Fixing the pass rush

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

I don't believe that to be entirely true. When he was DC in Carolina they got after the QB like crazy. They also had Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, etc... He was also fortunate enough to have Josh Norman. I look at it like this.... He and Frazier did a HELL of a job getting this secondary to cover for the D-line.

 

That's why I think getting to the QB is the main thing they try to address in the offseason for the defense.

Just imagine what this secondary could do if they had a pass rush and the QB has to get rid of the ball much more quickly.

[Starr Almighty]

6 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I don't think there is any way this regime considers him. Good player though. 

I agree. That's why I said "I'd like" ? ??

[mjt328]

Our pass rush is missing a few important items.

 

1.  Jerry Hughes is our only good edge rusher, so he constantly faces double-teams.  Shaq Lawson seems good at setting the edge and containing runs, but he doesn't get near enough pressure on the QB.  Hopefully he improves in this area next season, or the "bust" word will start hovering around him quite a bit.  If he doesn't improve, we may be able to get by with a rush specialist on passing downs (maybe shifting Lorenzo Alexander back to the D-Line).

 

2.  Kyle Williams is our only tackle that pushes the pocket, and his play seemed to trail off as the season went along.  At 34, it's fair to wonder if his best days are behind him.  At the very least, we need another DT that can regularly command double-teams.  In a division with Tom Brady, it would be really nice to have two guys that can push the pocket and command double-teams (like we used to have with Williams and Marcel Dareus).

 

3.  Our linebackers are totally outmatched and a poor fit for this defense.  They don't cover well, which makes it easier for QBs to get rid of the ball fast to underneath routes.  They don't seem to blitz well, which hurts their ability to directly affect the pass rush. 

 

 

Outside of quarterback, I think that DT is our biggest need.  I would like to see us make that position our #1 priority in free agency.  And unless we use both picks to trade up, I'm hoping a good one falls to one of our 1st Rounders.  Hopefully Kyle Williams comes back, and we can make him a rotational player with two other studs on the line.  That would be a fantastic first step.

We also need to address linebacker.  Really bad.  I'm liking Matt Milano.  But I have no interest in re-signing Preston Brown or Ramon Humber.  Linebacker was very important in Sean McDermott's Carolina defenses, but was our weakest position this year.

Instead of drafting another defensive end high, I would probably make Alexander our pass rush specialist and hope that Lawson develops more in the offseason.

 

[Maine-iac]

18 minutes ago, CLTbills said:

I don't believe that to be entirely true. When he was DC in Carolina they got after the QB like crazy. They also had Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, etc... He was also fortunate enough to have Josh Norman. I look at it like this.... He and Frazier did a HELL of a job getting this secondary to cover for the D-line.

Read everything I said again.  I never said anything about not wanting to get after the QB.  I simply don't think McDermott is a high rolling, gamble and blitz everyone type of coach.  He's going to play coverage and he's good at that.  That said when you have good coverage you can get sacks.  We should have had 3 or 4 Sunday.  We need a disruptive DT to go along with and/or replace Kyle.  Lawson isn't a big time pass rusher but would certainly benefit from that.  Hughes is the one who you'd think would be quickest around the edge but Bortles was easily outrunning him.  Kind of surprising.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Read everything I said again.  I never said anything about not wanting to get after the QB.  I simply don't think McDermott is a high rolling, gamble and blitz everyone type of coach.  He's going to play coverage and he's good at that.  That said when you have good coverage you can get sacks.  We should have had 3 or 4 Sunday.  We need a disruptive DT to go along with and/or replace Kyle.  Lawson isn't a big time pass rusher but would certainly benefit from that.  Hughes is the one who you'd think would be quickest around the edge but Bortles was easily outrunning him.  Kind of surprising.

 

Hes not a blitzer which is why is very important to get to the QB with just the front 4....just like in Carolina.  

 

Bortles wasn’t outrunning Hughes.

Quickness around the edge and scrambling outside of the pocket are much different.  Hughes momentum is going a different direction.

[Maine-iac]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Hes not a blitzer which is why is very important to get to the QB with just the front 4....just like in Carolina.  

 

Bortles wasn’t outrunning Hughes.

Quickness around the edge and scrambling outside of the pocket are much different.  Hughes momentum is going a different direction.

Yes and no. Some plays Hughes ran by Bortles and some plays Bortles ran away from Hughes.  Especially in the second half. 

