Tech Help Designing Sump Pump PLC

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

 

Like a hot momma parked in your basement plugging in and out your pump?

 

Now that is cougar control!!!

 

You can probably find one of those on Craigslist!

[BuffaloBill]

11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

When I saw "cougar," in the URL, I have to admit ... I was a little hopeful it was something better.

 

 

At his age?  Where is he going to find cougar action?  The nursing home?

[Cripple Creek]

I'm afraid that I don't understand this thread. Someone whose profession is moving water is coming here asking for advice on how to move water.  You are either trolling for more carp with a baited hook or you, Cletus and the boys have really !@#$ed up the lock system in Illinois. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

8 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I'm afraid that I don't understand this thread. Someone whose profession is moving water is coming here asking for advice on how to move water.  You are either trolling for more carp with a baited hook or you, Cletus and the boys have really !@#$ed up the lock system in Illinois. 

LoL... Locks are mostly gravity controlled!  Well at least the locks in the Western Hemisphere.  Gravity moves the water, there are no pumps for the cycling of the navigational locks.

Don't be an idiot...

[BringBackFergy]

48 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

I'm afraid that I don't understand this thread. Someone whose profession is moving water is coming here asking for advice on how to move water.  You are either trolling for more carp with a baited hook or you, Cletus and the boys have really !@#$ed up the lock system in Illinois. 

You raise a great point. For a guy who’s in charge of raising and lowering water levels for 5000 ton barges, I find it funny that he’s seeking advice on how to lower/remove 5 gallons of rain water. I’ll give him a bit more time before I consider this a true trolling. 

[Just Jack]

You need to throw some relays and timers into the equation. I don’t have time to figure it out though. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

30 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

You raise a great point. For a guy who’s in charge of raising and lowering water levels for 5000 ton barges, I find it funny that he’s seeking advice on how to lower/remove 5 gallons of rain water. I’ll give him a bit more time before I consider this a true trolling. 

 

Again... That's done without pumps.  Locking 10,000 tons is all gravity fed, valves, etc... Endless supply of water. Like flushing a toilet. Besides, the technology we use there is from the 1930s.  Everything is mechanical, no solid state electronics that make the machinery run.

 

What I need help with is with the modern PLC stuff.

 

Anyway... When it storms, it's like 10,000 gallons of water (see log in original post).

38 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

You need to throw some relays and timers into the equation. I don’t have time to figure it out though. 

Thanks... I was hoping you would post.  Thanks for being serious. No worries.  I am on right path custom building a switch controller controlled though PLC.

 

Looking into NG's link... That company could prob steer me in right direction even if one of their products doesn't fit the application perfectly.

 

Again... Everything at work is mechanical and pre-1960s.

[Cripple Creek]

1 hour ago, BringBackFergy said:

You raise a great point. For a guy who’s in charge of raising and lowering water levels for 5000 ton barges, I find it funny that he’s seeking advice on how to lower/remove 5 gallons of rain water. I’ll give him a bit more time before I consider this a true trolling. 

Move 5000 tons, what do you get? 

Another troll post and deeper in muck

St Peter don't you call me cause I can't go

I owe my soul to the asian carp

 

 

It's a massive troll job and on Christmas Eve no less. Some have no shame.

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Move 5000 tons, what do you get? 

Another troll post and deeper in muck

St Peter don't you call me cause I can't go

I owe my soul to the asian carp

 

 

It's a massive troll job and on Christmas Eve no less. Some have no shame.

Wow... People are sure jaded.

[Cripple Creek]

 

47 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Wow... People are sure jaded.

Sorry Snowflake.

[ExiledInIllinois]

37 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

 

Sorry Snowflake.

Merry Christmas to you & all!  Hope the Holidays are treating everybody well... Getting a white Christmas here... 

 

... At least I am off work till tomorrow on Christmas. 

[Greybeard]

    What brand of PLC did you plan to use?  You say you have no experience with this, so should I assume you don't know?

I could help you with the programming but it is not difficult.  Probably more difficult to sort out the hardware.  You could also maybe program it with an arduino computer.  

    I would suggest you start by sorting out the hardware.

