GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: Man......I remember in past Buffalo installs the west coast offense "took 3 years to master" and now it's "paint by numbers". So much of the Bills offensive struggles were the result of a lack of receiver/QB familiarity. The offense was certainly not a best fit scenario for Taylor........but when they dumped Watkins I knew the passing game was going to be a complete sh*t show. It's telling to me that he kept feeding Zay Jones whenever he was on the field.........despite how reliably bad Jones was........because that was the guy he at least practiced with prior to the season. !@#$ing KB was still lining up in the wrong spot in the Dolphins and Jags games for chrissake. You didn't here that from me. The offense the Bills ran in 2017 was as close as paint by numbers as the NFL gets. I have already accepted that the Bills failure to run it effectively was not all on Tyrod and was in part really sloppy WR play. I have said multiple times that the WR coach would have been my first firing this offseason based on what is on tape. But you continue to cut Tyrod more slack than I believe the tape allows. He was a big part of the passing game failure this year and I simply don't see how the Daboll offense is a better fit. The "why get worse?" argument doesn't wash with me because of the 3 options I was putting forward last offseason 2 have proven decent choices. I agree it is a bad idea to by choice get worse at QB. I disagree on some of the people you would argue are included by that. Why? Because you continue to think Tyrod is better than he is.
transplantbillsfan Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 58 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Feel free to waste your time arguing semantics. I was commenting on his body of work, not a handful of plays. These aren't semantics, it's something that you said that's just patently false. His body of work says Tyrod is most successful in play action passes, which is not an insignificant amount of passes. You said this offense relies heavily on play action passes and you said Tyrod can't execute them. You were wrong. There's nothing wrong with being wrong every once in awhile. Did you mean something else? Then maybe you weren't wrong, maybe you're just bad at putting what you think into words. I get that you don't like Tyrod, but it seems to be clouding your view of him. Edited January 21, 2018 by transplantbillsfan
BringBackOrton Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: These aren't semantics, it's something that you said that's just patently false. His body of work says Tyrod is most successful in play action passes, which is not an insignificant amount of passes. I get that you don't like Tyrod, but it seems to be clouding your view of him. Like I said, semantics. Tyrod has not been trusted to turn his back to opposing D's on the PA under center by 3 OC's, which is why they are not called very much. It's speculative, but I imagine that has something to do with 1 less second to process the field, something that TT struggles with even given an unshortened amount of time. Edited January 21, 2018 by jmc12290
transplantbillsfan Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 Just now, jmc12290 said: Like I said, semantics. Tyrod has not been trusted to turn his back to opposing D's on the PA under center by 3 OC's, which is why they are not called very much. It's speculative, but I imagine that has something to do with 1 less second to process the field. Not semantics. Clearly you meant something you didn't say. That's fine. Even what you say here is speculative, on your part. No matter. Your perspective is that Tyrod wasn't entrusted very much in the play action pass game and, therefore, he must not be able to do it very well, right? My perspective is that Tyrod was excellent overall when asked to do play action passing over the last 3 years and asking him to do something he excelled at more rather than less would be a good thing rather than a bad thing for the passing game.
BringBackOrton Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Not semantics. Clearly you meant something you didn't say. That's fine. Even what you say here is speculative, on your part. No matter. Your perspective is that Tyrod wasn't entrusted very much in the play action pass game and, therefore, he must not be able to do it very well, right? My perspective is that Tyrod was excellent overall when asked to do play action passing over the last 3 years and asking him to do something he excelled at more rather than less would be a good thing rather than a bad thing for the passing game. Yeah, probably not. I don't see Rico, Roman and Lynn watching TT light it up in practice and ALL 3 deciding to not run a lot of PA under center.
