Thank You Two Bills Drive, Good Riddance BBMB and Their Mods

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

  

Yeah.  I'd agree with that and the ratio of knowledgeable posters to horrible posters is definitely better on this site.  I don't mind trolls as long as they're good at it.  The best and funniest troll poster in all my time there was Jay Fiedler.

 

We lost a lot of knowledgeable posters who didn't move here when BBMB shut down.   WhateverHappenedtoLarry, who was a Falcons fan, posted often at BBMB because he said it was the best football discussion he found anywhere.  The guy really knew his stuff, and he knew the Bills, too.  

 

And people complain about JM2009.  I used to argue with him a lot, and he'd make me angry occasionally, but he knew his stuff, too.   Really good insights, and he could back up what he thought with good data.  

 

Problem at BBMB was that you had to be willing to put up with a lot of BS while you were there, so over time some good posters left.  

 

One thing that was really useful about BBMB was that for whatever reason some people thought it was cool to be the first person to post news about the Bills.   The result was that BBMB was the best place to go for news about the Bills.   It didn't matter where the news broke first - ESPN, NFL.com, one of the networks, Buffalo News, Twitter - wherever it broke first, it showed up almost immediately on BBMB.   I never looked anywhere else for news.   Personally, I never understood why it mattered to be first to BBMB with the news, but enough people cared about it that it was a very useful news source.  

[dgrochester55]

I was a BBMB refugee.  I loved the board for the most part but it went downhill really fast in the last few months.   Many good posters would "disappear" and towards the end it was Kellyto83td starting the same exact "don't resign Tyrod"  thread multiple times a day, 2/3 of other threads started by one other member and bickering with no substance.    I never had a personal run in with the mods but found it strange how some posters disappeared for almost nothing while others clearly trolled and/or personally attacked people daily without any consequence.   It seemed like some players/coaches/staff were not allowed to be criticized while it was open season on others every day.    Very inconsistent mods towards the end. 

 

This board has less posting but better overall quality.   I've done more lurking than posting here(less than 200 posts in 10 months) but have enjoyed the experience.  Glad to be here and hoping we get in the playoffs today.   Maybe the closing of the BMBB was needed to break the playoff curse. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by dgrochester55

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Like this site.  And liked BBMB.  Was on there for years without a single infraction.

 

When  you signed up for either they gave you rules.  Follow the rules and you were fine there and fine here

That's not the case for everyone.  I was perma banned there because some guy was going thread to thread stalking and harassing me.  I reported it every time and continually asked the poster to stop harassing me.  All the loser mod did was tell me to ignore him.  He was a mod buddy so nothing happened to him and he was allowed to continue posting.  Yet, I was banned just because the mod was tired of me reporting him.  At the time I had no infractions or anything.  I went from completely clean to being perma banned in one day because a mod buddy was harassing me.

 

The mods there were mostly jerks on a power trip.  Not all of them, but some of them.  It only takes one bad apple to ruin it.  I wont mention names because it doesn't matter anymore.  I only write this at all to show you that one persons experience is not everyones experience.  I was on that board for years with no problems.  One day ruined it all for me and I was the one being harassed.  Of course, it was easy to rejoin with a new user name there and I did so.  Didn't have a single problem again until they shut the board down.  The same guy that had been harassing me was later banned by a different mod for doing the same thing to someone else.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Scott7975

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Thank you for the kind words!

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Sweats said:

 

The problem was the ever-changing interpretation of the CoC by the mods.

 

It seriously got to the point where members didn't even actually know what the rules were anymore cause the mods were trying to interpret the rules as to the way they saw it and the way they interpreted the CoC.

 

The thing about this is that a message board is a community, and the community has a personality.   The personality changes over time as the population changes.   Posters tend to come and go, and the mix of people, opinions and personalities change.   So life on the message board changes, and the actual personality and appeal of the place changes. 

 

The personality is controlled somewhat by moderation, because the mods shape how people behave based on the rules they write and how they enforce those rules.   Beyond that, the quality of the moderation depends on the leadership the mods get.   Here, as I understand it, there's essentially one owner and senior moderator, and he runs it the way he wants.   You can like how he does it or not, and you can have opinions about how he does it, but one thing is certain - you get consistency.   He may change the rules over time as issues arise, but his personal philosophy of what this place ought to look like is consistent.   The result is that posters learn over time what is permissible behavior and what isn't.   The rules don't change.

