This franchise has no ambition to win if they keep Dennison

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, jeremy2020 said:

oh joy, a yeezus thread. 

He's not wrong though

[BillsfanAZ]

I think my biggest problem with Dennison is his route design and conservative play calling. Not sure if it was his WR's not running them right or the desgin. I cant stand to see WR's go a certain distance and turn to wait for the ball. Not many of his routes were designed for YAC. Either that or Taylor didnt hit the WR at the right time in the route. Even in the Jags game I saw multiple Bills WR in the same area. Recipe for disaster. When was the last time you saw Taylor hit a WR on a quick slant or deep post? 

[BillsFan130]

9 minutes ago, yungmack said:

Now explain the drop off with essentially the same personnel from the previous two years. 

I will already give you his/ the excuses. 

 

"It's part of the process to see if Taylor can throw in an NFL offence".

 

That is such a lame excuse.

 

I would have maybe bought that if the Bills were tanking and they wanted to see if TT could succeed in that type of offence.

 

But when they are in the playoffs and need to win games, its inexcusable to justify Dennison's schemes/play calling

 

[xRUSHx]

43 minutes ago, yungmack said:

Now explain the drop off with essentially the same personnel from the previous two years. 

When the QB is not good enough it is what happens. Tyrod was never good enough, 4 years of sitting and learning , 3 years as a starter and still is not good enough. He has regressed because he is not good enough and when you have a limited short bus scheme for your limited QB it is less that teams have to use to stop him.

 

I hate the "we made him be a QB", sure would be nice to have a QB teams are worried to make a QB not laugh at.

Edited January 10, 2018 by xRUSHx

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Like I said, they'll give him a QB who can run his system and then his evaluation will begin.

Taylor isn't a good passer, so blaming the OC for the QBs obvious short comings seems foolish. 

Come on jr38. Rick Dennison made dozens of terrible calls in weird situations that had nothing to do with Tyrod's inadequacies. I just think there are better and younger OC candidates out there that would better fit Sean's philosophy.  Not to mention I wouldn't trust Rico with a young pocket passer. 

[TPS]

40 minutes ago, Best Player Available said:

Also a savior peterman thread to complete the trifecta..

Cheezus is our savior then...

[Charlottebillsfan2]

I personally wouldn’t mind seeing some continuity on this team. This team just made the playoffs. How about we build off the success. Add a new qb and upgrade the wr talent.  

[RiotAct]

4 hours ago, Yeezus said:

 

this is a passing league. The Bills won't win anything if they run the ball more then they pass. name 1 team still in the playoffs that has a run first offense. 

Isn’t Jacksonille run-first?  And New Orleans this year, for that matter.

[Shaw66]

6 hours ago, Yeezus said:

No more excuses. OC's are being fired left and right and there is plenty of good choices out there.

 

The fact that we haven't fired Dennison yet worries me. He was piss poor this season, prob the worst OC I've seen here since the Jauron era. This guy has no idea what it takes to run a successful offense in this league. Him and his staff ruined our #1 run game and top 10 scoring offense. Yes the QB play was underwhelming this season but there were still so many bad games Dennison had. 

 

Not to mention, pairing your franchise QB with a quality OC is one of the most important things towards their development. I do not trust Dennison for one second to develop a young QB. I want him far away from Buffalo as possible right now.

 

Go get Bevell or make John DeFilippo from the Eagles the highest paid OC in the league. DeFilippo is part of the reason why Wentz is so good, this guy knows his stuff. 

What BS.   Every time some part of the Bills didn't perform as well as some poster would like, the solution is to fire people.  

 

It's so ignorant.   It demonstrates no understanding of how people and teams develop and progress.   

 

In 2000, BIll Belichick took over as HC of the Patriots.   He hired Charlie Weis as his OC.    That season the Pats finished 22 in yards and 25th in points in the league.   Their record was 5-11.   FIre him, right?   Uh, no.  The next season they were11-5, 19th in yards, 6th in points and won the Super Bowl.  

 

In his previous three seasons as OC of the Jets, Weis had one year when they were 4th in yards and 5th in points.   The other two seasons they were 22 and 25 and in yards and 12 and 109 in points.   

