Rapaport: Expects Whaley to interview for GM job in GB

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Ignoring a GM who tells you that you shouldn't hire a coach would make one an idiot. And I don't think the Pegulas are idiots.

 

 

 

That's probably a bit strong, but basically correct. If Whaley had said that he couldn't work with Ryan, the Pegulas almost certainly would have picked someone else. Having decided against a czar, Whaley was going to be the main football voice. You wouldn't go against that as a very new owner.

 

 

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree. Backing your own judgment ia never idiotic IMO. 

 

Backing your own judgment is idiotic a lot of the time.

 

If it weren't, why would anyone ever take advice? Or change their minds? Ross Perot had a chance to buy Microsoft for $40 to $60 mill at one point. Says it was "one of the worst business mistakes I've ever made." He backed his own judgment and it certainly was idiotic. 

 

Excite passed on Google for $750K.

 

The Ravens gave Flacco a huge contract when they had Tyrod on the roster. People ignore good advice and make bad judgments all the time.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Backing your own judgment is idiotic a lot of the time.

 

If it weren't, why would anyone ever take advice. Ross Perot had a chance to buy Microsoft for $40 to $60 mill at one point. Says it was "one of the worst business mistakes I've ever made." He backed his own judgment and it certainly was idiotic. 

 

No, making bad decisions is idiotic. But I tell you what is more idiotic - listening to advice really feeling it is wrong and ignoring your instincts and going along with it. 

 

Always take advice on big decisions in life. Never be beholden to that advice. 

[Thurman#1]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No, making bad decisions is idiotic. But I tell you what is more idiotic - listening to advice really feeling it is wrong and ignoring your instincts and going along with it. 

 

Always take advice on big decisions in life. Never be beholden to that advice. 

 

 

You say you'll tell me what is more idiotic than making bad decisions? Bill, IMHO nothing is.

 

Big decisions are judged by whether they were correct or not. 

 

And when you're new in a field as the Pegulas were in football, you should listen to the professional advice you bought. When you're new in a field, your instincts aren't worth much. 

 

My bet is that if Whaley had nixed (heh heh) Ryan the Pegulas would've gone along with it. And held him responsible for giving them that advice, but they'd have followed it. No way to know, but that early on they'd probably have listened. Putting a coach under a GM who said he couldn't get along with the guy wouldn't have made sense.

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

 

 

In any case, I wish Whaley the best. Seemed like a good guy. But I'd never give him a position in my (theoretical) team over assistant GM or better yet pro personnel director.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

You say you'll tell me what is more idiotic than making bad decisions? Bill, IMHO nothing is.

 

Big decisions aren't judged by whether or not you went along with or ignored advice or your instincts. They're judged by whether they were correct or not. 

 

And when you're new in a field as the Pegulas were in football, you should listen to the professional advice you bought. When you're new in a field, your instincts aren't worth much. 

 

 

You misinterpreted my post.... I was not saying anything was more idiotic than making bad decisions.  I was saying just doing what advisers tell you when you think is wrong is more idiotic than not listening to the advice.  

 

And as to the bolded - that was exactly my point.  The Pegulas listen to advice but ultimately their opinions were the ones that mattered in BOTH hires. 

 

The Rex hire was an incorrect decision that is mainly on them.  I don't completely absolve Whaley of blame, never have - he either thought Rex was good enough to work with or didn't have the force of character / ability to communicate to persuade them to do something different.  But Rex Ryan's hiring was a Pegula decision.  

 

The McDermott hire they did the same thing.  At this point that looks like a correct decision (and I was instantly of the view that McD was a better hire than Rex).  If it works out I will fight pretty strongly against anyone who tries to say "Whaley was the GM he hired him give him credit" because he didn't.  Sean McDermott's hiring was a Pegula decision too.  

[Thurman#1]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I blame Whaley for that pretty much completely. He should've known and he should've told them. If they'd then overruled him ... then it would have been a Pegula decision. Whaley's the one who should have known.

 

The Pegulas were new and not in a position to know.

 

Agreed that the McD decision was on the Pegulas. At that point, they had pretty good reason to doubt Whaley after he was part of the decision on two coaches and couldn't get along with either one.

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

My bet is that if Whaley had nixed (heh heh) Ryan the Pegulas would've gone along with it. And held him responsible for giving them that advice, but they'd have followed it. No way to know, but that early on they'd probably have listened. Putting a coach under a GM who said he couldn't get along with the guy wouldn't have made sense.