 

At BBMB you didn't have that.   As I understand it, Wyo wrote the CofC at the request of the Bills.  I guess the Bills didn't like how things were going in the early 2000s and they came to Wyo and maybe a couple of other people who either were mods then or informal leaders and told them generally what they wanted.   Then Wyo wrote the CofC, largely to capture the Bills' concerns.  That was in 2003 or 4 or 5.  Other than a little tinkering here or there, the CofC didn't change after that.   However, the mods changed.   If there weren't enough mods to cover the various forums, some senior mods would ask a veteran posted if he or she wanted to be a mod.  If the answer was yes, then they'd recommend to the Bills that that person get mod authority, and the Bills did it.  The Bills didn't know who these people were they were appointing, and the Bills didn't give them any training or guidance.  The mods were on their own.

 

The result of this was that over time you had people becoming mods who interpreted the CofC however they wanted, and no one was supervising them.  The Bills certainly weren't paying attention, and there was no senior mod who was shaping enforcement policy.   Mods didn't overrule each other.   So moderation became really inconsistent; I let lots of stuff go, and other mods hammered people for silly little things that were pointless.   They had their reasons, some of which made sense even if their enforcement didn't.   

 

And worst of all, the Bills didn't stand behind the mods.   The Bills wouldn't give the mods power to block addresses, so bad actors who got banned would come back, literally in minutes, with a new screen name.   They could register with bogus email addresses.   Mods were chasing bad guys all day long.   

 

The consequence was that there was no consistency in who was posting or how the place was being run.   It was chaotic.  And in that environment, some mods became, in my mind, arbitrary and dogmatic.   They created operating rules in their heads that guided them, and from the posters' point of view it was unfair.  For some people it WAS unfair.  But most people went there from day to day, talked about the Bills, had a little fun and left.   That's why so many people went there for so long.  

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Like this site.  And liked BBMB.  Was on there for years without a single infraction.

 

When  you signed up for either they gave you rules.  Follow the rules and you were fine there and fine here

 

....agree...sure there were one or two BBMB MODS that thought they were Iranian mullahs........I had a few infractions and actually got to know those MODS better through PM's....they resurfaced elsewhere and said "hope there are no hard feelings"......two of them want to come here on a regular basis but won't just to avoid confrontations and reprisal threads......

[Billsfansinceday1]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

The thing about this is that a message board is a community, and the community has a personality.   The personality changes over time as the population changes.   Posters tend to come and go, and the mix of people, opinions and personalities change.   So life on the message board changes, and the actual personality and appeal of the place changes. 

 

The personality is controlled somewhat by moderation, because the mods shape how people behave based on the rules they write and how they enforce those rules.   Beyond that, the quality of the moderation depends on the leadership the mods get.   Here, as I understand it, there's essentially one owner and senior moderator, and he runs it the way he wants.   You can like how he does it or not, and you can have opinions about how he does it, but one thing is certain - you get consistency.   He may change the rules over time as issues arise, but his personal philosophy of what this place ought to look like is consistent.   The result is that posters learn over time what is permissible behavior and what isn't.   The rules don't change.

 

At BBMB you didn't have that.   As I understand it, Wyo wrote the CofC at the request of the Bills.  I guess the Bills didn't like how things were going in the early 2000s and they came to Wyo and maybe a couple of other people who either were mods then or informal leaders and told them generally what they wanted.   Then Wyo wrote the CofC, largely to capture the Bills' concerns.  That was in 2003 or 4 or 5.  Other than a little tinkering here or there, the CofC didn't change after that.   However, the mods changed.   If there weren't enough mods to cover the various forums, some senior mods would ask a veteran posted if he or she wanted to be a mod.  If the answer was yes, then they'd recommend to the Bills that that person get mod authority, and the Bills did it.  The Bills didn't know who these people were they were appointing, and the Bills didn't give them any training or guidance.  The mods were on their own.

 

The result of this was that over time you had people becoming mods who interpreted the CofC however they wanted, and no one was supervising them.  The Bills certainly weren't paying attention, and there was no senior mod who was shaping enforcement policy.   Mods didn't overrule each other.   So moderation became really inconsistent; I let lots of stuff go, and other mods hammered people for silly little things that were pointless.   They had their reasons, some of which made sense even if their enforcement didn't.   

