Mayfield or Rudolph

[Captain Murica]

Mayfield, but like the others have stated he won’t be there at 21. I’d be happy with Rudolph at 21 along with Lamar Jackson as they’re 1a and 1b at 21. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

4 is a possibility as well if the Browns sign Cousins and take Barkley. That’s the 3rd part of the question. I would probably prefer the option 2 of “some assets to get up for Baker” over “lots of assets for a top 4 pick” or “no assets for Rudolph or Jackson.” Rosen has been my guy for over 2 years but I’m not sure that I want to pay that price over Baker and the extra picks. This team has too many holes.

 

To me if the Giants are taking calls for #2 I work out the parameters of a trade for it prior to draft day but don't execute it until I see who the Browns pick at #1.  If they don't pick Rosen I execute the trade and select Josh Rosen. If the Browns take Rosen then I don't have Darnold close enough to him to still make the trade to #2 value.  I'm then thinking about where do I need to get to in order to select Mayfield.  I'm still interested in being ahead of the Jets in that scenario and so #4 and (if as I expect the Broncos sign Cousins) #5 are in play.  

 

I would even contemplate a small trade up for Rudolph.  If Rosen, Darnold and Allen or Mayfield are all gone by #6 you might not be able to stand pat and presume Rudolph falls to you, though would be nice if he did. You might, for example want to get ahead of Arizona at #15.  I'm not giving my other first for that move though.  The most I am willing to part with to go from #21 to say #14 is one of my 2nd round picks.  

[Kirby Jackson]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To me if the Giants are taking calls for #2 I work out the parameters of a trade for it prior to draft day but don't execute it until I see who the Browns pick at #1.  If they don't pick Rosen I execute the trade and select Josh Rosen. If the Browns take Rosen then I don't have Darnold close enough to him to still make the trade to #2 value.  I'm then thinking about where do I need to get to in order to select Mayfield.  I'm still interested in being ahead of the Jets in that scenario and so #4 and (if as I expect the Broncos sign Cousins) #5 are in play.  

 

I would even contemplate a small trade up for Rudolph.  If Rosen, Darnold and Allen or Mayfield are all gone by #6 you might not be able to stand pat and presume Rudolph falls to you, though would be nice if he did. You might, for example want to get ahead of Arizona at #15.  I'm not giving my other first for that move though.  The most I am willing to part with to go from #21 to say #14 is one of my 2nd round picks.  

Yeah, I don’t care for Rudolph. I know that you like him. I’d rather Jackson at 21 and that is probably my 4th option (Cousins would come before that). 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Yeah, I don’t care for Rudolph. I know that you like him. I’d rather Jackson at 21 and that is probably my 4th option (Cousins would come before that). 

 

I don't hate Jackson at 21 or 22 if the four guys I have ahead of him are gone and he is still there.  I wouldn't contemplate a trade up for him.  And if you end up with Jackson you better have a bridge ready to play the whole of 2018.  

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't hate Jackson at 21 or 22 if the four guys I have ahead of him are gone and he is still there.  I wouldn't contemplate a trade up for him.  And if you end up with Jackson you better have a bridge ready to play the whole of 2018.  

Agree 100% on that. I almost feel the same way about Allen. Those aren’t day 1 guys for me. You will have to have someone like Bradford for a year. 

 

That is kind of why I wish that the draft was before FA. If I got Rosen I would take a lesser vet and hand Rosen the ball day 1. If I end up with Jackson or Allen I would want a better vet knowing that he probably has to play a whole year (or in Bradford’s case 6 games before he misses the rest of the year with an injury). 

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You will have to have someone like Bradford for a year. 

He said the whole of 2018, not 5 weeks

 

And then I saw the rest of your post.

Edited January 22, 2018 by BuffaloHokie13

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

Agree 100% on that. I almost feel the same way about Allen. Those aren’t day 1 guys for me. You will have to have someone like Bradford for a year. 

 

That is kind of why I wish that the draft was before FA. If I got Rosen I would take a lesser vet and hand Rosen the ball day 1. If I end up with Jackson or Allen I would want a better vet knowing that he probably has to play a whole year (or in Bradford’s case 6 games before he misses the rest of the year with an injury). 

 

Yep.  Totally agree.  My view is that Rosen and Mayfield can play day 1.  Darnold I think could at a push but would benefit from sitting for 4 or 5 weeks and seeing the pace of real NFL games.  Rudolph I think you start with the intention to sit for a full year but you remain open minded to the idea of getting him in after week 10, Jackson needs to have the Mahomes plan this year - a full sit with a week 17 start if the game is a dead rubber.  Allen I think should sit, and sit, and sit, and sit..... and when he asks if he can stand yet you advise him it would be better if he carried on sitting.  Maybe in the stand.  Or at the popcorn concession.  Or somewhere well away from a football stadium.  

[JohnC]

44 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree.  This is the actual question.  Along with would you pay a King's ransom to get to #2? Because I am really starting to believe the Giants are going to ride with Eli and auction off that pick.  

