Mr. WEO Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: No I don't pretend that. I have accepted numerous times that he obviously felt he could work with Rex successfully even though he was not his number 1 choice. But the Pegulas would have hired Rex Ryan without Whaley's say so. They'd have moved him on. It is exactly what they did this time too. McDermott was their guy... and this time they did see that it wasn't going to work with Whaley and move Whaley on. What are you basing this on? Can you link to something that contradicts what Whaley said after the hiring? You are clearly saying they hired Rex against the recommendation or wishes of their GM. Why would they do that as they are asking how to make a choice? How does that make sense?
BringBackOrton Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 5 hours ago, MAJBobby said: GM while McCoy was traded for. The GM gets that credit sorry Grigson drafted the best QB prospect this decade. Should the Packers hire him?
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: What are you basing this on? Can you link to something that contradicts what Whaley said after the hiring? You are clearly saying they hired Rex against the recommendation or wishes of their GM. Why would they do that as they are asking how to make a choice? How does that make sense? No I am definitively not saying that. I am saying that even had Whaley said "don't hire Rex", which I have no reason to believe he did the Pegulas were absolutely on the Rex train. Evidence? Look at what happened this time. They said "Doug is in charge of finding the coach he is our GM" then they picked their guy (a hire I was 100% on board with by the way) blocked Whaley from interviewing Keith Butler and promptly thereafter fired Doug Whaley. When it comes to picking their coaches the Pegulas pick their guy. There nay be other people in the room and I am sure those people try and advise... but the Pegulas go with their gut. 4 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Grigson drafted the best QB prospect this decade. Should the Packers hire him? The Browns already did
BringBackOrton Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Why do people even say this nonsense? He didn't draft EJ...and who cares even if he did, EVERY QB that year blows. Then Rex wanted TT...and his 2 years with Whaley, TT was invited to the Pro Bowl twice, the Bills offense was the 2nd highest scoring 2 year period in Bills History, 2nd only to the SB runs first 2 years. And also during that time, the Bills defense was one of the worst in the NFL and by far the biggest problem on this team. The things people blame on Whaley are comical at best. The guy found a lot of talent in places no one thought he could, made some great trades, and was saddled with a terrible coaching staff thanks to the owners insisting on Rex...otherwise, he MOST LIKELY still has his job here had we had McD the whole time, or maybe even if Marrone had stayed. By far the absolute worst part of this organization was the Ryan brothers, who were NOT Whaley's choice to being with and the reason he got fired. And this is from someone who initially loved the Rex Ryan hire and has since realized just how bad he and his brother were after watching them destroy our defense with over complicated crap. 3 hours ago, ProcessTheTrust said: I don't blame him for the EJ pick. I know that was still while Nix was in charge. However, to not take a swing on a list of guys the next few years, not being able to see EJ isn't close to franchise quality...that's where he struck out. I'm giving him credit for almost every other position. I don't hate Whaley like most. What? No. 3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Why did we make the playoffs this year: Better coaching. Rex was chosen by Pegs, not Whaley. McD was hired by WHALEY just like Marrone was who led us to 9-7 in his. first year with an awful offense and has now taken Jags to playoffs in first year as HC. Better defense: Major improvements by getting rid of Ryan brothers, but also MASSIVE over haul of the secondary. All 3 players, among the NFL leaders in Interceptions too, that turned it around (Hyde, Poyer, and Tre) all here because of WHALEY. McCoy: Also here because of WHALEY...not to mention Clay and Incognito. In fact, all of our best players on offense this year except for KB were here because of WHALEY. In addition: All of our best players on defense were all here also because of WHALEY. Whaley did a LOT of this team but was saddled with a terrible coaching hire that dismantled the defense of this team at a time where our offense made a major turnaround. That defensive liability, terrible coaching, and a horrible streak of injury bad luck is what held this team down the previous 2 years before McD. This whole QB crap is nonsense. Nix forced EJ onto him, which led to him trying to make something of him and add some peices around him. Marrone wanted a Vet, so he got top available Vet at the time. Then Rex wanted TT and he went and got the new coach the QB he wanted. That QB then turned the offense into the highest scoring period in Bills history behind only the early SB years while the Ryan experiment (thanks to the Pegs) imploded the defense and made it a massive liability. I like Beane too even though I don't agree with everything he has done, but the Whaley hate is ridiculous around here as he gets blamed for things not his fault while also not getting credit for so many really good things he did. What? No. 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: The Browns already did Not as GM. Apparently "happened under your watch, you get credit," doesn't actually apply.