 

And worst of all, the Bills didn't stand behind the mods.   The Bills wouldn't give the mods power to block addresses, so bad actors who got banned would come back, literally in minutes, with a new screen name.   They could register with bogus email addresses.   Mods were chasing bad guys all day long.   

 

The consequence was that there was no consistency in who was posting or how the place was being run.   It was chaotic.  And in that environment, some mods became, in my mind, arbitrary and dogmatic.   They created operating rules in their heads that guided them, and from the posters' point of view it was unfair.  For some people it WAS unfair.  But most people went there from day to day, talked about the Bills, had a little fun and left.   That's why so many people went there for so long.  

Excellent summary, Shaw.  Like you, I am very comfortable here and enjoy the good discussions, as I did on the BBMB.  I enjoy the more relaxed atmosphere here and agree the mods do a great job.

 

i don’t think that many posters understand that adherence to the COC was what allowed the BBMB to survive for many years with several thousand good posters who never received infractions.  

[Golden*Wheels]

I loved the BBMB. Great place full of mostly great folks. Had lots of fun conversations, both Bills and NON Bills related. I'm gonna pour one out tonight for all my homies from the real hood.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

12 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

I loved the BBMB. Great place full of mostly great folks. Had lots of fun conversations, both Bills and NON Bills related. I'm gonna pour one out tonight for all my homies from the real hood.

 

 

....and good 'ol "Wheels" was one helluva contributor.......Dubenion lives on......

[Jay_Fixit]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

We lost a lot of knowledgeable posters who didn't move here when BBMB shut down.   WhateverHappenedtoLarry, who was a Falcons fan, posted often at BBMB because he said it was the best football discussion he found anywhere.  The guy really knew his stuff, and he knew the Bills, too.  

 

And people complain about JM2009.  I used to argue with him a lot, and he'd make me angry occasionally, but he knew his stuff, too.   Really good insights, and he could back up what he thought with good data.  

 

Problem at BBMB was that you had to be willing to put up with a lot of BS while you were there, so over time some good posters left.  

 

One thing that was really useful about BBMB was that for whatever reason some people thought it was cool to be the first person to post news about the Bills.   The result was that BBMB was the best place to go for news about the Bills.   It didn't matter where the news broke first - ESPN, NFL.com, one of the networks, Buffalo News, Twitter - wherever it broke first, it showed up almost immediately on BBMB.   I never looked anywhere else for news.   Personally, I never understood why it mattered to be first to BBMB with the news, but enough people cared about it that it was a very useful news source.  

DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry.

 

And yes, he knew his stuff. Not compared to someone like me, but he was good stuff.

[Shaw66]

26 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

I loved the BBMB. Great place full of mostly great folks. Had lots of fun conversations, both Bills and NON Bills related. I'm gonna pour one out tonight for all my homies from the real hood.

Hey, Wheels, don't see you around here much.  Family keeping you busy?

[Rico]

3 hours ago, joesixpack said:

The mod staff here experienced addition by subtraction . Much better than it was.

Amen to that. I personally never had any problems with them, but the scene is much cooler now that the over-zealous ones are gone.

[Golden*Wheels]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Hey, Wheels, don't see you around here much.  Family keeping you busy?

 

Yes but--I have to say I'm also just not up for getting into a new board. This place is very nice, don't get me wrong. I like this board a lot. But I did my tours on BBMB and I'm kinda just meh about the whole scene now. I liek to see my old virtual friends though, it's nice to share an old in joke or an old fight!

 

I have this weird theory that maybe the BBMB had to die for the Bills to make the playoffs! Let's see what happens today!

Edited December 31, 2017 by Golden*Wheels

[ToGoGo]

Try suggesting the games are fixed and see how long the thread lasts. 

[T&C]

Just now, Golden*Wheels said:

 

Yes but--I have to say I'm also just not up for getting into a new board. This place is very nice, don't get me wrong. I like this board a lot. But I did my tours on BBMB and I'm kinda just meh about the whole scene now.

 

I have this weird theory that maybe the BBMB had to die for the Bills to make the playoffs! Let's see what happens today!

