Zay Jones right now is a bust

[Mountain Man]

On 18/12/2017 at 4:31 AM, billsfan11 said:

I deleted my post because I meant to say it's way too early too tell.

 

But it's pretty inarguable That kupp has better hands than zay this year 

 

 

And it's pretty inarguable that Kupp had WORSE hands than Zay LAST year.

 

All this topic proves is declaring rookies busts is nonsense

[Ol Dirty B]

On 12/18/2017 at 12:12 AM, BigDingus said:

 

They don't need 3... Not in today's NFL where the game & rules are setup around making the passing game easier and more dominant. DBs don't have half the tools available to them they did in the past, as now they'd get flagged constantly. QB's are protected more than ever before. Schemes and formations have changed more towards a pro-spread system. QB's take most of their snaps out of shotgun now. 

Seriously, WR's have it far easier now than even 10-15 years ago. They can come out & make an impact right away. And you may have to learn to deal with the speed of the NFL, the timing, the routes, etc. but the one thing you don't have to relearn is how to catch a ball. And Zay Jones has been awful at that.

And yes, the announcers said he had one of the worst reception rates in the league along with highest drop rate. That's not ok for even a rookie, and especially not a highly touted 2nd round pick. He should get 1 more year, but 3 is too much. If you can't figure out how to catch a ball in 32 games, you're not going to. Moulds wasn't dropping balls. Moulds wasn't targeted as many times a Zay. Moulds wasn't an instant starter. Moulds didn't play in an era where the passing game thrives like it does today.

 

Wait, You're putting things into historical context and displaying knowledge of the game.

 

Ignore him!

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

 

49ers had a TD called back due to holding by Glass.

 

If that's the kind of points you are going to make, and you'll stand by it, please tell me. Because I'll put you on ignore. That's not worth reading. 

[BillsFan130]

6 hours ago, Mountain Man said:

 

And it's pretty inarguable that Kupp had WORSE hands than Zay LAST year.

 

All this topic proves is declaring rookies busts is nonsense

? College is a massive difference compared to the NFL.

 

I never said he sss a bust 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Why?  Because you say so?  These official stats compare every WR in league with same criteria. Sorry if they dont fit your narrative 

 

Are drops an "official" NFL stat?  I didn't think so, any more than total QBR.  There's a lot of subjectivity - someone watches every play, and decides whether or not the ball was "catchable" (as I recall, it has to hit the WR hands within a certain distance of his torso).  They're a stat, sure, but not official NFL stats.

Here's the thing though.   Watching every game with top WR, you see them routinely go far beyond that - jump for balls, dive for balls, make contested catches where they win.
That's what you need of a #1 or even #2 guy, and it goes far beyond the drops or the catch percentage.
 

22 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Do you mean all season long Zay only has 2 drops? Or you mean in yesterday's game alone?

 

All season, per the stat that's being kept (by ESPN?)

 

 

21 hours ago, jrober38 said:

I'm not totally giving up on him, I just don't see much reason for optimism.

He looks like just a guy out there. He's not big, he's not fast, he doesn't really separate. 

Where's the upside? His skill set doesn't suggest he'll be anything more than a #3 or #4 receiver.

I don't see many starter traits. 

 

I think that's the bottom line.  These days, we expect 1st and 2nd round guys to contribute at a high level their first season.  We haven't seen that level from Jones yet.  It's not to say we won't - he's been thrust into a #1 role he clearly was not ready for, and some guys do take time - but drops aside, he isn't making the plays a good NFL receiver has to make.

 

20 hours ago, billsfan11 said:

Just shows why stats can be so overrated. That 3rd and 8 play probably doesn't go as a drop but it should. A NFL receiver has to make that play. Jones has had way too many 50/50 balls where it has gone on the wrong side of the 50/50

 

Yes, exactly.  Drops per se aren't really the issue.

[BillsFan130]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Are drops an "official" NFL stat?  I didn't think so, any more than total QBR.  There's a lot of subjectivity - someone watches every play, and decides whether or not the ball was "catchable" (as I recall, it has to hit the WR hands within a certain distance of his torso).  They're a stat, sure, but not official NFL stats.

