see what this kid can do. He likely cant be any worse than TT right, and that got us to the playoffs. Wilson and to a lesser extent Watson were playing a completely different game compared to Jackson at the college level. If Jackson is our QB4 on our board, I'd rather go up and get 1, 2 or 3 than settle for 4. We can afford it. Edited January 20, 2018 by jmc12290
starrymessenger Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, JohnC said: I like Lamar Jackson a lot, as I do Mayfield. This organization needs to identify their top qb prospects and then make an aggressive move to be in a position to get one of them. I certainly have my preferences but I'm still very open minded about the best qb prospect for us. What I don't want to see happen is for us to be passive and then be surprised when another team leaps ahead of us to acquire the player we had our sights on. If the Bills are going to make a mistake in this draft I would rather it come from being aggressive rather than be defensive. I like Mayfield too but honestly I think that again Jackson has shown more to suggest a successful transition to the NFL. He is also unequivocally the only real dual threat prospect at the position in this draft. There is nobody else that can do what he can do. Mayfield plays in a QB friendly spread college offence behind a good line and with excellent receivers and a very good ground game. How well will he do taking snaps under centre, how good is his footwork dropping back, how well will he see the field when he is not standing 5-7 yards behind the line, especially if he is in reality 5'11" etc...And there is a far more important question. I have noticed where some observers feel he does not go through his progressions properly but sticks doggedly to his pre snap read even when better options present themselves as the play develops, holds onto the ball too long as he waits for his first read to come free. That's not going to work at the next level. Jackson played in a pro style offence. He absolutely goes through his progressions, sees the field and generally makes good decisions. He also made do with a decidedly lackluster supporting cast, unlike Mayfield. Jackson is 6'3" and if he fills out his frame with another 15lbs he will be pushing 230. They are both good prospects but for my money Jackson has a lot more to offer. Edited January 20, 2018 by starrymessenger
JohnC Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, starrymessenger said: I like Mayfield too but honestly I think that again Jackson has shown more to suggest a successful transition to the NFL. He is also unequivocally the only real dual threat prospect at the position in this draft. There is nobody else that can do what he can do. Mayfield plays in a QB friendly spread college offence behind a good line and with excellent receivers and a very good ground game. How well will he do taking snaps under centre, how good is his footwork dropping back, how well will he see the field when he is not standing 5-7 yards behind the line, especially if he is in reality 5'11" etc...And there is a far more important question. I have noticed where some observers feel he does not go through his progressions properly but sticks doggedly to his pre snap read even when better options present themselves as the play develops, holds onto the ball too long as he waits for his first read to come free. That's not going to work at the next level. Jackson played in a pro style offence. He absolutely goes through his progressions, sees the field and generally makes good decisions. He also made do with a decidedly lackluster supporting cast, unlike Mayfield. Jackson is 6'3" and if he fills out his frame with another 15lbs he will be pushing 230. They are both good prospects but for my money Jackson has a lot more to offer. I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your assessment of Mayfield. With respect to the highlighted area I have no interest in Jackson as a dual threat qb in the pros. That's the last thing I want for my qb. My advocacy for Jackson is that I believe in time he will be a good pro qb who can run a full range offense with the benefit of being a judicious runner when need be. If I had the choice between Mayfield and Jackson I would without hesitation take Mayfield. One of Mayfield's best attributes is his stunning accuracy. That attribute easily translates to the pro game.
OldTimer1960 Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said: And 3rd in 2016 in most TD's scored behind only Atlanta and Saints in the 15 games TT started. Not much thanks to Taylor, though. Brady threw 65% more TDS in 3 fewer games.