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 1 minute ago, jmc12290 said: Not as GM. Apparently "happened under your watch, you get credit," doesn't actually apply. I know. I am just amazed anyone in the league would leave him in charge of anything. He had that one good class in 2012 - Luck, TY, the two tight ends and Vick Ballard who had a nice rookie year before injury got him. After that? It was really ugly.
Schmuggs Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 Whaley is a great GM. He is smart and down to earth, a real nice guy. I for one really miss him. He is definitely qualified for the job and should land it... mlm
Mr. WEO Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: No I am definitively not saying that. I am saying that even had Whaley said "don't hire Rex", which I have no reason to believe he did the Pegulas were absolutely on the Rex train. Evidence? Look at what happened this time. They said "Doug is in charge of finding the coach he is our GM" then they picked their guy (a hire I was 100% on board with by the way) blocked Whaley from interviewing Keith Butler and promptly thereafter fired Doug Whaley. When it comes to picking their coaches the Pegulas pick their guy. There nay be other people in the room and I am sure those people try and advise... but the Pegulas go with their gut. The Browns already did Whaley put them on that train. He said as much in no uncertain terms. It doesn't make much sense for these two football novices (but not simple people) to simply fall for a sweet talking Rex over the known opinion of their GM. By all accounts, they asked his opinion on how you know who to pick...and he told them. To say they were dead set on Rex over Whaley's choice (again, an even worse pick) goes against the events as they were reported. As Whaley himself says he and Rex were rhapsodizing about how in sync they were about the direction and type of team they wanted to build--"completing each other's sentences"! Yet at this same time, Pegula was bored enough by the process that he said he was falling asleep. He was placing it in the hands of Whaley. THIS time, they picked their guy because the last time they placed their trust in Whaley, they felt he burned them with Rex.
JohnBonhamRocks Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 Hiring a GM requires 2 things: (1) hiring, and (2) a GM.
MAJBobby Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 1 hour ago, jmc12290 said: Grigson drafted the best QB prospect this decade. Should the Packers hire him? Did i say ANYWHERE or Anything about Packers hiring him
BringBackOrton Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Did i say ANYWHERE or Anything about Packers hiring him Well why shouldn't they? He gets credit, doesn't he? Are you saying that credit doesn't count or something?
MAJBobby Posted January 4, 2018 Posted January 4, 2018 42 minutes ago, jmc12290 said: Well why shouldn't they? He gets credit, doesn't he? Are you saying that credit doesn't count or something? I said he did bring in the best player on the team. That is all i said didnt I
ndirish1978 Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 Whaley would be an excellent Director of Pro Player Personnel, not sure he has the leadership abilities to be a GM though.
Wayne Arnold Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I am saying that even had Whaley said "don't hire Rex", the Pegulas were absolutely on the Rex train. Do Terry and Kim Pegula come across as people who would basically tell an NFL general manager to f off after he told them not to hire a coach?
BringBackOrton Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, MAJBobby said: I said he did bring in the best player on the team. That is all i said didnt I So did Grigson, didn't he?
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said: Do Terry and Kim Pegula come across as people who would basically tell an NFL general manager to f off after he told them not to hire a coach? They absolutely come across as people who are going to back their own judgment. They were the catalysts for Greg Roman's firing. They got told by the GM of their other team that the coach was staying at the end of the last hockey season decided they didn't like that answer and fired the both of them. Terry and Kim Pegula make the decisions about who leads their franchises. I can't actually believe that this is still in any doubt with some people. They listen to others but ultimately then they make the decisions and if other people in the building don't like it they shake their hands and move on.
Wayne Arnold Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: They absolutely come across as people who are going to back their own judgment. They were the catalysts for Greg Roman's firing. They got told by the GM of their other team that the coach was staying at the end of the last hockey season decided they didn't like that answer and fired the both of them. Terry and Kim Pegula make the decisions about who leads their franchises. I can't actually believe that this is still in any doubt with some people. They listen to others but ultimately then they make the decisions and if other people in the building don't like it they shake their hands and move on. Ignoring a GM who tells you that you shouldn't hire a coach would make one an idiot. And I don't think the Pegulas are idiots.
