Kelly the Dog Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: The play to Thompson was like a 4 yard gain. Don't get me wrong, I won't blame the coaches for that. A completion at worst keeps the clock running even though it's kind of a bizarre choice if you're trying to drive down the field quickly. The worst for me was the 3rd down call. The receiver (Zay) is running his route out of bounds short of the sticks. That's absolutely the worst decision. If you want to call a pass, it has to be to a route that stays in bounds. That showed Dennison or McDermott had no understanding of the game situation. Watching that play I blamed it 100% on Zay running a 100% crappy pattern, which he has been doing all season. Neither he nor Thompson are halfway good at common NFL caliber sideline abilities. Zay rounded off his route pretty lazy, then didn't go to the first down marker. It was a pretty easy play IMO.
Alaska Darin Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: The play to Thompson was like a 4 yard gain. Don't get me wrong, I won't blame the coaches for that. A completion at worst keeps the clock running even though it's kind of a bizarre choice if you're trying to drive down the field quickly. The worst for me was the 3rd down call. The receiver (Zay) is running his route out of bounds short of the sticks. That's absolutely the worst decision. If you want to call a pass, it has to be to a route that stays in bounds. That showed Dennison or McDermott had no understanding of the game situation. It was second and 6, so even if it was 4 yards it makes it third and manageable. I have no issue with the call. The 3rd down route drove me nuts. Run the damn route past the sticks and get the first down or just run the ball and eat the clock/force a timeout. The Patriots have been winning Championship after Championship because they play smart, situational football year after year and almost never beat themselves. We're exactly the opposite. 1 minute ago, Kelly the Dog said: Watching that play I blamed it 100% on Zay running a 100% crappy pattern, which he has been doing all season. Neither he nor Thompson are halfway good at common NFL caliber sideline abilities. Zay rounded off his route pretty lazy, then didn't go to the first down marker. It was a pretty easy play IMO. Thompson had a brutal game yesterday. He was terrible. The interception on the final offensive play was entirely his fault, for pretty much the same reason. Come back to the damn ball and stay between your QB and the defender. It's literally WR 101.
K-9 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, SensiBILL said: Wait, you can agree with him that the Bills should have ran it from the 10 to use time but not to run from the one? Don't you see the inconsistency of your logic. If the Bills ran it from the one they either score or use time, passing doesn't accomplish that. It was a terrible, terrible call, highlighted because several of the things that could go wrong did. There is no inconsistency at all. It is apples and oranges in terms of game situations.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: It was second and 6, so even if it was 4 yards it makes it third and manageable. I have no issue with the call. The 3rd down route drove me nuts. Run the damn route past the sticks and get the first down or just run the ball and eat the clock/force a timeout. The Patriots have been winning Championship after Championship because they play smart, situational football year after year and almost never beat themselves. We're exactly the opposite. Thompson had a brutal game yesterday. He was terrible. The interception on the final offensive play was entirely his fault, for pretty much the same reason. Come back to the damn ball and stay between your QB and the defender. It's literally WR 101. Neither Zay nor Thompson track the ball in the air on deep passes well either. They both totally suck at it, at least in this stage of their careers. I didn't get a 100% sure look at it but it looked to me like Thompson didn't track it on the deep ball to him earlier in the game that looked overthrown. There were 5-10 of those this season just from those two guys, including the potential game winner against the Panthers. Tyrod is lousy at times, way too much to be tolerable. But his line sucks, his receivers suck and his coaching suck. 1 2
SensiBILL Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, K-9 said: There is no inconsistency at all. It is apples and oranges in terms of game situations. Actually, the change in game situation, IMO, made passing at the 10 more of an acceptable option. At that point you were all focused on getting the 7 points vs the 3. With first and goal from the one with under 2 minutes in the half, the first two plays are no brainer run calls. You either get 7 or run time off the clock (or Jax uses there time outs). On third down they could have run the stupid play they did and I would have had less of a gripe (still wouldn't have liked it).
Alaska Darin Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said: Neither Zay nor Thompson track the ball in the air on deep passes well either. They both totally suck at it, at least in this stage of their careers. I didn't get a 100% sure look at it but it looked to me like Thompson didn't track it on the deep ball to him earlier in the game that looked overthrown. There were 5-10 of those this season just from those two guys, including the potential game winner against the Panthers. Agreed. I expect some of that, given their age/experience. There's no way we don't upgrade the position this offseason because the WR play this season left much to be desired.
