The reasons why the Bills will not change O Coordinator in offseason - Per WGR on-air discussion

[reddogblitz]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

And you're overlooking the obvious about Brady. He's had mediocre to poor WR groups most of his career. He made them great. Granted, he's Tom Brady and not all QBs will do that for poorish WR groups. But you're the one who brought up Brady.

 

Yes and no.  He's had Deon Branch, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Amendola,  Brandon Cooks (1st round trade for), Gronkowski (although technically a TE, he lines up as a WR a lot), Hernandez, Ben Coates, Julian Edelman, and Ben Watson.

 

It's not like he's throwing to Brad Smith and Zay Jones up there.  And Bill Bellyache is on record saying if you can't catch the football you're out.  How long did Donald Jones last up there?

 

And yes, Kelvin is a legit #1 WR.  But after that ...

Edited January 10, 2018 by reddogblitz

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Yes and no.  He's had Deon Branch, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Amendola,  Brandon Cooks (1st round trade for), Gronkowski (although technically a TE, he lines up as a WR a lot), Hernandez, Ben Coates, Julian Edelman, and Ben Watson.

 

It's not like he's throwing to Brad Smith and Zay Jones up there.  And Bill Bellyache is on record saying if you can't catch the football you're out.  How long did Donald Jones last up there?

 

And yes, Kelvin is a legit #1 WR.  But after that ...

 

 

 

After that ... Zay Jones will be a second-year guy. He could easily improve. It wouldn't be all that difficult to bring Matthews back or to bring in another guy like him as a free agent. Clay should be back and whoever's next will probably have the good luck to be throwing to Shady as well. Once you've got your #1 guy, it's a lot easier to get by with complementary guys.

 

As for your Pats remarks, how did Deion Branch do after he left New England. Ben Watson? Ben Coates? Amendola's never managed 700 yards in a season, not in his whole career.

 

As for Gronk and Hernandez and Coates and Watson, I said WR. It ain't a mistake that when you tried so hard to find good pass catchers in NE, you ended up with a lot of TEs. And by the way, before he came to Buffalo, Clay was considered one of the best receiving TEs in the league. Then he got here and played with Tyrod and disappeared.

 

Agree with Randy Moss and Cooks, but how many years of Brady's career did he have those two. Edelman? Yeah, maybe, but I'd like to see him on another team before I committed. He's a guy who just fits the system up there.

 

The point stands. You brought up Brady as having good WRs, and in fact, through most of his career, he hasn't had very impressive WR groups at all.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

21 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually last year we had a pretty good WR corps.  Dennison/McBeane blew it up.  Maybe for the best in the long run - time will tell - but the fact is what they brought in contributed way less than what they gave up.

 

We did? And they did? Woods left in FA. Watkins hardly played last year.

[BigBuff423]

21 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

Discussion on WGR arctually points to some valid reasons why a new OC is unlikely this offseason.  The primary points are:

 

• The QB situation is a complete unknown.  There is no guarantee the Bills land a top FA or a top prospect in the draft
• No OC worth their salt is going to come to a team with the QB position that is that undetermined and cloudy
• The Bills can’t tip their hand on offensive and draft strategies to outside OC candidates.  They will not be able to say either way that they will aggressively pursue a QB either through FA or the draft. Even if they do, the Bills fate probably involves a willing partner in the situation.
•  The WR corps is a mess.  So not only does the OC need to fix the QB role he would have to rebuild the WR position
• Shady is getting old by NFL RB standards as are Incognito and Woods.  No guarantee that the ground game remains solid in Buffalo.  
• McDermott is not a high profile coach who will “lift” the career of an OC that has his sights on a HC job
• The Bills have talent gaps on both sides of the ball.  Which do they give priority to?  No OC will want to come in if the Bills state that their priority is to first address the gaps on the D side of the ball.

 

The more I think about the above the more it would seem that the Bills have a very weak hand when it comes to the idea of brining in a “known” entity at OC.  Maybe some “up and comer” takes a flier but even that seems unlikely given there are not a lot of tools in the toolbox to work with.

 

Thoughts?

 

To me, and I supposed this is the optimist in me (hard to believe I know given I'm a Bills fan), sees some of these points quite differently while statements remaining true. For example, the QB situation being unknown - yes, that can cause an OC to be apprehensive, and those coordinators the Bills should NOT want...but an OC could also see the unknown as a great way to help put their stamp on the Offense to recruit via FA or have in-put toward the Draft, getting "their" guy so to speak...