 

Dennison had been an OC in the NFL for 6 seasons before coming to Buffalo.   His best season his team was 3rd in yards and 9th in points.   Another season they were 7th in yards and 8th in points. 

 

Yeah, lets fire him.   

 

So much nonsense.

 

Maybe they'll fire Dennison, maybe they won't.   But one season that didn't meet some poster's standards ain't the reason.

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree, McBeane won't fire Dennison for not adapting his scheme to Taylor.  I don't think he'll fire him after 1 year just to "upgrade", either.

 

I'm not sure that means Dennison won't be fired.  As I said elsewhere, I think McDermott will do a methodical assessment of Dennison's performance as a play caller vs down and distance, his game management, and (I hope) his assessment of player capabilities vs the position he put them in - I don't mean just Taylor/Peterman, but DiMarco and Tolbert and some of the WR. 

 

I think when that completes, there's at least 50-50 odds Dennison goes because my drive-by view is that he's sucked and if you're going to make a change, the time to do it is BEFORE you bring in a new QB, especially a rookie.

 

But I don't know.

I think you're correct about this.   And after the methodical assessment, he won't fire him.   He'll meet with him and work with him to change the things that McDermott wants changed.   

 

I mentioned Belichick above.   Do you think every OC and every DC he's hired comes in doing the entire job the way Belichick wants him to do it?   Of course not.   Belichick works with him.  That's what McDermott will do.   He's not going to give up on a proven NFL OC just because the Bills' first-year offense with a weak QB wasn't as good as McD wanted. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Shaw66

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

What BS.   Every time some part of the Bills didn't perform as well as some poster would like, the solution is to fire people.  

 

It's so ignorant.   It demonstrates no understanding of how people and teams develop and progress.   

 

In 2000, BIll Belichick took over as HC of the Patriots.   He hired Charlie Weis as his OC.    That season the Pats finished 22 in yards and 25th in points in the league.   Their record was 5-11.   FIre him, right?   Uh, no.  The next season they were11-5, 19th in yards, 6th in points and won the Super Bowl.  

 

In his previous three seasons as OC of the Jets, Weis had one year when they were 4th in yards and 5th in points.   The other two seasons they were 22 and 25 and in yards and 12 and 109 in points.   

 

Dennison had been an OC in the NFL for 6 seasons before coming to Buffalo.   His best season his team was 3rd in yards and 9th in points.   Another season they were 7th in yards and 8th in points. 

 

Yeah, lets fire him.   

 

So much nonsense.

 

Maybe they'll fire Dennison, maybe they won't.   But one season that didn't meet some poster's standards ain't the reason.

A touch misleading in that Dennison had never called plays before. In fact there was another guy with virtually equal power AND Kubiak in Denver. This was really Dennison’s first shot at it and he didn’t do well. They regressed pretty much across the board with virtually the same personnel. People are calling for him to be fired because he was bad at his job. No one can be comfortable with that guy developing the young QB. Lastly, a few guys that McDermott PREFERRED to Dennison are now available (that doesn’t even take into account guys like Bevell). It’s an easy decision IMO and still haven’t seen a logical argument against it. The best people have is “he needs more time.” No one is on record with what they like about his scheme. They regressed across the board!!

[Happy]

Peyton Manning and the 2015 Broncos offense regressed under Dennison.  They're fortunate that the defense and Wade Phillips were so good that they overcame the Dennison handicap.

[Dorkington]

I have no clue what sort of QB fits this system... the dink and dunk quick thrower type? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

What BS.   Every time some part of the Bills didn't perform as well as some poster would like, the solution is to fire people.  

It's so ignorant.   It demonstrates no understanding of how people and teams develop and progress.   

 

In 2000, BIll Belichick took over as HC of the Patriots.   He hired Charlie Weis as his OC.    That season the Pats finished 22 in yards and 25th in points in the league.   Their record was 5-11.   FIre him, right?   Uh, no.  The next season they were11-5, 19th in yards, 6th in points and won the Super Bowl.  

 

In his previous three seasons as OC of the Jets, Weis had one year when they were 4th in yards and 5th in points.   The other two seasons they were 22 and 25 and in yards and 12 and 109 in points.  