xRUSHx Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) The guy is a tooth pick and runs more then he throws, he is going to get squashed in the NFL. He needs a bunch of work just like Allen. Running QBs are dangerous to use as it is In the NFL considering the risk of injury increases with every run but as skinny as he is IMO he is Tyrod at best but more like a Webb in the long run. IMO no thank you, I want a big pocket passer that stays protected by big linemen. Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Rudolph Edited January 21, 2018 by xRUSHx 1
Captain Murica Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) To the people saying Lamar is the same as TT are wrong, and pretty ignorant. Just because both are African American, and mobile QBs doesn’t mean they’re comparable at all. Just by comparing their passing stats it’s not even close in how TT wasn’t in the same league as LJ as a passer. I’ve thought that in the past and recognize it was wrong. I’d be happy with Lamar Jackson. TT college passing stats (4 years) Passing Year▲ School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate Career Virginia Tech 495 865 57.2 7017 8.1 8.1 44 20 137 *2007 Virginia Tech ACC FR QB 11 72 134 53.7 927 6.9 6.7 5 3 119.7 *2008 Virginia Tech ACC SO QB 12 99 173 57.2 1036 6.0 4.4 2 7 103.3 *2009 Virginia Tech ACC JR QB 13 136 243 56.0 2311 9.5 9.7 13 5 149.4 *2010 Virginia Tech ACC SR QB 14 188 315 59.7 2743 8.7 9.5 24 5 154.8 Lamar Jackson’s college passing stats (3 years) Passing Year School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate Career Louisville 619 1086 57.0 9043 8.3 8.5 69 27 142.9 *2015 Louisville ACC FR QB 12 135 247 54.7 1840 7.4 7.0 12 8 126.8 *2016 Louisville ACC SO QB 13 230 409 56.2 3543 8.7 9.1 30 9 148.8 2017 Louisville ACC JR QB 13 254 430 59.1 3660 8.5 8.7 27 10 146.6 Edited January 21, 2018 by Captain Murica 2
BringBackOrton Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Captain Murica said: To the people saying Lamar is the same as TT are wrong, and pretty ignorant. Just because both are African American, and mobile QBs doesn’t mean they’re comparable at all. Just by comparing their passing stats it’s not even close in how TT wasn’t in the same league as LJ as a passer. I’ve thought that in the past and recognize it was wrong. I’d be happy with Lamar Jackson. TT college passing stats (4 years) Passing Year▲ School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate Career Virginia Tech 495 865 57.2 7017 8.1 8.1 44 20 137 *2007 Virginia Tech ACC FR QB 11 72 134 53.7 927 6.9 6.7 5 3 119.7 *2008 Virginia Tech ACC SO QB 12 99 173 57.2 1036 6.0 4.4 2 7 103.3 *2009 Virginia Tech ACC JR QB 13 136 243 56.0 2311 9.5 9.7 13 5 149.4 *2010 Virginia Tech ACC SR QB 14 188 315 59.7 2743 8.7 9.5 24 5 154.8 Lamar Jackson’s college passing stats (3 years) Passing Year School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate Career Louisville 619 1086 57.0 9043 8.3 8.5 69 27 142.9 *2015 Louisville ACC FR QB 12 135 247 54.7 1840 7.4 7.0 12 8 126.8 *2016 Louisville ACC SO QB 13 230 409 56.2 3543 8.7 9.1 30 9 148.8 2017 Louisville ACC JR QB 13 254 430 59.1 3660 8.5 8.7 27 10 146.6 Their senior numbers are pretty similar.
starrymessenger Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 58 minutes ago, JohnC said: I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your assessment of Mayfield. With respect to the highlighted area I have no interest in Jackson as a dual threat qb in the pros. That's the last thing I want for my qb. My advocacy for Jackson is that I believe in time he will be a good pro qb who can run a full range offense with the benefit of being a judicious runner when need be. If I had the choice between Mayfield and Jackson I would without hesitation take Mayfield. One of Mayfield's best attributes is his stunning accuracy. That attribute easily translates to the pro game. Well as I've indicated I like Mayfield too, but I would take Jackson ahead of him. Obviously Mayfield's greatest attribute is his accuracy. That's important of course, but he offers more than that. He has a lively arm, has good mechanics, is mobile and can make plays in or out of the pocket. He reacts well enuf when rushed and can execute under pressure. But some of the same questions surrounding Rudolphs ability to transition to the NFL in fairness have also yet to be answered by Mayfield. It's easier to play well when your receivers are "college" open, when your O is relatively simple your line and your ground game is very good. As I mentioned some analysts feel that Mayfield has yet to show that he goes through his progressions, that he is not a system baby running a one read college passing offence. Regarding Jackson as a dual threat QB, clearly we are not talking about using him as a running QB here. He needs to be first and foremost a passer who can execute from the pocket. But when a guy has his type of athletic ability you should definitely scheme to take advantage of it when it makes sense to do so. That's what Carolina does with Cam and it's what Houston did with D. Watson last year. It's an added dimension that would not only yield yardage and extend drives but also create difficulties for opposing DCs and open things up for other skill position players. Just makes you so much harder to defence. Imagine if Tyrod was good as a passer in addition to being a threat to run. What would our offence have then been the last couple of years. Possibly dominant IMO. If he bulks up a bit Jackson is a big, sturdy kid. Tyrod has been pretty durable. I believe Jackson would be too. Edited January 21, 2018 by starrymessenger
Captain Murica Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Their senior numbers are pretty similar. Lamar is a junior, and he threw 100 more passes than TT.
starrymessenger Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Their senior numbers are pretty similar. Jackson threw more and for more yards. More to the point, they played in very different offences. It also makes little sense to compare Mayfield's or Rudolph's stat sheet with Allen's or Jackson's. The Os are very different with the pro style being more difficult and the calibre of the supporting skill position players being totally different.
Rob's House Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 I'm not high on LamaRG3 just because I'd prefer a traditional pocket passer, but if we got him without having to trade up I wouldn't hate it. The biggest ? is whether he can read NFL defenses and go through his progressions. If not he's just a rich man's Tyrod Taylor, but that might not be such a bad thing. Michael Vick wasn't great and picking apart defenses and he won a lot of games.