 

 

Agree that there is no way to know absolutely what would have happened but I think when you look at the Pegulas history both here and with the Sabres when they get a strong feeling about somebody they act on it. 

 

- They instigated the players only meetings that resulted in the firing of Greg Roman;

- They turned over huge power to a first time Head Coach as soon as they hired him (the kind of power normally reserved for a Bill Belichick or an Andy Reid);

- They wanted to fire Dan Bylsma and when their GM told them he wanted to keep him they backed their own judgment and fired them both.

 

It seems to me to be inarguable that when they form an opinion on an individual they see it through.  

[Thurman#1]

It's not inarguable at all. I'm arguing very reasonably that hiring Ryan was mostly on Whaley.

 

Seeing them do things in some cases - without knowing what they'd have done if the advice they'd received had been different  - doesn't show what they do in all cases. It just doesn't.

 

Giving McDermott the power was said by the Pegulas not to be immediate but came from watching what he did when he arrived, and again is very likely to have resulted partly from Whaley's very weakened position. They watched Whaley be involved in two coach searches and then have terrible relationships with both. 

 

On Roman:  "'This morning I informed ownership of my decision and they were supportive of it,' Ryan said during a news conference Friday. 'This was my move 100 percent.'"

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000703603/article/buffalo-bills-fire-offensive-coordinator-greg-roman

 

The Pegulas had meetings with some players. And we know nothing of anything they thought or did as a result. That's not a good example for your argument.

 

More, the decisions you're talking about came later in their tenure. The Bylsma thing came six years after they took over with the Sabres. Giving McDermott the power happened after three years handling the Bills for the Pegulas.

 

The Ryan search came about two and a half months into their tenure. There's no reason whatsoever to think they'd have gone against Whaley if he'd been strongly against Ryan that early in their football venture.

 

It'd be easy to imagine the Pegulas maybe not hiring a guy Whaley recommended if they just didn't like him. But putting a guy in to work with Whaley if Whaley said he didn't want him? Just wouldn't make sense.

 

And in fact, nobody has ever suggested that Whaley was anything but positive about Ryan. Whaley was the guy who'd been around coaching and football.

 

Whaley should have known even if the Pegulas didn't. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

It's not inarguable at all. I'm arguing very reasonably that hiring Ryan was mostly on Whaley.

 

Seeing them do things in some cases - without knowing what they'd have done if the advice they'd received had been different  - doesn't show what they do in all cases. It just doesn't.

 

Giving McDermott the power was said by the Pegulas not to be immediate but came from watching what he did when he arrived, and again is very likely to have resulted partly from Whaley's very weakened position. They watched Whaley be involved in two coach searches and then have terrible relationships with both. 

 

On Roman:  "'This morning I informed ownership of my decision and they were supportive of it,' Ryan said during a news conference Friday. 'This was my move 100 percent.'"

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000703603/article/buffalo-bills-fire-offensive-coordinator-greg-roman

 

The Pegulas had meetings with some players. And we know nothing of anything they thought or did as a result. That's not a good example for your argument.

 

More, the decisions you're talking about came later in their tenure. The Bylsma thing came six years after they took over with the Sabres. Giving McDermott the power happened after three years handling the Bills for the Pegulas.

 

The Ryan search came early in their tenure, and after they'd made what turned out to be a bad decision to keep Marrone in charge. There's no reason whatsoever to think they'd have gone against Whaley if he'd been strongly against Ryan that early in their football venture. And in fact, nobody has ever suggested that Whaley was anything but positive about Ryan. Whaley was the guy who'd been around coaching and football.

 

Whaley should have known even if the Pegulas didn't. 

 

 

 

Again you slightly misinterpret the bit I am saying is inarguable.  I think it is inarguable that the Pegulas see things through when they make decisions on people.  The evidence of their behaviour with both franchises points very clearly to that.  I did not say it is inarguable that the Rex thing went down in a specific way or that their pattern proves what happened in individual cases. That is open to interpretation I totally agree... I don't think the fact that they are, in general, decisive about people when they make decisions is arguable.  The evidence is there.  

 

The ONLY think I know to be inarguable in the Rex hiring process was that Whaley was asked to rank the candidates after the initial interviews and ranked Hue Jackson as his #1 candidate.  Again - this is not about me trying to defend Doug Whaley - as WEO likes to point out Hue hasn't been a success either so maybe that would have been as bad or even worse than Rex. I don't know where Whaley ranked Rex Ryan, he may well have ranked him 2nd.  Again, I repeat even if he ranked Rex Ryan bottom of his list he deserves blame for not being a strong enough personality or a good enough communicator or both to put the Pegulas off him.  