transplantbillsfan Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Foxx said: just curious here... what has Tyrod ever done to make you believe he would excell in an offense that most likely will require the QB to read the defense pre-snap? i remember this time last year when most of BBmB was saying how Tyrod was going to excell in the WCO, while i was close to the lone dissenting voice saying there was no way in hell Tyrod would excell in a timing offense. smh Ya know I think some people think Taylor's the dumbest QB to ever play. I've seen posts pretty much directly saying this recently. I'm not going to bother arguing this. There's no point. I don't think Taylor's dumb. He's probably been playing QB for 15-20 years, he's a college graduate and he's been an NFL starter at the most important position for 3 seasons. That doesn't happen for someone who's dumb. Taylor is very much a capable NFL QB. I think Dabol is going to see what Taylor can do physically and then he's going to want to work with him. This doesn't mean work solely with him, it means draft a more talented young QB, work with Taylor for a year, pull Taylor's best year out of him, and then put the more talented rookie in the following year who is even more successful... all the while increasing Dabol's own stock. The system doesn't really require more intelligence than the WCO or Air Coryell after reading up on it because it's very maleable. Yes, it might operate best with a QB who can essentially operate as a coach on the field like Brady or Peyton, but having one of those guys isn't necessary for a successful E-P offense. It just requires an OC who can adjust to what he's working with. And from what I've read, Dabol is pretty good at adjusting to what he has: http://www.cover1.net/offensive-coordinator-brian-daboll-could-bridge-the-college-and-nfl-game-in-buffalo/ "A large playbook is a good thing to have because it makes it much more difficult for opponents to prepare for. But a large playbook must be one that is easy for college and NFL players to learn. It must have a language that is easy to digest and remember. That was evident in this National Championship game. Tagovailoa and Hurts were able to run lots of tempo to tire out the defense, but the simplicity of the scheme gave Tagovailoa the ability to easily call audibles at the line of scrimmage like he does on this play. Tagovailoa checks to outside zone late in the fourth quarter." and "Daboll is able to use creative personnel groupings and looks on offense to confuse defenses, all while making things as easy as possible for his QB and offensive unit as a whole." 1 hour ago, jmc12290 said: Yeah, probably not. I don't see Rico, Roman and Lynn watching TT light it up in practice and ALL 3 deciding to not run a lot of PA under center. No worries. You don't see it. Quite possible you need glasses Edited January 21, 2018 by transplantbillsfan
BringBackOrton Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 18 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Ya know I think some people think Taylor's the dumbest QB to ever play. I've seen posts pretty much directly saying this recently. I'm not going to bother arguing this. There's no point. I don't think Taylor's dumb. He's probably been playing QB for 15-20 years, he's a college graduate and he's been an NFL starter at the most important position for 3 seasons. That doesn't happen for someone who's dumb. Taylor is very much a capable NFL QB. I think Dabol is going to see what Taylor can do physically and then he's going to want to work with him. This doesn't mean work solely with him, it means draft a more talented young QB, work with Taylor for a year, pull Taylor's best year out of him, and then put the more talented rookie in the following year who is even more successful... all the while increasing Dabol's own stock. The system doesn't really require more intelligence than the WCO or Air Coryell after reading up on it because it's very maleable. Yes, it might operate best with a QB who can essentially operate as a coach on the field like Brady or Peyton, but having one of those guys isn't necessary for a successful E-P offense. It just requires an OC who can adjust to what he's working with. And from what I've read, Dabol is pretty good at adjusting to what he has: http://www.cover1.net/offensive-coordinator-brian-daboll-could-bridge-the-college-and-nfl-game-in-buffalo/ "A large playbook is a good thing to have because it makes it much more difficult for opponents to prepare for. But a large playbook must be one that is easy for college and NFL players to learn. It must have a language that is easy to digest and remember. That was evident in this National Championship game. Tagovailoa and Hurts were able to run lots of tempo to tire out the defense, but the simplicity of the scheme gave Tagovailoa the ability to easily call audibles at the line of scrimmage like he does on this play. Tagovailoa checks to outside zone late in the fourth quarter." and "Daboll is able to use creative personnel groupings and looks on offense to confuse defenses, all while making things as easy as possible for his QB and offensive unit as a whole." No worries. You don't see it. Quite possible you need glasses 4th OC's the charm?
transplantbillsfan Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jmc12290 said: Yeah, probably not. I don't see Rico, Roman and Lynn watching TT light it up in practice and ALL 3 deciding to not run a lot of PA under center. Let's make this very very clear... here's the reason I think this is good, not bad: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2016/2015-play-action-offense Who is #1 in play action in any passing play, whatsoever? also... https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/09/buffalo_bills_secret_weapon_is_the_play-action_pass_says_espn_insider.amp ESPN Insider had Pro Football Focus look at every team's secret weaponthrough three games and it's hard to argue with the analytics site when you see how well Tyrod Taylor has thrown off of play-action pass plays. PFF wrote that no quarterback has a higher rating than Taylor when using play-action. Tyrod Taylor has been impressive again in 2017. Much of that has to do with the damage he can do on the back of the Buffalo running game with play-action passes. Taylor's passer rating when using play-action is 144.1 -- the best in the league -- while his passer rating on plays without a run fake is 84.7. Taylor has a yards-per-attempt average 4 yards higher when using play-action and is completing 78.9 percent of his passes. Taylor's overall stat line this season won't blow anyone away. The Bills' starting quarterback has thrown for 562 yards through three games with four touchdowns and one interception. However, it's apparent that the play-action pass is working for Taylor based on his passer rating, completion percentage and yards-per-attempt average.