 

Second, many OCs went into a situation with the QB position unsteady or "undetermined" and helped stabilize the position and built their reputation on it, so again I see that as a challenge to the OC to come in and contribute and help make their mark

 

Third, any OC that is interviewing for that position I would assume knows that no trade secrets could be revealed until hired, but isn't that true of all hires in the NFL? You don't get to peak at the goods until you're in the building, so that doesn't feel unique to me. Also, it's just as easy - I suspect true - that Beane and McD could tell the potential OC, "We have a plan, identified targets and the ability to acquire them, but we're waiting on our OC to come to our team".....

 

WR corps is a mess....no doubt, but again, Zay was a Rookie, Kelvin was injured, and based merely on numbers, the Bills will need to get at least two FA WRs in the building and if the OC has an interest in being apart of this total rebuild, he would WANT to have some say about the WRs that fit his system.

 

I've made a number of posts in other threads that I think Shady is traded based on age and contract that coupled together helps this team much more in the long run and he has been their best Offensive player since he came to the Bills and a great teammate - no complaints. But as McD said at his presser yesterday, decisions about the team need to be "emotionless". As for Wood and Incognito, I think Incognito is also a goner but for Wood - I'd love the Bills to go and get Bodine in FA, but given Wood was just granted an extension, again unless it's a trade, I think he stays....for now.

 

McD is not an established Coach, but considering what he's done in his first year, how could any OC who truly wants to be apart of something special NOT want to be part of this team???

 

Yes, both sides have gaps - but as Beane mentioned in presser they're not satisfied with the Offense as a whole and given the FA money without trades, and probably some trades do happen, and the Draft capital, they can make quite a bit of moves to improve BOTH sides of the ball.....

 

 

All JMO..

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

Counter-argument: Pegula bucks

 

Any of those concerns will be more than smoothed over by giving this potential OC a little extra $$

[BillsFan130]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

 

There's no particular reason to think that McVay fixed Goff. Goff went from rookie to 2nd year guy. He probably would have taken a huge step forward under any OC. McVay I'm sure helped Goff, but very likely one of the main reasons McVay picked that team is because he thought Goff had done pretty well for a rookie and had a ton of potential. 

 

Goff simply looked calmer in the pocket this year from minute number one. That's not McVay, it's just being a guy who has had the game slow down for him. Not saying McVay did nothing. But many here want to say that McVay is the only reason Goff got better and that simply makes no sense.

 

 

 

I think there are many reasons to say Mcvay fixed Goff

 

1. Goff was horrendous last year, and people were already calling him a bust

2. Mcvay is a quarterback wizard. (Just look at what Cousins said about Mcvay as well)

3. Mcvay calls the plays at the line for Goff. He scans the defence and tells Goff what correct play to call before the head set shuts off

4. He helped bring in playmakers for Goff as well

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

I think there are many reasons to say Mcvay fixed Goff

 

1. Goff was horrendous last year, and people were already calling him a bust

2. Mcvay is a quarterback wizard. (Just look at what Cousins said about Mcvay as well)

3. Mcvay calls the plays at the line for Goff. He scans the defence and tells Goff what correct play to call before the head set shuts off

4. He helped bring in playmakers for Goff as well

 

 

Those aren't reasons to say McVay fixed Goff. They are reasons to say he helped Goff, which makes sense.

 

What also makes sense is to point out that Goff's improvement absolutely helped McVay. 

 

And Cousins is a good example of why QB development is huge. In McVay's first year as Cousins' OC, Cousins wasn't all that impressive. 10 TDs and 9 INTs and an 86.4 QB rating. Then the next year, Cousins' light  came on and he got a ton better. Did McVay help? Sure. Was Cousins' growth as a simple factor of time in the league and time on the field also a huge part of it and probably the largest part? Yeah, absolutely. If it was McVay, Cousins would have gotten better in McVay's first year, not his second.

 

Many rookie QBs are absolutely awful and then take major steps upwards in their second year. Breaking news: many of those QBs do not have McVay as their coach.

 

[reddogblitz]

16 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

Counter-argument: Pegula bucks

 

Any of those concerns will be more than smoothed over by giving this potential OC a little extra $$

 

All the other owners don't have BIG BUCKS too?