HappyDays Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 20 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said: The 3rd down route drove me nuts. Run the damn route past the sticks and get the first down or just run the ball and eat the clock/force a timeout. The Patriots have been winning Championship after Championship because they play smart, situational football year after year and almost never beat themselves. We're exactly the opposite. Well this is the point. The OC hasn't put his players in the best possible position to succeed. They aren't hitting their ceiling. We know the offense can be better because it was last year. Instead it was one of the worst in the league and details like that route are the difference. Details like trying to make Tyrod into a quick rhythm passer in a playoff game. I don't get a sense that Dennison understands his personnel or game situation, he's just calling his scripted plays and hoping for the best.
K-9 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, SensiBILL said: Actually, the change in game situation, IMO, made passing at the 10 more of an acceptable option. At that point you were all focused on getting the 7 points vs the 3. With first and goal from the one with under 2 minutes in the half, the first two plays are no brainer run calls. You either get 7 or run time off the clock (or Jax uses there time outs). On third down they could have run the stupid play they did and I would have had less of a gripe (still wouldn't have liked it). Again, not interested in the Monday morning QBing aspect of the Benjamin play; only the play itself. As I said earlier, hindsight says the play was wrong because is failed. But that's too easy. We can agree to disagree on Dennison's strategy regarding his last series of the half.
Rochesterfan Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, HappyDays said: If Dennison called a RPO that means there was a pass option. I don't know what the argument is. There should have been no option. Of course they will stack the box. From the 2 you run it anyways. Happy - I get what you are saying, but is this not the issue with Taylor overall. If you can not trust Taylor with RPO’s in a situation that you know they are going to stack the box and leave you stud WR 1:1 then when are you going to trust him. Look people complain about Dennison for all of the shortcomings of the offense this year, but what do you want him to do. We complain that he does not move TT around and yet when they do move him outside on roll-outs - he was not very successful unlike SF 2 weeks ago. People wanted more RPO’s to give TT a chance to make these choices, but when they are called and the QB fails - everyone complains why would you call that there - even though it is standard NFL playcall near the end zone. People wanted call QB runs, and when they are called and fail it is complained about. The fact seems to be that Dennison is forced and constrained in what can be called because TT is a subpar QB. The fact that our OC is unable to call a very consistent and standard play call like an RPO is a huge part of the issue.
SensiBILL Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: Again, not interested in the Monday morning QBing aspect of the Benjamin play; only the play itself. As I said earlier, hindsight says the play was wrong because is failed. But that's too easy. We can agree to disagree on Dennison's strategy regarding his last series of the half. No hindsight, I think the play sucked. I thought it then, and I think it now. Should have been 2 run plays. IMO, this is a no-brainer. First and second down from there should of been runs. It's basic game management. It was a gift to get the ball first and ten from the one. One aspect of that gift was to either secure 7 or to severely reduce the odds of Jax getting anything. Dennison lost track of that by trying to be cute. An incomplete pass was of no value to the Bills while a stopped run had value. That's the key, a stopped run had value to the Bills while an incomplete pass did nothing. It may have turned out to just be a FG anyway. But Jax wouldn't have had time for anything else. And in that tight of a game, it's a big mistake.
K-9 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, SensiBILL said: No hindsight, I think the play sucked. I thought it then, and I think it now. Should have been 2 run plays. IMO, this is a no-brainer. First and second down from there should of been runs. It's basic game management. It was a gift to get the ball first and ten from the one. One aspect of that gift was to either secure 7 or to severely reduce the odds of Jax getting anything. Dennison lost track of that by trying to be cute. An incomplete pass was of no value to the Bills while a stopped run had value. That's the key, a stopped run had value to the Bills while an incomplete pass did nothing. It may have turned out to just be a FG anyway. But Jax wouldn't have had time for anything else. And in that tight of a game, it's a big mistake. No hindsight? Really? If that play works as designed are we having this discussion and are you still insisting the play sucked? The play sucked because of the lack of execution and and unnecessary OPI call. It was perfectly reasonable to give your QB an option down there, depending on what he saw from the defense. Indeed, that's what you'd expect in today's league. Hell, if we'd run it up the gut and it got stuffed for no gain, a loss, or a lost fumble, we'd be decrying the fact that TT should have seen Benjamin isolated in man coverage and all the "that's why we got him for our red zone offense" cries would be taking over today instead. Anyway, this discussion is exhausted. Nothing more to discuss on the issue as it's been hammered seven ways to Sunday already.