Good to see you Wheels... hope all is well. There are a couple of good boards out there, this being one of them. Different rules or whatever but a lot of the same people.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

 

Yes but--I have to say I'm also just not up for getting into a new board. This place is very nice, don't get me wrong. I like this board a lot. But I did my tours on BBMB and I'm kinda just meh about the whole scene now. I liek to see my old virtual friends though, it's nice to share an old in joke or an old fight!

 

I have this weird theory that maybe the BBMB had to die for the Bills to make the playoffs! Let's see what happens today!

 

...gotta admit though 'Wheels it was rough sledding when BBMB folded and the pigeon stained "Red Carpet" was rolled out here by some TBD members for us "refugees, boat people and lepers".......hats off to SDS and the TBD MODS for putting that nonsense to bed as quickly as possible.......

Edited December 31, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Billsfansinceday1]

29 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry.

 

And yes, he knew his stuff. Not compared to someone like me, but he was good stuff.

I also wish Soda Popinski had migrated here.  He was a great contributor for football and fishing.

[BadLandsMeanie]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

The thing about this is that a message board is a community, and the community has a personality.   The personality changes over time as the population changes.   Posters tend to come and go, and the mix of people, opinions and personalities change.   So life on the message board changes, and the actual personality and appeal of the place changes. 

 

The personality is controlled somewhat by moderation, because the mods shape how people behave based on the rules they write and how they enforce those rules.   Beyond that, the quality of the moderation depends on the leadership the mods get.   Here, as I understand it, there's essentially one owner and senior moderator, and he runs it the way he wants.   You can like how he does it or not, and you can have opinions about how he does it, but one thing is certain - you get consistency.   He may change the rules over time as issues arise, but his personal philosophy of what this place ought to look like is consistent.   The result is that posters learn over time what is permissible behavior and what isn't.   The rules don't change.

 

At BBMB you didn't have that.   As I understand it, Wyo wrote the CofC at the request of the Bills.  I guess the Bills didn't like how things were going in the early 2000s and they came to Wyo and maybe a couple of other people who either were mods then or informal leaders and told them generally what they wanted.   Then Wyo wrote the CofC, largely to capture the Bills' concerns.  That was in 2003 or 4 or 5.  Other than a little tinkering here or there, the CofC didn't change after that.   However, the mods changed.   If there weren't enough mods to cover the various forums, some senior mods would ask a veteran posted if he or she wanted to be a mod.  If the answer was yes, then they'd recommend to the Bills that that person get mod authority, and the Bills did it.  The Bills didn't know who these people were they were appointing, and the Bills didn't give them any training or guidance.  The mods were on their own.

 

The result of this was that over time you had people becoming mods who interpreted the CofC however they wanted, and no one was supervising them.  The Bills certainly weren't paying attention, and there was no senior mod who was shaping enforcement policy.   Mods didn't overrule each other.   So moderation became really inconsistent; I let lots of stuff go, and other mods hammered people for silly little things that were pointless.   They had their reasons, some of which made sense even if their enforcement didn't.   

 

And worst of all, the Bills didn't stand behind the mods.   The Bills wouldn't give the mods power to block addresses, so bad actors who got banned would come back, literally in minutes, with a new screen name.   They could register with bogus email addresses.   Mods were chasing bad guys all day long.   

 

The consequence was that there was no consistency in who was posting or how the place was being run.   It was chaotic.  And in that environment, some mods became, in my mind, arbitrary and dogmatic.   They created operating rules in their heads that guided them, and from the posters' point of view it was unfair.  For some people it WAS unfair.  But most people went there from day to day, talked about the Bills, had a little fun and left.   That's why so many people went there for so long.  

 This is exactly true.

 

 

 

The Buffalo Bills Organization were responsible for however good or bad that message board was. And nobody else. They had the authority and it was what they made it.

 

 

Think about this for a minute it is very interesting to me.

 

The press said and the team denied, that the Bills front office was dysfunctional had no clear management structure and a lack of accountability.

 

The message board was an exact picture of that.

 

Dysfunctional? Yes indeedy.

 

Management structure? No one in charge and the Bills, who had final say,  paid no attention.

 

Lack of accountability? The Bills board had many problems, for which the Bills blamed the users.

 

It fits perfect as a window into the Bills organization.

 

 

Next, the new regime comes and what do they do? Get rid if it.

 

And that, again, is a perfect synopsis of what the new team does. 