 

In case anyone misses the Shaw's point "Let's Not be Hasty", between 2000 and 2004 when Weis left to coach Notre Dame, the Pats won 3 superbowls

 

There's a couple factors that go into my 50-50 guess though.  First off, there has to be enough similarity of thinking that the boss trusts things can be changed to go the way the boss wants them.  If there's a difference of philosophy that's sufficiently fundamental, this may not be able to happen.  The second is, the boss has to be able to rely on his subordinant's judgement.  If it's true that Dennison wanted to start Peterman and he talked McDermott into it, his player personnel judgement may be fatally flawed.

 

Not to be overlooked: that decision did kind of make McDermott look like a fool on a national stage.  "Don't piss in your boss's wheaties; don't make your boss look bad".

 

So I see it as a possibility, but not a certainty, and absolutely not because Dennison didn't adapt his scheme to Taylor or because McDermott wants to upgrade.  If it happens, it will be some combination of McDermott losing faith in Dennison's player personnel judgement and deciding his philosophy is too different to be able make desired changes.

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

A touch misleading in that Dennison had never called plays before. In fact there was another guy with virtually equal power AND Kubiak in Denver. This was really Dennison’s first shot at it and he didn’t do well. They regressed pretty much across the board with virtually the same personnel. People are calling for him to be fired because he was bad at his job. No one can be comfortable with that guy developing the young QB. Lastly, a few guys that McDermott PREFERRED to Dennison are now available (that doesn’t even take into account guys like Bevell). It’s an easy decision IMO and still haven’t seen a logical argument against it. The best people have is “he needs more time.” No one is on record with what they like about his scheme. They regressed across the board!!

So he never called plays.   That means you're ready to give up him - you don't think he can't improve at that job in his second season?

 

Bad at his job?   Nobody here knows if he was good at his job or bad at his job.   His job entails a lot of different things, most of which none of us ever sees.   All we know is that the offense wasn't good this year, but there can be multiple reasons for that.   McDermott is the only person really in position to know whether Dennison was good at his job and whether Dennison is capable of developing a consistently good offense. 

 

McDermott PREFERRED some other guys?   How in the world do you know that?   DId I miss the press conference where McD announced his top five candidates for the job?   Now, for the sake of argument, if it's true that he preferred some other guys, I'll agree with you - McD should at least consider making a change.   It would depend on how much better some other guy would be, in McD's opinion.   But McD has to have at least some second thoughts about these guys you think he preferred, because if they're now available they've lost their previous jobs, so exactly how good are these guys he preferred?

 

My real bottom line is that McDermott believes in the process, and the process is teaching and development.   He fully understood that all that he's doing wouldn't take hold in the first season, that he will learn and grow from season one to season two, and his coaches and players will, too.   If they aren't learning and growing, they'll go.   I also think he's loyal; he expects his players to commit to one another, and I think he expects his coaches to commit to one another.   He holds himself to that standard.   So I don't see him pulling the plug on Dennison after a year because Dennison's learning process hasn't run it's course.   McD believes, I'm sure, that it's his job to work with Dennison, tell him what he liked and didn't like and then work on improvements.   The only way, in my mind, the McD cuts Dennison loose is if the guy was a total disappointment, couldn't do anything, bucked the system and was difficult to work with.  I seriously doubt that's McD's view of year one. 

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In case anyone misses the Shaw's point "Let's Not be Hasty", between 2000 and 2004 when Weis left to coach Notre Dame, the Pats won 3 superbowls

 

There's a couple factors that go into my 50-50 guess though.  First off, there has to be enough similarity of thinking that the boss trusts things can be changed to go the way the boss wants them.  If there's a difference of philosophy that's sufficiently fundamental, this may not be able to happen.  The second is, the boss has to be able to rely on his subordinant's judgement.  If it's true that Dennison wanted to start Peterman and he talked McDermott into it, his player personnel judgement may be fatally flawed.

 

Not to be overlooked: that decision did kind of make McDermott look like a fool on a national stage.  "Don't piss in your boss's wheaties; don't make your boss look bad".

