Billsfansinceday1 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 I just finished a book about The Battle of the Bulge. I would bet some of our fathers and grandfathers were in that heroic fight to the death 73 years ago today in the freezing, snowy Ardennes. Greatest Generation to be sure. ? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfansinceday1 Posted December 31, 2017 Author Share Posted December 31, 2017 I was stationed in Belgium for 4 years and was able to visit Luxembourg several times. The American military cemetery here is chilling. 5,076 American heroes are in perfect formation, all facing the headstone of the man who lead them to victory- General Patton. It puts a lot of things into proper perspective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) Patton was a bit of an asshat who died in a car crash after the War was over... He was old "Guts and Glory" as in his troops' guts exchanged for Patton's glory. At least that's what his own troops thought of him. Dude is most overrated military tactician of all time, and was considered nothing special by the German officer corps at the time who were the real pros of that conflict. Von Manstein? Guderian? Rommel? Von Rundstedt? Heinrici? Too many tactical superstars on the German side in that conflict to list. Edited December 31, 2017 by Fadingpain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 My grandfather left Germany as a child and came to America. He enlisted at 16 under an alias as he was too young and they didn't like taking 1st generation Germans best generation for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fadingpain said: Patton was a bit of an asshat who died in a car crash after the War was over... He was old "Guts and Glory" as in his troops' guts exchanged for Patton's glory. At least that's what his own troops thought of him. Dude is most overrated military tactician of all time, and was considered nothing special by the German officer corps at the time who were the real pros of that conflict. Von Manstein? Guderian? Rommel? Von Rundstedt? Heinrici? Too many tactical superstars on the German side in that conflict to list. Patton and MacArthur and Stonewall Jackson’s hype don’t survive an honest and objective review of the mythology Edited December 31, 2017 by row_33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 2 hours ago, row_33 said: Patton and MacArthur and Stonewall Jackson’s hype don’t survive an honest and objective review of the mythology Jackson's does - his Shenandoah campaign was indisputably brilliant, and he had the best understanding of mass and maneuver as any American general in history, period. Patton was overrated. MacArthur was...complicated. He had his share of brilliance...but in a 40+ year career, you'd expect him to get something right, and it's hard not to look askance at a general whose tactics in divisional command in World War 1 were considered "bloodthirsty" by the French - the same people whose army mutinied over casualties. 3 hours ago, Fadingpain said: Patton was a bit of an asshat who died in a car crash after the War was over... He was old "Guts and Glory" as in his troops' guts exchanged for Patton's glory. At least that's what his own troops thought of him. Dude is most overrated military tactician of all time, and was considered nothing special by the German officer corps at the time who were the real pros of that conflict. Von Manstein? Guderian? Rommel? Von Rundstedt? Heinrici? Too many tactical superstars on the German side in that conflict to list. Heinrici? You're an idiot. 8 hours ago, Billsfansinceday1 said: I was stationed in Belgium for 4 years and was able to visit Luxembourg several times. The American military cemetery here is chilling. 5,076 American heroes are in perfect formation, all facing the headstone of the man who lead them to victory- General Patton. It puts a lot of things into proper perspective. Battle of Bastogne: 22,000 Americans surrounded for seven days, suffer 3000 casualties before being relieved. Battle of Stalingrad: half a million Axis fight a million and a half Russians for four months. Four out of every five people die. They still dig up skeletons at construction sites in Volgograd. That's "proper perspective." 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv's Neighbor Posted January 1, 2018 Share Posted January 1, 2018 22 hours ago, Billsfansinceday1 said: I was stationed in Belgium for 4 years and was able to visit Luxembourg several times. The American military cemetery here is chilling. 5,076 American heroes are in perfect formation, all facing the headstone of the man who lead them to victory- General Patton. It puts a lot of things into proper perspective. From what I've seen, "the neighborhood has changed!" I was in Cologne in 2015, and met a USN couple who were on leave/vacation. They told me that they had orders to stay out of Belgium, because of terrorist activity. I met them one month after the Bataclan event in Paris, security was already heightened, there was a New years eve riot in the Cologne train station, and a couple of months later significant terrorist event started in Brussels, and the area. It's a beautiful part of Europe that's being trashed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billsfansinceday1 Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 23 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said: From what I've seen, "the neighborhood has changed!" I was in Cologne in 2015, and met a USN