 

   If you do a "do it yourself system"  you would have to also sort out the user interface.  Lights and switches or a panel display.

 

   I also know a guy who works on sewage treatment systems, so I could get some info on hardware from him.  I may be seeing him Thursday night.

 

[Greybeard]

       I went back and read your post.  If you want this done correctly you have to write a spec.  A spec describes exactly what you want.  To give the engineer an idea of what he is working with, fill out the following:

 

What is the depth of the sump?

What level do you want it to turn on?

What is the location of the turn on switch?

When do you want it to turn off?

What is the location of the turn off switch?

I assume when it rains you have a switch higher than the normal turn off switch.  What level is it?

How do you sense when it is dry or raining?  A water sensor on your roof? (joking)

   I would suggest that in your programming you set up a timer which when the pump turns on starts the timer and if it again hits the turn on switch within a certain time, the program decides the water is coming in fast, so it should wait for the second turn on switch on the next cycle.  If the timer times out before it again hits the first turn on switch, it starts when it hits the switch.

 

After you sort this out, you can move on to the backup system as your plc will have to maintain power to do its job, so it is likely to be wired into the battery along with the inverter.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Greybeard

[mead107]

Call an expert 

[ExiledInIllinois]

33 minutes ago, Greybeard said:

    What brand of PLC did you plan to use?  You say you have no experience with this, so should I assume you don't know?

I could help you with the programming but it is not difficult.  Probably more difficult to sort out the hardware.  You could also maybe program it with an arduino computer.  

    I would suggest you start by sorting out the hardware.

 

   If you do a "do it yourself system"  you would have to also sort out the user interface.  Lights and switches or a panel display.

 

   I also know a guy who works on sewage treatment systems, so I could get some info on hardware from him.  I may be seeing him Thursday night.

 

Thanks Greybeard!

 

I have no idea where to begin! Okay, well I have a little idea, not sure what hardware to get.  This is my pump controller(s) in pic below.  This is tied to a set of probes that turns pump on/off and when water stays high (doesn't go down) on ON probe, triggers high water audible alarm.  One controller will be low.  And one high.  When water starts rushing in too fast... I want the PLC to switch to other controller.  The other controller is set higher.  Now when water slows down for that controller... Say a bunch of hours... Then it would go back to lower controller.

 

Height of water, depth of pit, etc... Is all governed by these two independent controllers... Just gotta have it switch to #2 (high) control when it storms and pump is running every 30 seconds... Then switch back to low electronic "float" when storm abates.

 

When it switches... I need it to kill power to the off lower (only) controller... Since water will make a powered controller's electronics switch on and high water alarm will trigger since water will not be getting off that probe (other controller picking up water).

 

When the storm (high) is working... I don't need it to drain whole pit... On/Off height for both controllers is fixed.

 

Here is the lower controller the second electronic "float" is exactly like this.  So, these two controllers need to be plugged into some kind of enclosure where I can adjust time between the two and when in "storm mode" with second controller, kill power to first (again, so high water alarm does not sound).

 

Here is my lower control.  When it rains it goes off, "short cycles" pump every 30 seconds, pumps for 5 second.  When that happens... I want PLC to turn this off and switch to other controller that sits higher... That second controller can always stay live (again high water alarm)...

 

 

Not sure if I am explaining this well... Trying to explain in a redundant way.  I just have NO idea what products to get.  I can do all the mechanical assembly... Enclouse, two outlets on enclosure... The enclosure plugged into this outlet in pic... That's easy part.  It's the stuff in between and some way to adjust its timing has me new to this game.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

27 minutes ago, mead107 said:

Call an expert 

I made my garage door opener Bluetooth soldering a simple transistor to a basic Samsung Bluetooth headset (HM1100).

 

https://bluemate.com

 

Built my own in 2012.

 

I never have to buy a remote again, and is controlled by my phone.  It's unhackable too because only way to pair device (HM1100) is to be standing in garage on ladder with device.

 

I did that 5 years ago.... Working well!

 

I can handle this... With garage door there was a tutorial online... The pump thing I am doing is truly custom...

 

Again... Just not sure where to begin with hardware, user interface.... 