 

So I see it as a possibility, but not a certainty, and absolutely not because Dennison didn't adapt his scheme to Taylor or because McDermott wants to upgrade.  If it happens, it will be some combination of McDermott losing faith in Dennison's player personnel judgement and deciding his philosophy is too different to be able make desired changes.

 

 

This is correct.   McD has to have lost faith in Dennison.  

 

Would I be unhappy to see Dennison go?   No, because that would mean that McD has concluded the guy can't do the job and needs someone better.   I just doubt that McD missed his mark that badly when he hired the guy.  

 

Plus, there's a lot to be said about continuity.   Let the oline play the same blocking schemes for a second season.  Let the receivers work within the system they learned this year.   Let Tyrod, if somehow he turns out to be the guy, have a second season in the system.   

 

One reason Belichick has succeeded is that he's run the same offense and the same defense since he's been there.   There's great carryover from year to year.

[PolishDave]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

So he never called plays.   That means you're ready to give up him - you don't think he can't improve at that job in his second season?

 

Bad at his job?   Nobody here knows if he was good at his job or bad at his job.   His job entails a lot of different things, most of which none of us ever sees.   All we know is that the offense wasn't good this year, but there can be multiple reasons for that.   McDermott is the only person really in position to know whether Dennison was good at his job and whether Dennison is capable of developing a consistently good offense. 

 

McDermott PREFERRED some other guys?   How in the world do you know that?   DId I miss the press conference where McD announced his top five candidates for the job?   Now, for the sake of argument, if it's true that he preferred some other guys, I'll agree with you - McD should at least consider making a change.   It would depend on how much better some other guy would be, in McD's opinion.   But McD has to have at least some second thoughts about these guys you think he preferred, because if they're now available they've lost their previous jobs, so exactly how good are these guys he preferred?

 

My real bottom line is that McDermott believes in the process, and the process is teaching and development.   He fully understood that all that he's doing wouldn't take hold in the first season, that he will learn and grow from season one to season two, and his coaches and players will, too.   If they aren't learning and growing, they'll go.   I also think he's loyal; he expects his players to commit to one another, and I think he expects his coaches to commit to one another.   He holds himself to that standard.   So I don't see him pulling the plug on Dennison after a year because Dennison's learning process hasn't run it's course.   McD believes, I'm sure, that it's his job to work with Dennison, tell him what he liked and didn't like and then work on improvements.   The only way, in my mind, the McD cuts Dennison loose is if the guy was a total disappointment, couldn't do anything, bucked the system and was difficult to work with.  I seriously doubt that's McD's view of year one. 

 

What are you talking about dude?   His job is to run a highly productive offense that scores points and moves the chains.

 

His finished product sucked.    Like super sucked.   It was absolutely abysmal.

 

Coming into the season the Bills had one of the most dominant running games in NFL history.     It's not in the same ballpark anymore.

 

Coming into the season we expected there was nothing  but upside for the passing game because it was so lackluster last year.    And it got even worse.

 

The guy failed at his primary job responsibility.    Flat out failed.

[Zqueezr]

7 hours ago, K-GunJimKelly12 said:

The fact that they haven't fired him yet shows you nothing has changed and the end of the drought is just the beginning of a longer, more miserable drought.  If Pegula stands by and watches McBeane run this team into the ground then he might as well sell the team.  If Dennison isn't gone by the end of the day, then Pegula needs to do what is necessary and fire Dennison himself as well as Beane and McDermotte.  If McDermotte wants to keep his best buddies on as coaches despite them not being qualified then he needs to go.  Tell Russ to get out his files, the new GM/Coach search begins tomorrow. 

 

 

Maybe the OC’s available so far don’t have that “dna” ..you know.. the Process?

[Albwan]

So is the basic premise here that the oc is the problem with the  offense?

Hasn't everyone seen all the photographic evidence of all the wide open

receivers missed?  Really, that's all on the oc?

Wow.

At this point i'm incredulous, all i can do is shake my head at all of this.

[Shaw66]

58 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 

What are you talking about dude?   His job is to run a highly productive offense that scores points and moves the chains.

 

His finished product sucked.    Like super sucked.   It was absolutely abysmal.