 

But here is the question moving forward. The new regime has shown it will solve old problems by getting rid of them. It seems to have helped.

 

But they have not yet been faced with new problems. And they have not really problem solved anything. Anyone can just fire or cut or trade problem people. Anybody can just pull the plug on a message board.

 

But can they manage and get more out of people, instead of just getting rid of them? That remains to be seen.

 

[Green Lightning]

21 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

 

I rag on mods.     

 

Among others.?

 

That said, I think Dunkirk Don is warming up to you.

[Sweats]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

The thing about this is that a message board is a community, and the community has a personality.   The personality changes over time as the population changes.   Posters tend to come and go, and the mix of people, opinions and personalities change.   So life on the message board changes, and the actual personality and appeal of the place changes. 

 

The personality is controlled somewhat by moderation, because the mods shape how people behave based on the rules they write and how they enforce those rules.   Beyond that, the quality of the moderation depends on the leadership the mods get.   Here, as I understand it, there's essentially one owner and senior moderator, and he runs it the way he wants.   You can like how he does it or not, and you can have opinions about how he does it, but one thing is certain - you get consistency.   He may change the rules over time as issues arise, but his personal philosophy of what this place ought to look like is consistent.   The result is that posters learn over time what is permissible behavior and what isn't.   The rules don't change.

 

At BBMB you didn't have that.   As I understand it, Wyo wrote the CofC at the request of the Bills.  I guess the Bills didn't like how things were going in the early 2000s and they came to Wyo and maybe a couple of other people who either were mods then or informal leaders and told them generally what they wanted.   Then Wyo wrote the CofC, largely to capture the Bills' concerns.  That was in 2003 or 4 or 5.  Other than a little tinkering here or there, the CofC didn't change after that.   However, the mods changed.   If there weren't enough mods to cover the various forums, some senior mods would ask a veteran posted if he or she wanted to be a mod.  If the answer was yes, then they'd recommend to the Bills that that person get mod authority, and the Bills did it.  The Bills didn't know who these people were they were appointing, and the Bills didn't give them any training or guidance.  The mods were on their own.

 

The result of this was that over time you had people becoming mods who interpreted the CofC however they wanted, and no one was supervising them.  The Bills certainly weren't paying attention, and there was no senior mod who was shaping enforcement policy.   Mods didn't overrule each other.   So moderation became really inconsistent; I let lots of stuff go, and other mods hammered people for silly little things that were pointless.   They had their reasons, some of which made sense even if their enforcement didn't.   

 

And worst of all, the Bills didn't stand behind the mods.   The Bills wouldn't give the mods power to block addresses, so bad actors who got banned would come back, literally in minutes, with a new screen name.   They could register with bogus email addresses.   Mods were chasing bad guys all day long.   

 

The consequence was that there was no consistency in who was posting or how the place was being run.   It was chaotic.  And in that environment, some mods became, in my mind, arbitrary and dogmatic.   They created operating rules in their heads that guided them, and from the posters' point of view it was unfair.  For some people it WAS unfair.  But most people went there from day to day, talked about the Bills, had a little fun and left.   That's why so many people went there for so long.  

 

 

 

 

You know, Shaw, you and i may have not agreed too much in the past and we may have had our differences, but your explanation of the "system" at least makes sense to me and it's an explanation that i can at least understand and accept.

 

If members of the BBMB had have known this in the past, it may have made things at least a little bit tolerable in understanding what the hell was going on over there.

As i mentioned in another post, to me it felt like if "you weren't a part of the solution, then you were a part of the problem" and i don't deny that alot of times i took the BBMB and the CoC to the limit, whereupon you get so frustrated with the inconsistencies, the bickering, the fighting, etc. that you just kind of get sucked into the whole scenario and see how far you can take it..........maybe even push the limit a little and see how far under peoples skin you can go.

Honestly, i felt bad for T&C (i pushed him to the limit a few times). I had nothing against the guy. I just think that a lot of times, he felt the brunt of my frustrations with the BBMB and from what i saw, he wasn't one to back down, which created 2 guys not getting along. I never took it personally........i honestly had nothing against the mods at the BBMB at all, but all i asked was some consistency right across the board. 

For the most part, the BBMB was a great place, but as you know, it had its fair share of days of pure bedlam and chaos.

 

Thank you for your explanation.