[reddogblitz]

18 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

After that ... Zay Jones will be a second-year guy. He could easily improve. It wouldn't be all that difficult to bring Matthews back or to bring in another guy like him as a free agent. Clay should be back and whoever's next will probably have the good luck to be throwing to Shady as well. Once you've got your #1 guy, it's a lot easier to get by with complementary guys.

 

As for your Pats remarks, how did Deion Branch do after he left New England. Ben Watson? Ben Coates? Amendola's never managed 700 yards in a season, not in his whole career.

 

As for Gronk and Hernandez and Coates and Watson, I said WR. It ain't a mistake that when you tried so hard to find good pass catchers in NE, you ended up with a lot of TEs. And by the way, before he came to Buffalo, Clay was considered one of the best receiving TEs in the league. Then he got here and played with Tyrod and disappeared.

 

Agree with Randy Moss and Cooks, but how many years of Brady's career did he have those two. Edelman? Yeah, maybe, but I'd like to see him on another team before I committed. He's a guy who just fits the system up there.

 

The point stands. You brought up Brady as having good WRs, and in fact, through most of his career, he hasn't had very impressive WR groups at all.

 

People leaving the Patsies** and never doing anything after is very common occurrence.  With all the shenanigans they got going on up there with deflated footballs and spy cameras and alleged locker room tampering and Flutie's radio helmet still working after 15 seconds on the play clock and whatever Ernie Adams does, I don't know.  

 

Matt Cassel looked like Tom Brady leading the Patises** to a 10-5 record, but he was pedestrian elsewhere.  Why is that?  coaches leave there frequently and quickly flame out.  O'Brien, Mangini, McDaniels, Charlie Weiss

 

You can use them as an example of having a good QB that doesn't need good WRs I guess, but there's a lot more going on there that also helps imho.

[Thurman#1]

40 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

People leaving the Patsies** and never doing anything after is very common occurrence.  With all the shenanigans they got going on up there with deflated footballs and spy cameras and alleged locker room tampering and Flutie's radio helmet still working after 15 seconds on the play clock and whatever Ernie Adams does, I don't know.  

 

Matt Cassel looked like Tom Brady leading the Patises** to a 10-5 record, but he was pedestrian elsewhere.  Why is that?  coaches leave there frequently and quickly flame out.  O'Brien, Mangini, McDaniels, Charlie Weiss

 

You can use them as an example of having a good QB that doesn't need good WRs I guess, but there's a lot more going on there that also helps imho.

 

 

Matt Cassel didn't look like Tom Brady that year, he just didn't. Go look at the stats.

 

He looked like what he was, a guy good enough to lead a team that had gone 16-0 the year before to an  11-5 record against a slate of opponents with a historically bad cumulative win-loss record. That was a terrifically easy schedule for the Pats that year.

 

Plenty of players have gone from the Pats to other teams to perform very well. Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Asante Samuel, Chandler Jones, Sheard, Jamie Collins, Revis for a year or two. Receivers not so much. Terry Glenn was good after but I can't think of a single other one of all the WRs who went elsewhere.

 

Brady IS a QB who has made average to poorish wide receiver groups to sensational success. Again, I'm not the one who brought up Brady. You did. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Thurman#1

[reddogblitz]

Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Matt Cassel didn't look like Tom Brady that year, he just didn't. Go look at the stats.

 

He looked like what he was, a guy good enough to lead a team that had gone 16-0 the year before to an  11-5 record against a slate of opponents with a historically bad cumulative win-loss record. That was a terrifically easy schedule for the Pats that year.

 

Brady IS a QB who has made average to poorish wide receiver groups to sensational success. Again, I'm not the one who brought up Brady. You did. 

 

Maybe.  Like I said, he's tainted. I can't take anything he does and think he's done it all on the up and up without advantages other QBs don't have, like deflated footballs and such.  Maybe you think he's on the up and up, but I and any accomplishment he gets has an asterisk next to it. But that's just me.

 

Can you think of any other QBs that can get it done with meager WRs?  Not Big Ben.  Not Mat Ryan.  Not Drew Brees. Not Cam Newton.  Not Andy Dalton. Not Jim Kelly. Not Kurt Warner.  Not Roger Staubach. Not Eli Manning. Not Peyton Manning. Not Terry Bradshaw.  Maybe Russell Wilson but I think his WRs are pretty darn good even if they're not big name guys.  