SensiBILL Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, K-9 said: No hindsight? Really? If that play works as designed are we having this discussion and are you still insisting the play sucked? The play sucked because of the lack of execution and and unnecessary OPI call. It was perfectly reasonable to give your QB an option down there, depending on what he saw from the defense. Indeed, that's what you'd expect in today's league. Hell, if we'd run it up the gut and it got stuffed for no gain, a loss, or a lost fumble, we'd be decrying the fact that TT should have seen Benjamin isolated in man coverage and all the "that's why we got him for our red zone offense" cries would be taking over today instead. Anyway, this discussion is exhausted. Nothing more to discuss on the issue as it's been hammered seven ways to Sunday already. I wanted a run. Actually first and second down runs. Expected it. You were just gifted a first and ten inside the 2 with under 2 minutes in the half. Run the ball twice and then if you haven't scored consider your options. I think it is poor play calling not to do that. I would not have thought it was a bad play call if the run was stuffed because time would have come off the clock (or Jax would have used a time out). And I wouldn't have thought it was a bad play call if there was a fumble or a hold. Poor plays that are successful are generally not the topics of discussion. Poor play calls that backfire with terrible results stick out, much like this one. I can understand some people might not think it is a big deal. That call still burns me.
HappyDays Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said: Happy - I get what you are saying, but is this not the issue with Taylor overall. If you can not trust Taylor with RPO’s in a situation that you know they are going to stack the box and leave you stud WR 1:1 then when are you going to trust him. I don't know what you mean. If it was an RPO the play is determined by the defense. If Tyrod identifies Benjamin in single coverage the RPO calls for a pass. That has nothing to do with Tyrod's shortcomings as a QB, it's just a poor play call. My point is you shouldn't put a pass option in. Just run it 3 times. We were getting good rush yardage against the Jags and their defense was worn down from a long drive. Run the ball. A fade pass to Benjamin who is being covered by one of the best CBs in the game is awful no matter what the defense shows. 1
3rdand12 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Good point. Funny thing is absolutely NO ONE would've said "hey! That should've been offensive pass interference!" Romo mentioned how high Benjamins hands were when he pushed off. Which he absolutely did. Refs cannot help but call that obvious stuff ( i would hope so ) I would thought it was a good call and pre snap read by Tyrod. execution is everything. Felt at the time, a fellow like Benjamin has to make that play regardless. It playoffs. Know your route and sure as heck be prepared to adjust. 4 hours ago, Alaska Darin said: Agreed. I expect some of that, given their age/experience. There's no way we don't upgrade the position this offseason because the WR play this season left much to be desired. indeed. The WR Coach might need to be addressed as the are wwake across the board . Excepting #25.
Saxum Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 8 hours ago, Mojo44 said: It’s not Denison! It was an OK call given that we have Benjamin. It was the execution. In other words, it was the quarterback! Denison is not the problem! It was a WR issue - on that play on 1st down Benjamin needed to not do Offensive Pass Interference (yes it is not always called) knowing the situation - 1st down with 2 additional downs (or three) to try to get ball in end zone.
frostbitmic Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 Should've at least lined Kyle Williams up in the backfield. 1
Saxum Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said: Romo mentioned how high Benjamins hands were when he pushed off. Which he absolutely did. Refs cannot help but call that obvious stuff ( i would hope so ) I would thought it was a good call and pre snap read by Tyrod. execution is everything. Felt at the time, a fellow like Benjamin has to make that play regardless. It playoffs. Know your route and sure as heck be prepared to adjust. indeed. The WR Coach might need to be addressed as the are wwake across the board . Excepting #25. Agree completely. The WR coach was a college coach who has not seemed to help our WRs progress.
3rdand12 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said: Neither Zay nor Thompson track the ball in the air on deep passes well either. They both totally suck at it, at least in this stage of their careers. I didn't get a 100% sure look at it but it looked to me like Thompson didn't track it on the deep ball to him earlier in the game that looked overthrown. There were 5-10 of those this season just from those two guys, including the potential game winner against the Panthers. Tyrod is lousy at times, way too much to be tolerable. But his line sucks, his receivers suck and his coaching suck. I think this is fair and balanced. when that many aspect of the Offense suck , ya gotta cut the head. Rick Dennison was not he guy. It happens. adjust 1
Saxum Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, frostbitmic said: Should've at least lined Kyle Williams up in the backfield. They would have been prepared for that. Stick him as a pass eligible TE and that would get their attention. 1
frostbitmic Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Limeaid said: They would have been prepared for that. Stick him as a pass eligible TE and that would get their attention. It would've just given them something else to think about. Lining him up as an eligible TE would've done the same. Keep them guessing.
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