Can someone help me with the 4th down reversal?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Now that I look more carefully, I think you're correct.   First, it's clear that his elbows bend and he pulls the ball back.  But the instant before his elbows bend you can see his helmet moving backward.   So I'd have to say that based on the rule, he gets his forward progress, which was the farthest point he reached with the ball.  If the Bills hadn't pulled him back, he wouldn't get his forward progress.  

but even then, the issue is still "is it conclusive?"  and getting back to TPegs point if you have to look at it 30 times they are kind of missing the point about "conclusive". someone made a call on a close play, and it could have  been called either way, and both sides coukd complain they got screwed. When it happens 2x in one game, it's fair to question whether or not it's bad luck or something nefarious. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[LABILLBACKER]

It just doesn't matter anymore if a large group of owners doesn't call foul on the NFL for blatantly favoring the anointed NE Patriots. It's been going on  since the Tuck rule game. The Patriots are Gold to the NFL as long as Brady suits up.

[cba fan]

OK you win.

 

In my WR EX the WR never escaped the grasp he just pulled back and defender had not yet tackled him. Do you spot it at the 40 or the 37?

 

the 4th and 1 is inconclusive. The guy had a finger over the end of the ball. It may have never made the part of the white line that we do not know where on that white line is the actual line to gain as they never spotted and measured.

Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan

[Rochesterfan]

28 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

This is wrong. Look at the replay in this thread again. Regardless of the poor view from that side re: the knee being down or not, it's clear as day that his body was being pulled back by defenders after he lunged forward.  That is, he didn't retreat on his own. Just as importantly, there is no point in that long portion of the play where he is free of a defender's grasp. The play you described had a player escaping the grasp - hence its lack of relevance to this debate. 

 

 

I agree - as much as I hate it - I thought they got it correct in the game and the video shows it.

 

If he had not been getting tackled and dove and brought it back. - there could be an argument, but he extends and you see him still extended and his body is moving backwards (grasp and control) - then he bring the ball back to him.  

 

I think they got it right and because of the view it was easy to see he is passed the line.   

 

The WR example given has no bearing because it is a totally different situation and if a guy on his feet breaks control and runs backward they mark where he is down, but if he is controlled and breaks free, but the defenders maintain contact working him backwards-many time they still give him forward progress to the original spot.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, cba fan said:

OK you win.

 

In my WR EX the WR never escaped the grasp he just pulled back and defender had not yet tackled him. Do you spot it at the 40 or the 37?

 

the 4th and 1 is inconclusive.

No, unfortunately it isn't inconclusive.   At the instant the ball reached the farthest point, you can see his head going backward and then the ball starting to move backward.   You also can see a Bill who looks to be pulling him back.   The rule is clear - when he's moved backward by the opponent, he gets his forward progress, and his forward progress was at or over the line to gain.   First down. 

[cba fan]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

No, unfortunately it isn't inconclusive.   At the instant the ball reached the farthest point, you can see his head going backward and then the ball starting to move backward.   You also can see a Bill who looks to be pulling him back.   The rule is clear - when he's moved backward by the opponent, he gets his forward progress, and his forward progress was at or over the line to gain.   First down. 

The guy had a finger over the end of the ball. It may have never made the part of the white line that we do not know where on that white line is the actual line to gain as they never spotted and measured.

Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan

[Nick the Greek]

When he lunged forward, someone should have knocked the ball out of his hands. You are really exposing yourself lunging like that. 

[row_33]

They just call whatever they want to with replay

 

why bother arguing or trying to come up logic or application of the rules?

 

 

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, cba fan said:

The guy had a finger over the end of the ball. It may have never made the part of the white line that we do not know where on that white line is the actual line to gain as they never spotted and measured.

Fair enough.  I'll give you that at least they were supposed to have spotted and measured.   But I think it was pretty clear the ball had gotten to the line to gain. 

1 minute ago, Idandria said:

When he lunged forward, someone should have knocked the ball out of his hands. You are really exposing yourself lunging like that. 

Yes, but somebody had to be in position and had to react very quickly.  The ball wasn't out there very long.  

[westerndecline]

26 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

It just doesn't matter anymore if a large group of owners doesn't call foul on the NFL for blatantly favoring the anointed NE Patriots. It's been going on  since the Tuck rule game. The Patriots are Gold to the NFL as long as Brady suits up.

Here's something even more nefarious and darker what if the whole Brady becoming a great player was plan from the get-go after 9/11 the Patriots and Tom Brady win multiple Super Bowls...

 

Sounds silly but really makes you think especially when Brady was nothing more than a solid Big Ten quarterback who was constantly pushed by Drew Henson at Michigan

Looking back on that 2001 Super Bowl that New England Patriots team had no f****** business beating that Rams team no f****** business

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

No, unfortunately it isn't inconclusive.   At the instant the ball reached the farthest point, you can see his head going backward and then the ball starting to move backward.   You also can see a Bill who looks to be pulling him back.   The rule is clear - when he's moved backward by the opponent, he gets his forward progress, and his forward progress was at or over the line to gain.   First down. 