[boyst]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I didn’t see a topic on it and think that it is a huge need. The secondary is AMAZING imo. What they did with little pass rush was incredible. If they had a rush in front of them I believe that the turnovers would rise and it would provide some relief to the run defense. You need to get teams behind the markers some. With that being said what are your solutions to addressing it this offseason?

My biggest concern is lack of size. We run nickel and dime but don't have a big safety like we want. Colt Anderson can bring the wood but id like a big safety the size of Chancellor to stay in as a 3rd safety to cover over the middle. Poyer and Hyde don't need to lay all the hits on.

 

If I am McBeane I seek out a big safety and try him out in camp and see if he can bring it.

 

 

Those are my .02¢ besides the obvious. Linebacker coverage helps pass rush, Hughes Is an issue but Lawson hurt him when he went down, need a butt plugger to run up the middle.  Preston Brown is not terrible but let him go if he asks too much. I miss Poz.

[bdutton]

If we lose Kyle to retirement we need to get a replacement in the draft.  Low first or high second round.  Pick up someone in FA to be an upgrade over Washington.

[boyst]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Not sure he really blitzed more. I think great coverage by linebackers helped those guys get to the quarterback. I also think dominate tackles helped to bring pressure up the middle. 

 

I'd probably go after Kony Ealy and draft a guy like Sam Hubbard. 

Ealy is Shaq Lawson light. Lawson is Chris Kelsey light with greater potential.

 

For a cheap contract and if a spot is available I'd give Ealy a shot.

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

He is but he frees up the other DT.  I don't know Carolina very well but apparently Short's production is helped a lot by Star.

 

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/2017/08/28/carolina-panthers-star-lotulelei/

 

 

Yes. Short benefits the same way that the no name DT did a few yrs ago who got about 7 sacks did.

 

Short is valuable to the team because he doesn't mess up much and because of that he capitalizes on opportunities. 

 

He is the epitome of a high motor guy and moves well and smart enough to give him a chance as he plays.

7 minutes ago, bdutton said:

If we lose Kyle to retirement we need to get a replacement in the draft.  Low first or high second round.  Pick up someone in FA to be an upgrade over Washington.

Even if we don't we need a replacement plan now. He disappeared a few times. 

[bdutton]

10 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Even if we don't we need a replacement plan now. He disappeared a few times. 

Agreed.  Seemed like when we traded Dareus it took a few weeks before the defense was able to recover from his loss.  We definately need to pick up someone in the draft and free agency this year to bolster the D line.

[mjt328]

16 minutes ago, bdutton said:

If we lose Kyle to retirement we need to get a replacement in the draft.  Low first or high second round.  Pick up someone in FA to be an upgrade over Washington.

 

Kyle's biggest value right now is locker room leadership.

 

On the field, I think he's become more of a rotational player.

[CountDorkula]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I didn’t see a topic on it and think that it is a huge need. The secondary is AMAZING imo. What they did with little pass rush was incredible. If they had a rush in front of them I believe that the turnovers would rise and it would provide some relief to the run defense. You need to get teams behind the markers some. With that being said what are your solutions to addressing it this offseason?

Sign Star Loutoulelei(Sp?) and Sheldon Richardson for the middle.

 

That fixes the interior defense which should help teh pass rush from edge rushers and LB's 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Second biggest need on the team after Quarterback for me.  If I am able to stand pat at 21 and get my QB then I am taking a D-lineman with 22.  Either an interior penetrating DT or a defensive end who is a pass rusher first and foremost.  I'm willing to take a guy who might still need some work on lane discipline in the run game in order to get extra pressure on QBs.  With another 3 or 4 pressures a game (that is all we are talking) this defense goes from situationally good to genuinely top 10 calibre because those extra 3 or 4 incompletions get teams off the field and force more turnovers and short field.  

 

Yep.

 

QB's and guys who hit QB's.

 

Now that so much of the violence has been legislated out of the game(in fairness, it had to be) I derive the most joy from pass rush and the big passing plays.   And probably in that order if I am being honest.

 

I miss the days when you could go into free agency and pluck a cheap but effective 0 or 1 tech who could actually disengage from a block and tackle a RB so you could invest in pass rush.   That price tag went from $4M to closer to $10M overnight.  

 

Gotta' invest in pass rushers but also gotta' try to find some cheap.    I am guessing that McD is really sour on Kony Ealy but he has special pass rush potential.  Played out of position at OLB with NYJ but earned good marks for his attitude and effort which perhaps is a start.    I know........I am absolutely desperate for pass rush help.   