couple who were on leave/vacation. They told me that they had orders to stay out of Belgium, because of terrorist activity. I met them one month after the Bataclan event in Paris, security was already heightened, there was a New years eve riot in the Cologne train station, and a couple of months later significant terrorist event started in Brussels, and the area. It's a beautiful part of Europe that's being trashed! It has always been challenging. I happened to be sent to SHAPE, Belgium right after the attempt on General Haig’s life. The bomb crater was still there in the road and there were polizei with machine guns everywhere. Things are worse now, to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) On 12/31/2017 at 8:19 PM, DC Tom said: Jackson's does - his Shenandoah campaign was indisputably brilliant, and he had the best understanding of mass and maneuver as any American general in history, period. Patton was overrated. MacArthur was...complicated. He had his share of brilliance...but in a 40+ year career, you'd expect him to get something right, and it's hard not to look askance at a general whose tactics in divisional command in World War 1 were considered "bloodthirsty" by the French - the same people whose army mutinied over casualties. Heinrici? You're an idiot. Battle of Bastogne: 22,000 Americans surrounded for seven days, suffer 3000 casualties before being relieved. Battle of Stalingrad: half a million Axis fight a million and a half Russians for four months. Four out of every five people die. They still dig up skeletons at construction sites in Volgograd. That's "proper perspective." that was the one that Stonewall wasn't criminally late or could bother to get ready for or didn't sleep through? And he leaves way sooner than you think in his war.... Edited January 2, 2018 by row_33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 22 minutes ago, row_33 said: that was the one that Stonewall wasn't criminally late or could bother to get ready for or didn't sleep through? And he leaves way sooner than you think in his war.... Yes, he force-marched his army and himself up and down the Shenandoah for a season, then missed Seven Days when he collapsed from exhaustion, after marching 600 miles and fighting and winning the battles of Front Royal, Winchester, Cross Keys, and Port Republic in two weeks, against four different Union commands, outnumbered 3-1. Compare that to the immensely talented and famous pool of Canadian military leaders in history... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 On 12/31/2017 at 7:19 PM, DC Tom said: Jackson's does - his Shenandoah campaign was indisputably brilliant, and he had the best understanding of mass and maneuver as any American general in history, period. Patton was overrated. MacArthur was...complicated. He had his share of brilliance...but in a 40+ year career, you'd expect him to get something right, and it's hard not to look askance at a general whose tactics in divisional command in World War 1 were considered "bloodthirsty" by the French - the same people whose army mutinied over casualties. Heinrici? You're an idiot. Battle of Bastogne: 22,000 Americans surrounded for seven days, suffer 3000 casualties before being relieved. Battle of Stalingrad: half a million Axis fight a million and a half Russians for four months. Four out of every five people die. They still dig up skeletons at construction sites in Volgograd. That's "proper perspective." So what you're saying is, that on a scale of 1 to Rorke's drift, the Bulge is about a 9 and Stalingrad is a 14.5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 On December 31, 2017 at 8:19 PM, DC Tom said: Jackson's does - his Shenandoah campaign was indisputably brilliant, and he had the best understanding of mass and maneuver as any American general in history, period. Patton was overrated. MacArthur was...complicated. He had his share of brilliance...but in a 40+ year career, you'd expect him to get something right, and it's hard not to look askance at a general whose tactics in divisional command in World War 1 were considered "bloodthirsty" by the French - the same people whose army mutinied over casualties. Heinrici? You're an idiot. Battle of Bastogne: 22,000 Americans surrounded for seven days, suffer 3000 casualties before being relieved. Battle of Stalingrad: half a million Axis fight a million and a half Russians for four months. Four out of every five people die. They still dig up skeletons at construction sites in Volgograd. That's "proper perspective." Boy DC Tom really has a hard on for Tom Jackson; maybe b/c he was named after him or some similar bull ****? He's way overrated, but Americans tend to over dramatize anything American, like our Civil War which, in its entirety, wouldn't have ranked in the top 10 bad events of the war on the Ostfront, 1941-1945. Gettysburg? Antietam? Pick your poison; these are hailed in American circles as events of epic bloodshed. These are minor skirmishes compared to, say, the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916 when the British army alone took nearly 60,000 casualties including 20,000 dead. By the Spring of 1943, with the bulk of the worst fighting yet to come, von Mannstein estimated the German army had killed or captured 6 million Soviet troops. When the smoke cleared, new estimates put Soviet deaths around 15,000,000....with at least another 10 million civilian deaths. These are deaths, not casualties. 