JaCrispy Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: 4th OC's the charm? If McD is smart he will jettison Tyrod so a 4th OC doesn’t lose his job.
BringBackOrton Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Let's make this very very clear... here's the reason I think this is good, not bad: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2016/2015-play-action-offense Who is #1 in play action in any passing play, whatsoever? also... https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/09/buffalo_bills_secret_weapon_is_the_play-action_pass_says_espn_insider.amp ESPN Insider had Pro Football Focus look at every team's secret weaponthrough three games and it's hard to argue with the analytics site when you see how well Tyrod Taylor has thrown off of play-action pass plays. PFF wrote that no quarterback has a higher rating than Taylor when using play-action. Tyrod Taylor has been impressive again in 2017. Much of that has to do with the damage he can do on the back of the Buffalo running game with play-action passes. Taylor's passer rating when using play-action is 144.1 -- the best in the league -- while his passer rating on plays without a run fake is 84.7. Taylor has a yards-per-attempt average 4 yards higher when using play-action and is completing 78.9 percent of his passes. Taylor's overall stat line this season won't blow anyone away. The Bills' starting quarterback has thrown for 562 yards through three games with four touchdowns and one interception. However, it's apparent that the play-action pass is working for Taylor based on his passer rating, completion percentage and yards-per-attempt average. Those do not distinguish between under center and in the shotgun. As I'm sure you know, we ran quite a bit of PA in the gun. 1
transplantbillsfan Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Those do not distinguish between under center and in the shotgun. As I'm sure you know, we ran quite a bit of PA in the gun. Wow... you're desperate for this to not be true. Kinda sad. I've seen these stats in the past with Taylor under center. One of the articles I just posted even shows you a play or two as an example. I'm not doing the searching. You won't believe the sky is blue even if you step outside without a cloud in sight. Have at it, bro. Enjoy your mythology.
BringBackOrton Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said: Wow... you're desperate for this to not be true. Kinda sad. I've seen these stats in the past with Taylor under center. One of the articles I just posted even shows you a play or two as an example. I'm not doing the searching. You won't believe the sky is blue even if you step outside without a cloud in sight. Have at it, bro. Enjoy your mythology. I literally made the distinction of "under center" being very important. Because, you know, PA from the gun does not require the QB to turn around to sell the fake. This is football 101 bro. Take a seat, and you might learn something about the sport.
hemma Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 | ......Worm? finger? tiny sword? breadstick? coin slot! Eiffel Tower? Mt Kilamanjaro?.... Only robe wearing acolytes can identify Tandem Bicycle Throw it!
Foxx Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, hemma said: ...Throw it! ... was the sounds often heard in many a Bill's land. throw the damn ball tyrod.... 3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Ya know I think some people think Taylor's the dumbest QB to ever play. I've seen posts pretty much directly saying this recently. I'm not going to bother arguing this. There's no point. I don't think Taylor's dumb. He's probably been playing QB for 15-20 years, he's a college graduate and he's been an NFL starter at the most important position for 3 seasons. That doesn't happen for someone who's dumb. Taylor is very much a capable NFL QB. I think Dabol is going to see what Taylor can do physically and then he's going to want to work with him. This doesn't mean work solely with him, it means draft a more talented young QB, work with Taylor for a year, pull Taylor's best year out of him, and then put the more talented rookie in the following year who is even more successful... all the while increasing Dabol's own stock. The system doesn't really require more intelligence than the WCO or Air Coryell after reading up on it because it's very maleable. Yes, it might operate best with a QB who can essentially operate as a coach on the field like Brady or Peyton, but having one of those guys isn't necessary for a successful E-P offense. It just requires an OC who can adjust to what he's working with. And from what I've read, Dabol is pretty good at adjusting to what he has: http://www.cover1.net/offensive-coordinator-brian-daboll-could-bridge-the-college-and-nfl-game-in-buffalo/ "A large playbook is a good thing to have because it makes it much more difficult for opponents to prepare for. But a large playbook must be one that is easy for college and NFL players to learn. It must have a language that is easy to digest and remember. That was evident in this National Championship game. Tagovailoa and Hurts were able to run lots of tempo to tire out the defense, but the simplicity of the scheme gave Tagovailoa the ability to easily call audibles at the line of scrimmage like he does on this play. Tagovailoa checks to outside zone late in the fourth quarter." and "Daboll is able to use creative personnel groupings and looks on offense to confuse defenses, all while making things as easy as possible for his QB and offensive unit as a whole." No worries. You don't see it. Quite possible you need glasses i don't think anyone here thinks Tyrod is dumb. to equate the intellect one needs to be an effecive starting NFL QB, with being a college graduate is, well i don't want to say dumb but.... Tyrod is not very capable, if you can't see what Ray Charles could see with his back turned and ears plugged, i don't know what to tell you. clearly it doesn't mean anything at all that the passing offense was ranked 28, 30 and 31st in Tyrods three years here. not to mention that each year the ranking got worse. oh, thats right... it was the OC's fault. pull your damn head out of the sand, ostrich. Edited January 21, 2018 by Foxx