 

I'd say the same for Tommy's WRs.  They're not big name guys, but they sure look sure handed and effective when I watch them.  And why doesn't Gronk count. He lines up our wide like WR and they  use him like one. 

 

I remember one Super Bowl where his guys dropped some key balls and they lost and as Giselle pointed out, he can't throw them and catch them too.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Maybe.  Like I said, he's tainted. I can't take anything he does and think he's done it all on the up and up without advantages other QBs don't have, like deflated footballs and such.  Maybe you think he's on the up and up, but I and any accomplishment he gets has an asterisk next to it. But that's just me.

 

Can you think of any other QBs that can get it done with meager WRs?  Not Big Ben.  Not Mat Ryan.  Not Drew Brees. Not Cam Newton.  Not Andy Dalton. Not Jim Kelly. Not Kurt Warner.  Not Roger Staubach. Not Eli Manning. Not Peyton Manning. Not Terry Bradshaw.  Maybe Russell Wilson but I think his WRs are pretty darn good even if they're not big name guys.  

 

I'd say the same for Tommy's WRs.  They're not big name guys, but they sure look sure handed and effective when I watch them.  And why doesn't Gronk count. He lines up our wide like WR and they  use him like one. 

 

I remember one Super Bowl where his guys dropped some key balls and they lost and as Giselle pointed out, he can't throw them and catch them too.

 

 

I'm not gonna argue whether the Pats have cheated. I think they have.

 

But it's beside the point. Brady is truly great.

 

And i agree that Giselle might've been right that year. That was a year they made the Super Bowl.

 

And yeah, it's harder without great WRs. And most teams that win SBs are great teams, with great personnel guys, so they tend to have at least one good WR. But good QBs sometimes have some times without good WRs and many can do quite well. Look at Carson Palmer in 2009. He had Chad Johnson on the downslope and nobody else particularly good. Still played pretty well and got the Bengals to 10-6.

 

Look at Drew Brees. He's made decent WRs look good his whole career.

 

Look at Matt Stafford the year after Megatron left. And as you yourself said, Russell Wilson has done pretty well with pretty decent guys. 

 

Look at Flacco the year they won the SB. No receiver got more than 921 yards that year. Boldin was good but a possession receiver by that point, though I guess there's a good argument to be made for Boldin.

 

That's who I can come up with after a few minutes thought. I'm sure there are others.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Thurman#1

[BillsFan130]

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Those aren't reasons to say McVay fixed Goff. They are reasons to say he helped Goff, which makes sense.

 

What also makes sense is to point out that Goff's improvement absolutely helped McVay. 

 

And Cousins is a good example of why QB development is huge. In McVay's first year as Cousins' OC, Cousins wasn't all that impressive. 10 TDs and 9 INTs and an 86.4 QB rating. Then the next year, Cousins' light  came on and he got a ton better. Did McVay help? Sure. Was Cousins' growth as a simple factor of time in the league and time on the field also a huge part of it and probably the largest part? Yeah, absolutely. If it was McVay, Cousins would have gotten better in McVay's first year, not his second.

 

Many rookie QBs are absolutely awful and then take major steps upwards in their second year. Breaking news: many of those QBs do not have McVay as their coach.

 

It depends. Sometimes QBS will get better their 2nd year, and sometimes they will get worse. That's where the old term "sophomore slump" comes in to play a lot of the time.

 

I think you are down playing what Mcvay has done for Goff.

 

Question: Do you think Goff would have comparable numbers this year if Jeff Fisher was still their coach, instead of Mcvay?

 

[Buftex]

On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:39 AM, dpberr said:

There isn't a single OC out there that doesn't believe his own "magic" can work wherever he wants it to.

 

The WGR points are repudiated by fact in some ways.  Dennison came on board with the same eh QB issues, same ehh WR issues, same talent gaps, same older players and a complete unknown - at the time-  as a head coach.  

Fair points, but Dennison wasn't real hot commodity when we got him either.

[BillsFan130]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I'm not gonna argue whether the Pats have cheated. I think they have.

 

But it's beside the point. Brady is truly great.

 

And i agree that Giselle might've been right that year. That was a year they made the Super Bowl.

 

And yeah, it's harder without great WRs. And most teams that win SBs are great teams, with great personnel guys, so they tend to have at least one good WR. But good QBs sometimes have some times without good WRs and many can do quite well. Look at Carson Palmer in 2009. He had Chad Johnson on the downslope and nobody else particularly good. Still played pretty well and got the Bengals to 10-6.