 

As for the Roman decision.... I know what Rex said.  I just find that frankly unbelievable.  Your owners convene a specific meeting without you or other coaches present with your players to discuss the future of your OC and then suddenly Rex decided off his own bat to fire the OC?? I think you'd have to be born in never never land to believe that was coincidence.  

[Thurman#1]

38 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again you slightly misinterpret the bit I am saying is inarguable.  I think it is inarguable that the Pegulas see things through when they make decisions on people.  The evidence of their behaviour with both franchises points very clearly to that.  I did not say it is inarguable that the Rex thing went down in a specific way or that their pattern proves what happened in individual cases. That is open to interpretation I totally agree... I don't think the fact that they are, in general, decisive about people when they make decisions is arguable.  The evidence is there.  

 

The ONLY think I know to be inarguable in the Rex hiring process was that Whaley was asked to rank the candidates after the initial interviews and ranked Hue Jackson as his #1 candidate.  Again - this is not about me trying to defend Doug Whaley - as WEO likes to point out Hue hasn't been a success either so maybe that would have been as bad or even worse than Rex. I don't know where Whaley ranked Rex Ryan, he may well have ranked him 2nd.  Again, I repeat even if he ranked Rex Ryan bottom of his list he deserves blame for not being a strong enough personality or a good enough communicator or both to put the Pegulas off him.  

 

As for the Roman decision.... I know what Rex said.  I just find that frankly unbelievable.  Your owners convene a specific meeting without you or other coaches present with your players to discuss the future of your OC and then suddenly Rex decided off his own bat to fire the OC?? I think you'd have to be born in never never land to believe that was coincidence.  

 

 

Bill, I like your stuff, but this is getting really tiring.

 

You said "It seems to me to be inarguable that when they form an opinion on an individual they see it through."

 

I simply disagree. There's not much there to misunderstand. I'm saying that not only is in very very arguable, but that the evidence simply isn't there to show that.

 

Less than three months into the Pegulas tenure with the Bills there's every likelihood they would have listened to Whaley if he'd been strongly negative on Ryan. They wouldn't have paired the two if Whaley had been strongly negative, they'd have stayed away from Ryan. The only alternative would have been to get rid of Whaley and they had nobody else at that point.

 

And is it seeing things through when the Pegulas give Regier a new contract on Jan. 19th and then fire him in November of the same year?

 

As for Roman ... you find it unbelievable, and yet it's never been argued by anyone. It's easy to believe the evidence supports your argument if you believe the evidence that supports it and don't believe the evidence that doesn't. That's called confirmation bias.

 

That's enough on this for me. Have a great day. See you around the boards.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Wayne Arnold]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No, making bad decisions is idiotic. But I tell you what is more idiotic - listening to advice really feeling it is wrong and ignoring your instincts and going along with it. 

 

Always take advice on big decisions in life. Never be beholden to that advice. 

 

I know absolutely nothing about fracking, so I wouldn't ignore fracking advice from Terry Pegula even if I strongly felt that his advice was wrong and against my own personal instinct. That would make me an idiot.

 

The Pegulas know very little about football compared to Whaley. For them to go against his advice for such an important decision would be absolutely idiotic.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

I know absolutely nothing about fracking, so I wouldn't ignore fracking advice from Terry Pegula even if I strongly felt that his advice was wrong and against my own personal instinct. That would make me an idiot.

 

The Pegulas know very little about football compared to Whaley. For them to go against his advice for such an important decision would be absolutely idiotic.

 

I'm sorry I don't agree.  Following it because someone established told you too even if you really believe their advice to be wrong makes you an idiot. Always take advice, never be beholden to it.  It's a principle I have always found useful to live by.  

 

EDIT:  Not that I have argued that is what happened in this case.  I don't think Whaley did strongly argue against Rex... or if he tried to he did it totally ineffectively.  

Edited January 5, 2018 by GunnerBill

[Mr. WEO]

48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm sorry I don't agree.  Following it because someone established told you too even if you really believe their advice to be wrong makes you an idiot. Always take advice, never be beholden to it.  It's a principle I have always found useful to live by.  

 

EDIT:  Not that I have argued that is what happened in this case.  I don't think Whaley did strongly argue against Rex... or if he tried to he did it totally ineffectively.  