Me it's conclusive that the Buffalo Bills player is actually pulling them back or is he is his head just going back as a natural response because he's pulling the ball back on his own the very fact that were talking about it means it's inconclusive and stand is called

[KW95 - JA17]

24 minutes ago, westerndecline said:

Here's something even more nefarious and darker what if the whole Brady becoming a great player was plan from the get-go after 9/11 the Patriots and Tom Brady win multiple Super Bowls...

 

Sounds silly but really makes you think especially when Brady was nothing more than a solid Big Ten quarterback who was constantly pushed by Drew Henson at Michigan

Looking back on that 2001 Super Bowl that New England Patriots team had no f****** business beating that Rams team no f****** business

Me it's conclusive that the Buffalo Bills player is actually pulling them back or is he is his head just going back as a natural response because he's pulling the ball back on his own the very fact that were talking about it means it's inconclusive and stand is called

 

My dad says the same thing about all sports...That its all politically related. I told him kindly to shut the hell up.  You do realize that Pats got their break just like Giants had a miracle Cath, the Seattle player had a miracle catch and then the interception and  last year Julio Jones also had his miracle catch as well on the sideline that iced the game.

 

I had a friend who played in the NHL. Ask him if he's 2 shot knees and shoulders were all politically induced.

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, westerndecline said:

 

Me it's conclusive that the Buffalo Bills player is actually pulling them back or is he is his head just going back as a natural response because he's pulling the ball back on his own the very fact that were talking about it means it's inconclusive and stand is called

I don't think his head going back that far is a "natural response."  His entired torso had to move, and since he was lying top of other players he didn't have his legs under him to push himself back.  And why would he be pushing himself back, anyway.   He was pulled back at exactly the right time; split second sooner and his arms don't get out there, split second later and he would have pulled the ball back first, in which case his forward progress would have been behind the line to gain.   

 

Patriots luck.  

[westerndecline]

4 minutes ago, KW95 said:

 

My dad says the same thing about all sports...That its all politically related. I told him kindly to shut the hell up.  You do realize that Pats got their break just like Giants had a miracle Cath, the Seattle player had a miracle catch and then the interception and  last year Julio Jones also had his miracle catch as well on the sideline that iced the game.

 

I had a friend who played in the NHL. Ask him if he's 2 shot knees and shoulders were all politically induced.

I'm consistent to this isn't just about bashing the Patriots that 2007 Super Bowl was total b******* Patriots should have blown them out

[KW95 - JA17]

Can someone help me with the 4th down reversal?

Well, it was 4rth and 1 and the Pats went for it.  The Bills stopped them short but the Pats challenged the call.  Upon further review, the Refs decided he reached the first down marker.

 

Thats about it.

[Chris66]

Just watching Turning Point on Nfl Network. They just showed that play. As Lewis is falling forward with ball extended, he is being pulled back looks like # 22 Lewis then lands on Thuney. So forward progress was given.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Chris66

[peterpan]

10 hours ago, CLTbills said:

The bigger issue to me was this. 

 

In no replay that CBS showed did any camera angle show the first down sticks. They didn't even place the ball and freaking measure. Just automatically awarded them the first down.

More evidence the fix was in!!

6 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

If he's being touched (and he was in the grasp of a defender throughout the process), then the forward progress is where the ball got to at its forward most point before he comes down. Which makes it a first down.  Let's do a thought experiment: how would you have reacted if the Bills were on the offense there and Shady wasn't given the first down? I personally would have been apoplectic.

Sorry but you are incorrect, that's not the rules. 

 

I would have been fine with a no first down for the bills, as it wasn't a first down.  I know the rules, and that's that. 

[Chris66]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

You call that 'indisputable'?

Actually yeah once you time up this angle with cbs's angle

[Iron Maiden]

The 4th down reversal was a good call.....I will go to my grave thinking we got robbed on the KB TD......

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, westerndecline said:

 

Me it's conclusive that the Buffalo Bills player is actually pulling them back or is he is his head just going back as a natural response because he's pulling the ball back on his own the very fact that were talking about it means it's inconclusive and stand is called

 

 

If you watch it - he starts to move backwards and both arms are still extended.  It is not really that inconclusive- the forward progress was correct and the shot goes right down the yard marker and you can easily see the first down marker is right at the front of the white line and the ball gets to and just passed the white.

 

What I do not know is if that is the official sticks or if the official sticks were on the other side.  If those were the official sticks - then I can see the first down call without measuring.  My only other issue is knowing if we are at a slight angle, but I believe the view from the other side looked just about the same - so I think he put forth amazing effort and got to the mark and I do not think this was any kind of call to help the Pats win - It was a great effort by an individual player.

[row_33]

Playing Madden the other day and during an official’s replay a box popped up onscreen asking if the Pats were playing on O or D, no particular reason.