 

Look at Drew Brees. He's made decent WRs look good his whole career.

 

Look at Matt Stafford the year after Megatron left. And as you yourself said, Russell Wilson has done pretty well with pretty decent guys. 

 

Look at Flacco the year they won the SB. No receiver got more than 921 yards that year. Boldin was good but a possession receiver by that point, though I guess there's a good argument to be made for Boldin.

 

That's who I can come up with after a few minutes thought. I'm sure there are others.

 

 

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/11/nfl-sean-mcvay-rams-saints-jared-goff-audibles

 

Here is a very good read how Mcvay is making Goff's job 10x easier opposed to last year

 

[twoandfourteen]

On 1/9/2018 at 9:37 AM, Boyst62 said:

They also talked about how easy it is to send him packing.

 

A new OC could come in and literally pick his QB at will between a rookie or vet.

 

As of now I'm good with the first 5 picks being skill positions on offense. And go after Lotoluiiluollleee from Carolina along with a few other vets on defense. We need speed. Going back to Atlanta - you just can see we sucked at LB then. Alexadner is overrsted. Humber was meh. Milano is a backup. 

 

And we ride with Taylor and a rookie in 18. 

 

No thanks.

[Da webster guy]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:04 AM, fridge said:

It's difficult to properly assess this OC because he had Taylor at QB. Each week he was bringing a knife to a gun fight and some weeks we pulled it off.

 

I have no opinion of Dennison at the moment and would like to see how the offense ticks with a QB that hits receivers in stride, throws an accurate deep ball, and challenges the defense with pre-snap reads.

 

 

true.    hard to formulate an opinion on an OC when he didn't really have the tools to run a good offense.   

also there's value in consistency on offense, keeping the same system into a second year would help new guys like Deonte, Cadet, Dawkins, Peterman etc.   Tasker said that the other day, it's a big advantage if you don't have to switch coordinators, which never occurred to me. 

Rico and McD just had their first season as HC and game callers, they learned a lot I'm sure. 

[grb]

On 1/9/2018 at 10:56 AM, xRUSHx said:

IMO keeping Tyrod is not helping anything. His contract is too big for his not good enough play, having our OC use two schemes for his QBs since Taylor needs the short bus scheme. He is not a mentor look how bad Peterman looked I am sure Taylor pushed his team mates to play horribly in LA to help keep Tyrod as the starter for the rest of the year. Keeping Tyrod would have our rookie in a hole the entire time because of fans and Tyrod friends on the team that will push him to be the starter. They need to move on If they want to get better at the position, use his money for other positions. If this staff wants a Mario W type of locker room cancer keeping him is the right choice IMO.

 

Wow! 

Just, wow.......

Methinks hate has addled this poor boy's brain.

[Commish]

On 1/9/2018 at 9:25 AM, BuffaloBill said:

Discussion on WGR arctually points to some valid reasons why a new OC is unlikely this offseason.  The primary points are:

 

• The QB situation is a complete unknown.  There is no guarantee the Bills land a top FA or a top prospect in the draft
• No OC worth their salt is going to come to a team with the QB position that is that undetermined and cloudy
• The Bills can’t tip their hand on offensive and draft strategies to outside OC candidates.  They will not be able to say either way that they will aggressively pursue a QB either through FA or the draft. Even if they do, the Bills fate probably involves a willing partner in the situation.
•  The WR corps is a mess.  So not only does the OC need to fix the QB role he would have to rebuild the WR position
• Shady is getting old by NFL RB standards as are Incognito and Woods.  No guarantee that the ground game remains solid in Buffalo.  
• McDermott is not a high profile coach who will “lift” the career of an OC that has his sights on a HC job
• The Bills have talent gaps on both sides of the ball.  Which do they give priority to?  No OC will want to come in if the Bills state that their priority is to first address the gaps on the D side of the ball.

 

The more I think about the above the more it would seem that the Bills have a very weak hand when it comes to the idea of brining in a “known” entity at OC.  Maybe some “up and comer” takes a flier but even that seems unlikely given there are not a lot of tools in the toolbox to work with.

 

Thoughts?

My thoughts are: I gues WGR is wrong...

[1st&ten]

WGR should have checked with Dunkirk Don.