 

He did neither of these.  There is no evidence he did anything but support the selection of Rex as HC.  He said so, the Pegulas said so.  There is no other story to the opposite. 

 

Whaley helped Pegula pull the trigger on Rex.  This really can't be disputed.  You and others want to continue with this picture of a very apprehensive Whaley not "speaking up" about his reservations about Rex, when there IS no evidence he had anything but solid backing of the pick.  It's all fantasy to prop up your backing of Whaley.

 

If you think he was a good GM, fine.  But you can't seek to convince others by confabulating a story of what really went on behind closed doors with no evidence to counter all evidence.

[GunnerBill]

42 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He did neither of these.  There is no evidence he did anything but support the selection of Rex as HC.  He said so, the Pegulas said so.  There is no other story to the opposite. 

 

Whaley helped Pegula pull the trigger on Rex.  This really can't be disputed.  You and others want to continue with this picture of a very apprehensive Whaley not "speaking up" about his reservations about Rex, when there IS no evidence he had anything but solid backing of the pick.  It's all fantasy to prop up your backing of Whaley.

 

If you think he was a good GM, fine.  But you can't seek to convince others by confabulating a story of what really went on behind closed doors with no evidence to counter all evidence.

 

When have I said that WEO? You won't find it.  All I have ever said on the matter is the Pegulas fell for Rex and Whaley's first choice was Jackson.  Those things are both true.  And I didn't "back" Whaley either.  I think Rex was more to blame for our failures than Whaley was.  It is certainly true that I have said that. I don't think Whaley was the disaster that you make him out to be but ultimately there were enough serious question marks about his ability to do elements of the GM job that he failed here and I have repeatedly said I don't see him getting straight back in as a GM anywhere else.  

 

It isn't about propping up Whaley.  That is utter nonsense.  

Edited January 5, 2018 by GunnerBill

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

When have I said that WEO? You won't find it.  All I have ever said on the matter is the Pegulas fell for Rex and Whaley's first choice was Jackson.  Those things are both true.  And I didn't "back" Whaley either.  I think Rex was more to blame for our failures than Whaley was.  It is certainly true that I have said that. I don't think Whaley was the disaster that you make him out to be but ultimately there were enough serious question marks about his ability to do elements of the GM job that he failed here and I have repeatedly said I don't see him getting straight back in as a GM anywhere else.  

 

It isn't about propping up Whaley.  That is utter nonsense.  

 

Every supporter of Whaley takes the tidbit that (a truly horrible) Hue Jackson was Whaley's first choice and then turning that into subtle or outright opposition to the Rex hire.

 

It can be true that he may have preferred Hue and that he was as enthusiastic about the hiring of Rex as his own words describe in great detail.  You have made clear that it is possible his words are completely at odds with his true feelings, which he may, for reasons that have not been explained, did not "speak up enough" about when the Pegulas asked him to help them select the next HC.

 

There is simply no reason to believe that Whaley held back in discussing his thoughts about this back then.  None.

 

Whaley was a disaster.  The new HC nearly wiped clean the imprint Whaley made on this team in a single off season.  The Bills are in the playoffs as soon as Whaley and his crew are gone.

[Rico]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Every supporter of Whaley takes the tidbit that (a truly horrible) Hue Jackson was Whaley's first choice and then turning that into subtle or outright opposition to the Rex hire.

 

It can be true that he may have preferred Hue and that he was as enthusiastic about the hiring of Rex as his own words describe in great detail.  You have made clear that it is possible his words are completely at odds with his true feelings, which he may, for reasons that have not been explained, did not "speak up enough" about when the Pegulas asked him to help them select the next HC.

 

There is simply no reason to believe that Whaley held back in discussing his thoughts about this back then.  None.

 

Whaley was a disaster.  The new HC nearly wiped clean the imprint Whaley made on this team in a single off season.  The Bills are in the playoffs as soon as Whaley and his crew are gone.

Your final paragraph is 100% accurate, but I put the Rex hire directly on Pegs, with an assist to Brandon. Whaley was in no position to speak against the move, as he was lucky to just keep his job after 2014 when Polian didn’t come in. As far as him being on-board with the hiring, don’t take for gospel truth any GM-speak you read on the Internet, especially if Chris Brown is doing the reporting.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Rico said:

Your final paragraph is 100% accurate, but I put the Rex hire directly on Pegs, with an assist to Brandon. Whaley was in no position to speak against the move, as he was lucky to just keep his job after 2014 when Polian didn’t come in. As far as him being on-board with the hiring, don’t take for gospel truth any GM-speak you read on the Internet, especially if Chris Brown is doing the reporting.