BadLandsMeanie Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 It takes two things to win in this league, players and Whaley.
ghostwriter Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: They absolutely come across as people who are going to back their own judgment. They were the catalysts for Greg Roman's firing. They got told by the GM of their other team that the coach was staying at the end of the last hockey season decided they didn't like that answer and fired the both of them. Terry and Kim Pegula make the decisions about who leads their franchises. I can't actually believe that this is still in any doubt with some people. They listen to others but ultimately then they make the decisions and if other people in the building don't like it they shake their hands and move on. When push comes to shove, they'll get their way but same could be said about any owner. Terry gave Rex Ryan a lot of power and then he gave McD even more power. In fact, every coach that Terry has hired has progressively got more and more power and giving McD total control is paying off well I think we can all agree upon.
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 6 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said: Ignoring a GM who tells you that you shouldn't hire a coach would make one an idiot. And I don't think the Pegulas are idiots. I don't agree. Backing your own judgment ia never idiotic IMO.
Nihilarian Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) On 1/4/2018 at 1:57 PM, Mr. WEO said: This is the stuff the Whaley people have to convince themselves of before they try to convince the rest of us. It's a heavy lift. EJ wasn't "forced" on Whaley. Nix was a lame duck GM and everyone knew the Bills were going to draft a QB because of the miserable failure of Nix and Whaley at scouting and picking one before that. Whaley has told us in his own words how he was all for the Rex pick (his purported "top choice" of Hue Jackson was infinitely worse and indicative of how clueless Whaley is). There should be no doubt that Pegula, who as a guy who knows nothing about staffing an NFL team, relied heavily on Whaley and Russ in picking the HC. Whaley was FIRED by Pegula for that error in judgment. As soon as Pegula fired Rex, everyone knew that Whaley was a lame duck. It's widely assumed that McD was running the draft board--even replacing Whaley's picks with his own. He was given that authority by Pegula. 1 EJ was, in fact, Whaley's choice at QB because he personally scouted him and after the draft stated as much in a team video. He was "all in on EJ". To make matters worse he traded two first rounders and a fourth for a WR to help his choice at QB. What really gets me is right after the team drafted Watkins they said they were still looking for that big, tall red zone target!! As far as Rex Ryan goes let's not forget that Russ Brandon also had some influence in the Ryan hire by telling the Pegulas to "not let him leave the building." If Whaley had not wanted to hire Rex Ryan he should have made that point heard and instead went along with that choice. On another note, anyone else recall Whaley drafting EJ and then not bringing in a veteran QB or a veteran NFL QB coach to help his choice at rookie QB properly develop and learn the NFL ropes. EJ's only mentor was an offensive coordinator who had never been an NFL OC. Not to mention that the Oline he built was with 5 mill per guaranteed for OG Chris Willams who was the worst line player on the Rams the previous season and lasted a whole 3 games for Buffalo. OG Doug Greg Legursky was another bum brought in by Whaley. Besides the lack of people to help develop the QB how moronic is it to draft a rookie QB only to have him start behind a woeful line. Whaley had no freaking clue about anything other than defense. To quote Rotoworld on the Bills 2013 Oline: While Fitzpatrick was error prone and lacked starting-caliber arm talent, his quick release masked up-front flaws that may be exposed with painfully-raw rookie E.J. Manuel under center. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/43265/179/2013-offensive-line-rankings?pg=3 As far as the 2017 Draft it was McD who made the final selections for players to draft and Whaley, scouts set up the board. For an NFL GM, Doug Whaley made a lot of foolish, stupid moves that should have seen him fired much sooner then he was. Should Polian have been hired by the Pegulas after they purchased the team he stated one of his first moves would have been to replace Whaley. Perhaps the Browns will hire Whaley for some position in their front office like they did for that idiot Grigson. Bills fans should be rejoicing with the old regime gone and what this new regime has already accomplished. Edited January 5, 2018 by Nihilarian
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