I don't see your scenario of the Giants auctioning off their pick playing out. What was stated in the NFC playoff game was that Shumer was going to get the Giant job with the expectation/directive that he would be involved with the selection of a qb and also the short-term rehabilitation of Eli who is at the last stages of his career. There were also previous multiple reports that the owners sent out an emphatic directive that In this upcoming draft an emphasis should be placed on evaluating qbs. 

 

The Giants are in the rare situation of being in the catbird seat in this draft and having a need to find the next franchise qb. I don't see them squandering that opportunity. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I don't see your scenario of the Giants auctioning off their pick playing out. What was stated in the NFC playoff game was that Shumer was going to get the Giant job with the expectation/directive that he would be involved with the selection of a qb and also the short-term rehabilitation of Eli who is at the last stages of his career. There were also previous multiple reports that the owners sent out an emphatic directive that In this upcoming draft an emphasis should be placed on evaluating qbs. 

 

The Giants are in the rare situation of being in the catbird seat in this draft and having a need to find the next franchise qb. I don't see them squandering that opportunity. 

 

We will see. I don't think they are going to go QB at #2 as of now..... but who knows whether that changes once Shurmer is in the building.  

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

We will see. I don't think they are going to go QB at #2 as of now..... but who knows whether that changes once Shurmer is in the building.  

The reason why I disagree with you on this issue is that it is rare for the Giants to be in this draft position. Seizing the opportunity to draft Rosen is a match between opportunity and need. They are in a fortuitous situation to get that position  addressed for the next decade or longer. And to enhance the situation even more they have a fading veteran qb as a one year bridge.  The situation lines up so perfectly that it would be foolish to walk away from that opportunity. And as you noted Shurmer was brought into the building because he knows offenses and how to work with qbs.  

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 The situation lines up so perfectly that it would be foolish to walk away from that opportunity. And as you noted Shurmer was brought into the building because he knows offenses and how to work with qbs.  

 

When have NFL Franchises ever not been foolish?

 

Part of it for me, and I know there is a long time to go and my opinion might well change, is that I don't think it is a golden opportunity as you paint it because of Eli's personality and because of what he has done for the franchise.  Eli isn't going to groom his replacement.  He pretty much told Mara that when he was ridiculously benched for Geno freaking Smith.  Eli will undermine the new guy at every opportunity and take the chance to drag his forces in the locker room behind him.  He actively campaigned for the benching of Kurt Warner when he was a rookie.  He wants to play and he wants to be the Quarterback of the New York Football Giants.  I don't see much of a way of keeping Eli and drafting a guy in the top 2 that doesn't become totally toxic in the first year of a new regime.  In theory, you are of course right John, this is the perfect position to be in. But in practice I don't know that it works out that way.  

[BuffaloHokie13]

Also, I'll be the weirdo here. It's fine. I'd take Rudolph, even if they were both available at 21.

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

When have NFL Franchises ever not been foolish?

 

Part of it for me, and I know there is a long time to go and my opinion might well change, is that I don't think it is a golden opportunity as you paint it because of Eli's personality and because of what he has done for the franchise.  Eli isn't going to groom his replacement.  He pretty much told Mara that when he was ridiculously benched for Geno freaking Smith.  Eli will undermine the new guy at every opportunity and take the chance to drag his forces in the locker room behind him.  He actively campaigned for the benching of Kurt Warner when he was a rookie.  He wants to play and he wants to be the Quarterback of the New York Football Giants.  I don't see much of a way of keeping Eli and drafting a guy in the top 2 that doesn't become totally toxic in the first year of a new regime.  In theory, you are of course right John, this is the perfect position to be in. But in practice I don't know that it works out that way.  

Your response is well presented and has a logic to it but it doesn't make sense to me. Eli is no longer the center of the universe for the franchise. He is a spent force. The focus of franchise is to find another franchise qb that will be anchored for the next decade or so. There is a simple solution to an Eli rebellion: get rid of him. His value has been depleted. There is little left in that checking account other than loose change. There are plenty of mediocre qbs around that can do what he is now capable of doing. When one is a shadow of his once self there is little force behind that fading presence.

 

The matchup of the draft position and qb need is too glaring. The football people might be willing to act cutely in this situation but the owner/s are not going to allow such wayward behavior. I'm not confident on whom the Bills will draft in the first round and what they will do on the day of the draft. With respect to the Giants I'm very confident as to what the Giants will do.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Your response is well presented and has a logic to it but it doesn't make sense to me. Eli is no longer the center of the universe for the franchise. He is a spent force. The focus of franchise is to find another franchise qb that will be anchored for the next decade or so. There is a simple solution to an Eli rebellion: get rid of him. His value has been depleted. There is little left in that checking account other than loose change. There are plenty of mediocre qbs around that can do what he is now capable of doing. When one is a shadow of his once self there is little force behind that fading presence.