transplantbillsfan Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jmc12290 said: I literally made the distinction of "under center" being very important. Because, you know, PA from the gun does not require the QB to turn around to sell the fake. This is football 101 bro. Take a seat, and you might learn something about the sport. And Taylor has literally been excellent under center in PA in his first 3 years. Guaranteed. Stats have been posted and evidence is there since 2015. Football 101 bro. 20 minutes ago, Foxx said: ... was the sounds often heard in many a Bill's land. throw the damn ball tyrod.... i don't think anyone here thinks Tyrod is dumb. to equate the intellect one needs to be an effecive starting NFL QB, with being a college graduate is, well i don't want to say dumb but.... Tyrod is not very capable, if you can't see what Ray Charles could see with his back turned and ears plugged, i don't know what to tell you. clearly it doesn't mean anything at all that the passing offense was ranked 28, 30 and 31st in Tyrods three years here. not to mention that each year the ranking got worse. oh, thats right... it was the OC's fault. pull your damn head out of the sand, ostrich. I naturally will as soon as we move past Tyrod. Would you stubbornly keep your head in the sand if our OC chooses Tyrod as our week 1 starting QB? Certainly not something I think absolutely will or is even incredibly likely to happen, but very possible.
Foxx Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: ... I naturally will as soon as we move past Tyrod. Would you stubbornly keep your head in the sand if our OC chooses Tyrod as our week 1 starting QB? Certainly not something I think absolutely will or is even incredibly likely to happen, but very possible. there is something to be said for being so clung to a stance, blindly looking for crumbs . there is also something to be said for hanging on to an anchor regardless of whether or not it is just about to hit sea-bottom. i'll leave those metaphors/euphamisms to someone else though. Edited January 21, 2018 by Foxx
transplantbillsfan Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Foxx said: there is something to be said for being so clung to a stance, blindly looking for crumbs . there is also something to be said for hanging on to an anchor regardless of whether or not it is just about to hit sea-bottom. i'll leave those metaphors/euphamisms to someone else though. Which of us is looking for crumbs and which of us is hanging onto an anchor? It's natural to draw that line in the sand. I get it. But I don't think this distinction is as clearly defined as you obviously believe it is
GunnerBill Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 5 hours ago, jmc12290 said: I literally made the distinction of "under center" being very important. Because, you know, PA from the gun does not require the QB to turn around to sell the fake. This is football 101 bro. Take a seat, and you might learn something about the sport. I don't think the reason they didn't run much PA from under centre is because they don't think Tyrod can execute that. It is because of the other things he can't execute from under centre. I forget what the stat is but one of the adjustments Rico made at the bye (you know the adjustments he never made....) was less under centre and more TT in the gun. They had worked out Tyrod was more comfortable in shotgun or pistol formation. It wasn't the PA from under centre that was the catalyst for that change it was the drop back passing under centre which is even more timing critical in the WCO. Those were the plays Tyrod was really struggling with. So he play action passed more from the shotgun because they could do more things with him from the gun.
Foxx Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Which of us is looking for crumbs and which of us is hanging onto an anchor? It's natural to draw that line in the sand. I get it. But I don't think this distinction is as clearly defined as you obviously believe it is ummm... i'm quite certain you are doing both. Edited January 21, 2018 by Foxx
Bills Pimpin' Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 There have been many times I have been amazed by Tyrod Taylor on the football field. Every time it has been him miraculously avoiding a pass rusher (or 3) and running or throwing it on a broken play. Never has it been a cerebral play call presnap where he recognized a defense and made an adjustment and rarely because of a great throw. That doesn't make him dumb, but to say he isn't in the bottom third of QB's with QB smarts is just lying to yourself. Personally I think Badoll and and McD move on from him for this reason more than any. They are going to trade him in for a smarter, better thrower of the football. Similar to what Badoll and Saban did in the second half of the National Championship game. 1
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