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Gotta' invest in pass rushers but also gotta' try to find some cheap.    I am guessing that McD is really sour on Kony Ealy but he has special pass rush potential.  Played out of position at OLB with NYJ but earned good marks for his attitude and effort which perhaps is a start.    I know........I am absolutely desperate for pass rush help.   

 

You have always been a sucker for Kony Ealy Badol.... it is one of the strangest player crushes I know of  

 

They do need to find some cheap help though... either at DE or DT they need to unearth a FA bargain.  

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Second biggest need on the team after Quarterback for me.  If I am able to stand pat at 21 and get my QB then I am taking a D-lineman with 22.  Either an interior penetrating DT or a defensive end who is a pass rusher first and foremost.  I'm willing to take a guy who might still need some work on lane discipline in the run game in order to get extra pressure on QBs.  With another 3 or 4 pressures a game (that is all we are talking) this defense goes from situationally good to genuinely top 10 calibre because those extra 3 or 4 incompletions get teams off the field and force more turnovers and short field.  

http://www.totalprosports.com/2018/01/08/alabama-300lb-dt-daron-payne-went-sky-high-to-jump-on-this-pile-for-a-tackle-video/

 

This dude looked pretty good the other night!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I didn’t see a topic on it and think that it is a huge need. The secondary is AMAZING imo. What they did with little pass rush was incredible. If they had a rush in front of them I believe that the turnovers would rise and it would provide some relief to the run defense. You need to get teams behind the markers some. With that being said what are your solutions to addressing it this offseason?

 

 

...this gang preserves draft capital.....may, MAY spend a 2nd or 3rd to grab Alex Smith as their vet presence........a 1st goes to pick up Rudolph....after that, draft capital is on DL/OL or OL/DL depending on your perspective, BOTH areas of need..............

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...this gang preserves draft capital.....may, MAY spend a 2nd or 3rd to grab Alex Smith as their vet presence........a 1st goes to pick up Rudolph....after that, draft capital is on DL/OL or OL/DL depending on your perspective, BOTH areas of need..............

I can’t see how anyone can say the OL and DL are similar as needs. The OL may very well return all 5 starters plus Groy/Glenn. Some could change I guess. The DL dumped one starter mid-season, another is in his 15th year, a 3rd had a season ending surgery and the 4th may be a cap casualty. That to go along with the fact that they were one of the worst run defense in the league and bottom 5 in sacks. The DL is a WAY bigger need than OL. The OL could be fixed by just hiring a new coach. 

[dave mcbride]

9 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

I'm going to sound like a lunatic here so I'll put on my flame suit and begin.  I think McDermott plays a coverage defense.  To say he plays a defense that doesn't need a great pass rush would sound stupid I imagine but it's true.  Now that is out of the way I can say who wouldn't want a better pass rush?  I think we missed Dareous and I think a good defensive tackle will help the pass rush more than a pass rushing end.  We need someone who can penetrate and/or collapse the pocket and chase the QB's out to the DE's.

The Panthers' D had 60 sacks in 2013.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

I can’t see how anyone can say the OL and DL are similar as needs. The OL may very well return all 5 starters plus Groy/Glenn. Some could change I guess. The DL dumped one starter mid-season, another is in his 15th year, a 3rd had a season ending surgery and the 4th may be a cap casualty. That to go along with the fact that they were one of the worst run defense in the league and bottom 5 in sacks. The DL is a WAY bigger need than OL. The OL could be fixed by just hiring a new coach. 

 

...where the hell did I say one was a priority over the other?..... to quote my post, "after that, draft capital is on DL/OL or OL/DL depending on your perspective, BOTH areas of need."......

[Maine-iac]

4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The Panthers' D had 60 sacks in 2013.

About the third person to either not read everything I said or take it the wrong way.  I even re-explained it 8 hours ago in this thread.

 

8 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

Read everything I said again.  I never said anything about not wanting to get after the QB.  I simply don't think McDermott is a high rolling, gamble and blitz everyone type of coach.  He's going to play coverage and he's good at that.  That said when you have good coverage you can get sacks.  We should have had 3 or 4 Sunday.  We need a disruptive DT to go along with and/or replace Kyle.  Lawson isn't a big time pass rusher but would certainly benefit from that.  Hughes is the one who you'd think would be quickest around the edge but Bortles was easily outrunning him.  Kind of surprising.