 

[Greybeard]

   I forgot to ask, how much do you expect to spend on hardware for this?   If you are going the PLC route, Automationdirect is probably the cheapest you can get.  I have never used them.  I do Rockwell automation (Allen Bradley) and they are not cheap.

   Also, if you wanted to get away with the cheapest solution, you might be able to add a couple of hardwired relays and keep your existing controllers, just turn them off and on (enable and disable them) using the timer concept I wrote in my second reply.

 

  On a side note, when I was typing my second reply, the banner popped up that you were responding to my first reply, but when I went to look at your reply it wasn't there.  I suppose the BB system may respond when you start to reply, not submit reply, which would explain why it was not there when I went to look.  Would not have thought it would work that way.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Greybeard

[mead107]

I still think you should make it deeper 

[Greybeard]

3 minutes ago, mead107 said:

I still think you should make it deeper 

 

    That is what "she" said.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, Greybeard said:

       I went back and read your post.  If you want this done correctly you have to write a spec.  A spec describes exactly what you want.  To give the engineer an idea of what he is working with, fill out the following:

 

What is the depth of the sump?

What level do you want it to turn on?

What is the location of the turn on switch?

When do you want it to turn off?

What is the location of the turn off switch?

I assume when it rains you have a switch higher than the normal turn off switch.  What level is it?

How do you sense when it is dry or raining?  A water sensor on your roof? (joking)

   I would suggest that in your programming you set up a timer which when the pump turns on starts the timer and if it again hits the turn on switch within a certain time, the program decides the water is coming in fast, so it should wait for the second turn on switch on the next cycle.  If the timer times out before it again hits the first turn on switch, it starts when it hits the switch.

 

After you sort this out, you can move on to the backup system as your plc will have to maintain power to do its job, so it is likely to be wired into the battery along with the inverter.

 

Sorry I just got the notice you replied so I am sending this now.

 

 

Awesome!  I think am following...  That last sentence bolded, do you mean: "it starts when it hits the SECOND (high) ON switch?" But there is a pesky high water audible alarm that will trigger on the first controller if water stays in contact with the ON probe.

 

Side note... It would be sweet if I could extend the second controllers OFF probe all the way to bottom of pit... But I can't, these controllers have fixed on/off height.

 

I could get two different controllers that have independent hi-lo probes... It's a different company (HydroCheck). That would be sweet.  When the high ON went off... It could drain whole pit (and most of pipe arounf house acting as a "reservoir."

 

Use two of these controllers, controlled by the PLC:

 

https://www.amazon.com/HC6000-Hi-Lo-Controller-Float-Switch/dp/B006AU4L4U

 

Beauty of these is, they warn you when motor is going bad:

 

13 minutes ago, mead107 said:

I still think you should make it deeper 

I have been mulling that idea over many years!

 

Inlet into pit is only 9" off bottom and pit is 18" round... Way too shallow, small for the clay soil, high water table!

 

I water my front lawn and drain tile sends to pump in back of basement!

 

New house in 1996... 

13 minutes ago, Greybeard said:

   I forgot to ask, how much do you expect to spend on hardware for this?   If you are going the PLC route, Automationdirect is probably the cheapest you can get.  I have never used them.  I do Rockwell automation (Allen Bradley) and they are not cheap.

   Also, if you wanted to get away with the cheapest solution, you might be able to add a couple of hardwired relays and keep your existing controllers, just turn them off and on (enable and disable them) using the timer concept I wrote in my second reply.

 

  On a side note, when I was typing my second reply, the banner popped up that you were responding to my first reply, but when I went to look at your reply it wasn't there.  I suppose the BB system may respond when you start to reply, not submit reply, which would explain why it was not there when I went to look.  Would not have thought it would work that way.

I was thinking... Under $300... 

 

I am I dreaming?

 

0h... It may have been me reacting to a post.  New Board is neat, but notifications drive me wild some times!

 

 

EDIT:  I was hoping to use existing controllers... Since they have high water alarms... And one's I posted above have motor detection... If windings start going bad, controller will send out alarm... Warning you that pump is failing.

Edited December 26, 2017 by ExiledInIllinois