 

The matchup of the draft position and qb need is too glaring. The football people might be willing to act cutely in this situation but the owner/s are not going to allow such wayward behavior. I'm not confident on whom the Bills will draft in the first round and what they will do on the day of the draft. With respect to the Giants I'm very confident as to what the Giants will do.  

 

The bolded is absolutely what they should do.  They made that harder with the stupid benching because it unleashed this tidal wave of support for Eli which I don't think would have happened if they had treated him with respect, let him play out the season and then said "it's time for a fresh start."

[Chicken Boo]

1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Also, I'll be the weirdo here. It's fine. I'd take Rudolph, even if they were both available at 21.

 

Not weird at all.  I'll be legit pissed if we end up doucher Mayfield.

 

Wait until those height and hand measurements come in on Tuesday.

[JohnC]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded is absolutely what they should do.  They made that harder with the stupid benching because it unleashed this tidal wave of support for Eli which I don't think would have happened if they had treated him with respect, let him play out the season and then said "it's time for a fresh start."

You make a terrific point on the repercussions of the crass handling of the Eli benching. But from a franchise point of view it is never easy to remove, temporarily or permanently, the veteran qb, especially when the replacements are problematic as options. The Taylor benching had the same vibes causing distress not only within the locker room but also with the fandom ranks. The sports talk radio business also stoked the fire. My feeling on Taylor is for his sake and the franchise's he needs to go. A fresh start can be invigorating for all the parties involved. 

 

The reality about Eli is that he has little left in his tank. To make it worse he has little market value. The most realistic direction if he wants to extend his career is to be a willing backup. If he feels that role is not right for him then he should leave and seek whatever solution he can find. What he will learn is that his appeal is close to being nonexistent as a starter. The same scenario will apply to Taylor. Sometimes what you think you are is not the same as what others see in you.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/22/2018 at 8:14 AM, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Also, I'll be the weirdo here. It's fine. I'd take Rudolph, even if they were both available at 21.

 

Wierdo!

[JohnC]

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 5:08 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s Baker and it isn’t close IMO. There’s no chance that he makes it to 21 though. The question should be pick 21 and 53 (and maybe a 4th) to get up to get Baker (if he gets to like 12) or stay put and take Rudolph. 

I agree that without question Baker would be the preference over Rudolph. But the more interesting question is whether the brain trust would be willing to give up a boatload of picks such as both first round picks, a second and another second next year to get Baker or stand pat and get Rudolph with one of their first round picks.

 

I would rather pay the price to move up and get Baker because he is such a dynamic player. However, if the fallback position is to stay at our current draft spots Rudolph would be a good consolation. There is another caveat that needs to be considered. What happens if the Bills wait and there is a run of qb selections and Rudolph is plucked ahead of us? Because of that risk I want Buffalo to be aggressive in this draft. Even if it means giving up something to move up to get Rudolph.

 

In my view the most critical mission is to come out of this draft with a high end qb prospect. If that is not accomplished it is an organizational failure.  

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I agree that without question Baker would be the preference over Rudolph. But the more interesting question is whether the brain trust would be willing to give up a boatload of picks such as both first round picks, a second and another second next year to get Baker or stand pat and get Rudolph with one of their first round picks.

 

I would rather pay the price to move up and get Baker because he is such a dynamic player. However, if the fallback position is to stay at our current draft spots Rudolph would be a good consolation. There is another caveat that needs to be considered. What happens if the Bills wait and there is a run of qb selections and Rudolph is plucked ahead of us? Because of that risk I want Buffalo to be aggressive in this draft. Even if it means giving up something to move up to get Rudolph.

 

In my view the most critical mission is to come out of this draft with a high end qb prospect. If that is not accomplished it is an organizational failure.  

I think that there is little to no chance that Rudolph goes before the Bills pick. In fact, there’s a decent chance that he makes it to their 2nd round pick (not saying that they wait until 53). It sounds like “football people” don’t love him. Now that can certainly change between now and the draft. The Bills must see something as they went to see him live a few times.

 

With that being said, I don’t see the Bills trading up for a guy that they aren’t completely sold on. They will take a pretty conservative approach. 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Kirby Jackson

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that there is little to no chance that Rudolph goes before the Bills pick. In fact, there’s a decent chance that he makes it to their 2nd round pick (not saying that they wait until 53). It sounds like “football people” don’t love him. Now that can certainly change between now and the draft. The Bills must see something as they went to see him live a few times.

 

With that being said, I don’t see the Bills trading up for a guy that they aren’t completely sold on. They will take a pretty conservative approach. 

With respect to Rudolph when I say trading up for him I mean making a less costly deal to move up a few spots just to make sure that he is available if they get an inkling that another team is interested in him. I have said it on a number of other posts that I believe that if the Bills don't aggressively move up for one of the top three prospects they will select Rudolph at their current draft position. He fits Beane's profile for a player. I just get the sense that the organization seems to have an affinity for him because he is their type of guy.