8 in 10 German casualties in WWII stemmed from fighting on the Ostfront fighting the Soviet Union. Nevermind D-Day! June of 1944 saw the start of Operation Bagration, when the Russians nearly annihilated the entirety of Heeresgruppe Mitte. Something like 350,000 German soldiers killed or captured in about 3 weeks of horrific fighting...opening up the door the Russians would march through to get to Berlin, nearly a year later. Americans don't even know what the hell I'm talking about. But America "won the war" on June 6, 1944, when about 4,500 Americans died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 7 minutes ago, Fadingpain said: Boy DC Tom really has a hard on for Tom Jackson; maybe b/c he was named after him or some similar bull ****? He's way overrated, but Americans tend to over dramatize anything American, like our Civil War which, in its entirety, wouldn't have ranked in the top 10 bad events of the war on the Ostfront, 1941-1945. Gettysburg? Antietam? Pick your poison; these are hailed in American circles as events of epic bloodshed. These are minor skirmishes compared to, say, the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916 when the British army alone took nearly 60,000 casualties including 20,000 dead. By the Spring of 1943, with the bulk of the worst fighting yet to come, von Mannstein estimated the German army had killed or captured 6 million Soviet troops. When the smoke cleared, new estimates put Soviet deaths around 15,000,000....with at least another 10 million civilian deaths. These are deaths, not casualties. 8 in 10 German casualties in WWII stemmed from fighting on the Ostfront fighting the Soviet Union. Nevermind D-Day! June of 1944 saw the start of Operation Bagration, when the Russians nearly annihilated the entirety of Heeresgruppe Mitte. Something like 350,000 German soldiers killed or captured in about 3 weeks of horrific fighting...opening up the door the Russians would march through to get to Berlin, nearly a year later. Americans don't even know what the hell I'm talking about. But America "won the war" on June 6, 1944, when about 4,500 Americans died. You lauded Henirici, and you're complaining that I'm overrating a general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 1/2/2018 at 5:24 PM, Fadingpain said: Boy DC Tom really has a hard on for Tom Jackson; maybe b/c he was named after him or some similar bull ****? He's way overrated, but Americans tend to over dramatize anything American, like our Civil War which, in its entirety, wouldn't have ranked in the top 10 bad events of the war on the Ostfront, 1941-1945. Gettysburg? Antietam? Pick your poison; these are hailed in American circles as events of epic bloodshed. These are minor skirmishes compared to, say, the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916 when the British army alone took nearly 60,000 casualties including 20,000 dead. By the Spring of 1943, with the bulk of the worst fighting yet to come, von Mannstein estimated the German army had killed or captured 6 million Soviet troops. When the smoke cleared, new estimates put Soviet deaths around 15,000,000....with at least another 10 million civilian deaths. These are deaths, not casualties. 8 in 10 German casualties in WWII stemmed from fighting on the Ostfront fighting the Soviet Union. Nevermind D-Day! June of 1944 saw the start of Operation Bagration, when the Russians nearly annihilated the entirety of Heeresgruppe Mitte. Something like 350,000 German soldiers killed or captured in about 3 weeks of horrific fighting...opening up the door the Russians would march through to get to Berlin, nearly a year later. Americans don't even know what the hell I'm talking about. But America "won the war" on June 6, 1944, when about 4,500 Americans died. The difference is that those were our countrymen - family members and friends. It is okay to hold them in high regard for their willingness to die for the cause. This is America after all. Patriotism is a good thing - well, at least in some people's eyes. Those who studied WWII know that the Russians are largely responsible for the ultimate German defeat and suffered far greater casualties. Still doesn't mean we should honor our own troops any less. Just as I am sure Canadians and Australians honor their dead and proudly acknowledge the part they played in winning it even though their numbers were much smaller than American deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 1/2/2018 at 5:24 PM, Fadingpain said: Boy DC Tom really has a hard on for Tom Jackson; maybe b/c he was named after him or some similar bull ****? He's way overrated, but Americans tend to over dramatize anything American, like our Civil War which, in its entirety, wouldn't have ranked in the top 10 bad events of the war on the Ostfront, 1941-1945. Gettysburg? Antietam? Pick your poison; these are hailed in American circles as events of epic bloodshed. These are minor skirmishes compared to, say, the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916 when the British army alone took nearly 60,000 casualties including 20,000 dead. By the Spring of 1943, with the bulk of the worst fighting yet to come, von Mannstein estimated the German army had killed or captured 6 million Soviet troops. When the smoke cleared, new estimates put Soviet deaths around 15,000,000....with at least another 10 million civilian deaths. These are deaths, not casualties. 