FearLess Price Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Tatonka68 said: Tyrod part 2.No thanks another "gifted" athlete that cannot read a defense. I pass. Did you watch tape? Its obvious he goes through 2-4 reads on certain plays. 1
billsredneck1 Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 2 hours ago, PIZ said: I'm very intrigued with Jackson. The guy is electric. However, I am concerned about this: Completion %: 2015….. 54.7 2016..... 56.2 2017..... 59.1 College career average... 57.0 = NO
Alphadawg7 Posted January 21, 2018 Author Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said: Not much thanks to Taylor, though. Brady threw 65% more TDS in 3 fewer games. You realize there are more than 1 way to score right at TD right? No disrespect, but its this type of comment that drives me crazy. The QB is only part of the offense, and our QB both runs and throws. Its not like we were 3rd in the league in TD's because we had 20 touchdown runs by McCoy that were 80 yard each and TT never touched the ball. TT led the offense down the field where he both used his arm and his leg to get the team in scoring position so we could score points. First off, anyone who ONLY sites his passing stats throwing isn't giving a fair assessment in the first place as he also makes a big contribution with his legs. Second, anyone who compares any QB to one of the 2 greatest QB's to ever play the game is also not giving a fair assessment. More importantly, the scoreboard doesn't care if it was thrown in or run in...the object of the game is to score points, and in 2016 we were 3rd best at it in the whole NFL under TT's leadership of the offense during his 15 starts despite losing our WR"s to injuries, having an inept HC, and firing our OC in week 2. The QB's job is to put the team in position to score points, whether its thrown in or run in, its still 6 points. And 2015 and 2016 are only behind the first 3 SB years as the 2 highest scoring 2 year period in Bills history. TT led offense put up 25 points or more in 10 of his 15 games in 2016 and averaged 26 points per game. That was better than almost all the playoff teams in 2016. So again, no disrespect but your comment is not accurate. I don't care what you or anyone thinks of TT, you don't get to take away his contributions to the points on the board when he was part of almost every one of those scoring drives. This guy led the Bills to snap our 17 year playoff drought and yet he still cant get respect for the positive things he did do for this team. Doesn't matter if you think we need an upgrade, thats fine, but people need to stop discrediting the things he DID do for this team just to further their biased opinion. Edited January 21, 2018 by Alphadawg7
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 Bill Polian is a good GM but his strong suit was evaluating QB's. I don't think their is a better draft evaluator when it comes to QB's. I agree with him in his evaluation of Jackson.
starrymessenger Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rob's House said: I'm not high on LamaRG3 just because I'd prefer a traditional pocket passer, but if we got him without having to trade up I wouldn't hate it. The biggest ? is whether he can read NFL defenses and go through his progressions. If not he's just a rich man's Tyrod Taylor, but that might not be such a bad thing. Michael Vick wasn't great and picking apart defenses and he won a lot of games. He can absolutely read a defence and go through his progressions. Something you should do in watching the tape is look at him in the pocket, see how well he moves to avoid pressure by making sometimes small adjustments, look what happens when the pocket gets smaller or when a d-lineman starts to penetrate the line, he does not bail until the last possible moment all the while beforehand surveying the field. Above all look at his feet in the pocket - they are drop dead quiet. Just check out the tape again. It's right there in front of your eyes. This guy projects as a pocket passer. Of course the fact that he can run like Tyrod or Vick (or maybe better) if he has to is not bad either.
billsredneck1 Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 57 minutes ago, xRUSHx said: The guy is a tooth pick and runs more then he throws, he is going to get squashed in the NFL. He needs a bunch of work just like Allen. Running QBs are dangerous to use as it is In the NFL considering the risk of injury increases with every run but as skinny as he is IMO he is Tyrod at best but more like a Webb in the long run. IMO no thank you, I want a big pocket passer that stays protected by big linemen. Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Rudolph a smart(cerebral) qb with throwing skills = an nfl qb . tt got us nowhere. that running/qb thing may have worked 20 yrs. ago, but it ain't gonna work anymore. that term certainly cannot be mixed with the term franchise qb. 1
starrymessenger Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: Bill Polian is a good GM but his strong suit was evaluating QB's. I don't think their is a better draft evaluator when it comes to QB's. I agree with him in his evaluation of Jackson. Yeah, Bill thought Johhny Football was going to be elite. He works for ESPN now. It's more about hot takes and media traction than analysis. You should try and make up your own mind rather than relying on somebody else.
Putin Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 3 hours ago, mob16151 said: Apropos of nothing,I'd love to see what Daboll would do with Jackson. He's 10x the passer Hurts is. I guess you missed the second half of the championship game I think that Jackson will be drafted MUCH earlier them some you think , and could even be the 4th QB of the board
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