 

This wasn't balnd GM speak announcing the hire, nor was it Chris Brown reporting.

 

Whaley GUSHED over the selection, when asked.  Why WOULDN"T the football novice Pegulas ask him "but how do you know" who is the right guy.  This is Doug quoting them---and his answer.  In fact, while Doug and Rex were completing eachothers' sentences over how they were completely simpatico about how the team should be built, Pegula got SLEEPY!  Does that sound like Jerry Jones?   Like an owner who is ram rodding his choice over his GM's?

 

If Whaley had recommended someone else and then was over-ruled in favor of Rex, he would still be GM of the Bills today.  Pegula would have shamefully admitted his mistake and let Doug be in charge of everything this year.  Instead, he fired him right after a draft where he gave McD veto power over Whaley's draft board, for starters.

[Solomon Grundy]

11 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

EJ was, in fact, Whaley's choice at QB because he personally scouted him and after the draft stated as much in a team video. He was "all in on EJ". To make matters worse he traded two first rounders and a fourth for a WR to help his choice at QB.  What really gets me is right after the team drafted Watkins they said they were still looking for that big, tall red zone target!! 

 

As far as Rex Ryan goes let's not forget that Russ Brandon also had some influence in the Ryan hire by telling the Pegulas to "not let him leave the building." If Whaley had not wanted to hire Rex Ryan he should have made that point heard and instead went along with that choice. 

 

 

On another note, anyone else recall Whaley drafting EJ and then not bringing in a veteran QB or a veteran NFL QB coach to help his choice at rookie QB properly develop and learn the NFL ropes. EJ's only mentor was an offensive coordinator who had never been an NFL OC.  Not to mention that the Oline he built was with 5 mill per guaranteed for OG Chris Willams who was the worst line player on the Rams the previous season and lasted a whole 3 games for Buffalo. OG Doug Greg Legursky was another bum brought in by Whaley. Besides the lack of people to help develop the QB how moronic is it to draft a rookie QB only to have him start behind a woeful line. 

 

Whaley had no freaking clue about anything other than defense. To quote Rotoworld on the Bills 2013 Oline:  While Fitzpatrick was error prone and lacked starting-caliber arm talent, his quick release masked up-front flaws that may be exposed with painfully-raw rookie E.J. Manuel under center. http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/43265/179/2013-offensive-line-rankings?pg=3

 

As far as the 2017 Draft it was McD who made the final selections for players to draft and Whaley, scouts set up the board.

 

For an NFL GM, Doug Whaley made a lot of foolish, stupid moves that should have seen him fired much sooner then he was. Should Polian have been hired by the Pegulas after they purchased the team he stated one of his first moves would have been to replace Whaley. 

 

Perhaps the Browns will hire Whaley for some position in their front office like they did for that idiot Grigson. Bills fans should be rejoicing with the old regime gone and what this new regime has already accomplished. 

 

I seem to remember a QB who slipped on a mat and tore his ACL.

[Nihilarian]

4 hours ago, the skycap said:

I seem to remember a QB who slipped on a mat and tore his ACL.

That is very true. 

 

It is also true that in 2013 the team had QB Ryan Fitzpatrick, QB Tavaris Jackson, QB Matt Leinhart, QB Matt Flynn, QB Thad Lewis, QB Jeff Tuel along with Mattboy Kevin Kolb all on the roster at some point that offseason.

 

Of all those QBs Doug Whaley chose to keep rookies EJ, Tuel, and Thaddeus Lewis on the final roster. Lewis who actually had one game start in a losing effort for the Browns in 2012. 

 

The simple fact is that Whaley chose to go into that 2013 season as the GM with basically three rookie QB's on the roster with no veteran QB to help guide them. No QB coach whatsoever and the only guy they were all learning from as OC had never previously been an NFL offensive coordinator or an NFL QB coach. 

 

So, is it any wonder why those three Bills QBs finished the season with QBR (EJ 41.2) ( Lewis 23.0) (Tuel 12.8) No real NFL GM would have allowed this to happen.

 

 

[BuffaloRush]

LOL to all those Bills fan trying to revise history.  As I stated in my thread days ago the job did go to an internal candidate and that the whole Rappaport tweet was stirred up by Doug's agent.  Makes you see a little more clearly where the leaks are coming from