 

Coming into the season the Bills had one of the most dominant running games in NFL history.     It's not in the same ballpark anymore.

 

Coming into the season we expected there was nothing  but upside for the passing game because it was so lackluster last year.    And it got even worse.

 

The guy failed at his primary job responsibility.    Flat out failed.

By that measure the OC's of the bottom 10 offenses should be fired each year.   That's flat out bad management, and any manager of a pro football team or a Fortune 500 complany will tell you that.  

35 minutes ago, Albwan said:

So is the basic premise here that the oc is the problem with the  offense?

Hasn't everyone seen all the photographic evidence of all the wide open

receivers missed?  Really, that's all on the oc?

Wow.

At this point i'm incredulous, all i can do is shake my head at all of this.

May very well be on the OC.   It's bad coaching to ask your players to do what they can't do.   If Tyrod couldn't find the open receivers, it could mean the coaching was bad.   

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

So he never called plays.   That means you're ready to give up him - you don't think he can't improve at that job in his second season?

 

Bad at his job?   Nobody here knows if he was good at his job or bad at his job.   His job entails a lot of different things, most of which none of us ever sees.   All we know is that the offense wasn't good this year, but there can be multiple reasons for that.   McDermott is the only person really in position to know whether Dennison was good at his job and whether Dennison is capable of developing a consistently good offense. 

 

McDermott PREFERRED some other guys?   How in the world do you know that?   DId I miss the press conference where McD announced his top five candidates for the job?   Now, for the sake of argument, if it's true that he preferred some other guys, I'll agree with you - McD should at least consider making a change.   It would depend on how much better some other guy would be, in McD's opinion.   But McD has to have at least some second thoughts about these guys you think he preferred, because if they're now available they've lost their previous jobs, so exactly how good are these guys he preferred?

 

My real bottom line is that McDermott believes in the process, and the process is teaching and development.   He fully understood that all that he's doing wouldn't take hold in the first season, that he will learn and grow from season one to season two, and his coaches and players will, too.   If they aren't learning and growing, they'll go.   I also think he's loyal; he expects his players to commit to one another, and I think he expects his coaches to commit to one another.   He holds himself to that standard.   So I don't see him pulling the plug on Dennison after a year because Dennison's learning process hasn't run it's course.   McD believes, I'm sure, that it's his job to work with Dennison, tell him what he liked and didn't like and then work on improvements.   The only way, in my mind, the McD cuts Dennison loose is if the guy was a total disappointment, couldn't do anything, bucked the system and was difficult to work with.  I seriously doubt that's McD's view of year one.

No he didn’t call plays until this year. He was terrible at it. On one of the biggest drives of the year he went screen to Dimarco, dive to Tolbert, slant to Tolbert lines up wide. That could go down as the worst series ever called!!

 

We agree that there are multiple reasons. The receivers were new but most of the offense was the same. They got worse throwing, running, blocking, with turnovers and in the red zone. He took over and literally everything got worse.

 

It was WIDELY reported that McCoy was his first choice. In fact, I think that we offered him but he chose to go back to Denver because his family liked it there. So yeah, I guess that you did miss that.

 

The thing that we disagree on the most is that McDermott has no problem pulling the plug. He pulled it on Dareus, Sammy, Darby, Tyrod, etc... He knows that the offense was bad and the guy leading it has to be accountable.

42 minutes ago, Albwan said:

So is the basic premise here that the oc is the problem with the  offense?

Hasn't everyone seen all the photographic evidence of all the wide open

receivers missed?  Really, that's all on the oc?

Wow.

At this point i'm incredulous, all i can do is shake my head at all of this.

What did he do well? Why did the offense get worse in all facets this year? They literally are worse at everything.

[dave mcbride]

People are really defending Dennison? All you have to look at it is the second half performances. That's when a team has figured out what you're doing, and it's upon you to adjust. He stinks and is thoroughly uncreative. Yes, I realize that working with Tyrod Taylor was likely not an ideal qb for him (to say the least), but 3 points in the 4th quarter in the final seven games?? Come on. They ran the same plays they ran earlier in the game repeatedly in second halves throughout the season.