8 in 10 German casualties in WWII stemmed from fighting on the Ostfront fighting the Soviet Union. Nevermind D-Day! June of 1944 saw the start of Operation Bagration, when the Russians nearly annihilated the entirety of Heeresgruppe Mitte. Something like 350,000 German soldiers killed or captured in about 3 weeks of horrific fighting...opening up the door the Russians would march through to get to Berlin, nearly a year later. Americans don't even know what the hell I'm talking about. But America "won the war" on June 6, 1944, when about 4,500 Americans died. I think American AND Soviet production won the war, forget the generals. Russia would never have survived with out limitless man power and a surprising industrial productivity that turned out tons of tanks, airplanes (il-2, most produced plane of the war) and arms. Of course the US produced even more. The axis just could not hold out that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 12/31/2017 at 11:14 AM, Billsfansinceday1 said: I just finished a book about The Battle of the Bulge. I would bet some of our fathers and grandfathers were in that heroic fight to the death 73 years ago today in the freezing, snowy Ardennes. Greatest Generation to be sure. ? Have one friend still alive who was there. (He is pushing 90) He was a green recruit at the time - saw his first piece of action in the Battle of the Bulge. Shot twice - minor wounds. Still has one of the bullets - wears it as a good luck charm. Hearing him describe what it was like is bone chilling. So many great people risked, and many lost, their lives for us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 On 1/2/2018 at 12:43 PM, DC Tom said: Yes, he force-marched his army and himself up and down the Shenandoah for a season, then missed Seven Days when he collapsed from exhaustion, after marching 600 miles and fighting and winning the battles of Front Royal, Winchester, Cross Keys, and Port Republic in two weeks, against four different Union commands, outnumbered 3-1. Compare that to the immensely talented and famous pool of Canadian military leaders in history... He didn't miss the seven days, he was there, asleep in the saddle and just a hinderence to the whole operation. He was back in form for defeating a confused Union army at second bull run. He was great and lucky rolling up the Union Xl corp at Chancellorsville where guys from Buffalo (Wiedrich's Battery) fought. That unit later defended cemetery hill On 12/31/2017 at 4:51 PM, Buffalo716 said: My grandfather left Germany as a child and came to America. He enlisted at 16 under an alias as he was too young and they didn't like taking 1st generation Germans best generation for sure My grandfather did also! Was in military in WW1 but I don't know much about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Tiberius said: He didn't miss the seven days, he was there, asleep in the saddle and just a hinderence to the whole operation. He was back in form for defeating a confused Union army at second bull run. He was great and lucky rolling up the Union Xl corp at Chancellorsville where guys from Buffalo (Wiedrich's Battery) fought. That unit later defended cemetery hill My grandfather did also! Was in military in WW1 but I don't know much about him. They are all heroes! A lot of Germans fought against the fatherland in WW1 and 2 they are all heroes in my book and can command great respect 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv's Neighbor Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 1 hour ago, PolishDave said: The difference is that those were our countrymen - family members and friends. It is okay to hold them in high regard for their willingness to die for the cause. This is America after all. Patriotism is a good thing - well, at least in some people's eyes. Those who studied WWII know that the Russians are largely responsible for the ultimate German defeat and suffered far greater casualties. Still doesn't mean we should honor our own troops any less. Just as I am sure Canadians and Australians honor their dead and proudly acknowledge the part they played in winning it even though their numbers were much smaller than American deaths. That's very true and they really hated each other. Visited Dachau a couple years ago. It's about :40 E of Munich. Russia has an Orthodox shrine built there remembering their troops. The guide said no Russians usually died in the gas chamber. That was because as soon as they arrived, they were shot in the head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, Marv's Neighbor said: That's very true and they really hated each other. Visited Dachau a couple years ago. It's about :40 E of Munich. Russia has an Orthodox shrine built there remembering their troops. The guide said no Russians usually died in the gas chamber. That was because as soon as they arrived, they were shot in the head! No Jews died in the gas chamber at Dachau, either. It wasn't an extermination camp. Executions were by firing squad or hanging. There's actually no evidence that the gas chamber at Dachau was ever used to kill anyone. The few prisoners at Dachau who were gassed were transported to the Aktion T4 facility in Linz. And most Russians didn't end up in concentration camps, either. They were either sent to special "Russenlager" (which, unbelievably, were worse than the concentration camps), or just killed in situ. Except for forced labor, Nazi Germany generally didn't transport prisoners west from Russia, to avoid "polluting German soil." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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