Here's the thing though.   Watching every game with top WR, you see them routinely go far beyond that - jump for balls, dive for balls, make contested catches where they win.
That's what you need of a #1 or even #2 guy, and it goes far beyond the drops or the catch percentage.
 

 

All season, per the stat that's being kept (by ESPN?)

 

 

 

I think that's the bottom line.  These days, we expect 1st and 2nd round guys to contribute at a high level their first season.  We haven't seen that level from Jones yet.  It's not to say we won't - he's been thrust into a #1 role he clearly was not ready for, and some guys do take time - but drops aside, he isn't making the plays a good NFL receiver has to make.

 

 

Yes, exactly.  Drops per se aren't really the issue.

Ya jones has to be better at all levels.

 

Smith schuster on Sunday a guy who was drafted after Zay. Catches a 4 yard drag route and makes a 70 yard play out of it. That little pass had nothing to do with Big Ben as I'm sure a lot of people will be quick to point out.

 

It was a guy who just made a big play by himself. I don't remember zay making one great play all year

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, McBean said:

Zay has definitely struggled a bit this season. With that being said, he’s a rookie and will get better. Not worried about him.

 

I'm not going to label him a bust now only because it frequently takes 3 years for WRs to master the pro game. 

 

Ideally, Jones would have had a good veteran WR to watch and help him out early on.  Who did he have?  Watkins was gone after the first preseason game.  Matthews was hurt after his first practice.  Benjamin didn't arrive until almost Halloween, and he's been mostly hurt.  Thomas didn't arrive until the season had started, and he was signed as a FA.  The other Bills WRs weren't NFL caliber WRs so how could they give him many pointers?

 

FTR, should Jones really have been drafted as high as he was or was this ANOTHER case of the Bills drafting a rookie to be "just as good but cheaper" than a good veteran they let walk away because they didn't want to pay him market rate ... and getting bitten in the arse once again?    Only time will tell ...

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

17 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

That "data" is from 2016 and if you look at 2015, same data, from the same site guess who Taylor is ahead of?

 

22	Tyrod Taylor	BUF	67	380	17.63%
23	Tom Brady	NE	111	624	17.79%

That data from 16  did not include that horrible Zay Jones dropping all of those passes!!    It must have been Sammy and the other WR's dropping them all. 

 

 

2015 - Was that when Brady lost pretty much all his WR's and Gronk for 6 or more games? 

 

Not to mention double the pass attempts by Tom and intentional groundings or the 50 something career 4th QTR comebacks.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[Fan in Chicago]

4 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

I'm not going to label him a bust now only because it frequently takes 3 years for WRs to master the pro game. 

 

 

You are being too generous. Mastery may come later, but by the second year if a WR from the first 3 rounds isnt showing more than a modicum of competency, it is highly unlikely he will ever be able to turn it around. 

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

You are being too generous. Mastery may come later, but by the second year if a WR from the first 3 rounds isnt showing more than a modicum of competency, it is highly unlikely he will ever be able to turn it around. 

It’s not asking much for him to not be the worst receiver of the last handful of seasons. The bar isn’t very high. I think that we all still believe he may be a player but he’s been awful so far and there’s no way around it. 74 out of 74 qualifying receivers.

[Maine-iac]

28 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

That data from 16  did not include that horrible Zay Jones dropping all of those passes!!    It must have been Sammy and the other WR's dropping them all. 

 

 

2015 - Was that when Brady lost pretty much all his WR's and Gronk for 6 or more games? 

 

Not to mention double the pass attempts by Tom and intentional groundings or the 50 something career 4th QTR comebacks.

 

I have no  idea what you are even trying to say in this mess.  I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or don't actually realize Zay wasn't playing in 2016.  Are you giving Brady a pass for injured receivers in 2015?  How does Brady get a pass for playing with scrubs but no one else?  The stat is done in percentages so how would having more pass attempts make a difference?  Remember this came from your source.

[Fan in Chicago]

21 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s not asking much for him to not be the worst receiver of the last handful of seasons. The bar isn’t very high. I think that we all still believe he may be a player but he’s been awful so far and there’s no way around it. 74 out of 74 qualifying receivers.

Especially considering we picked him in Round 2 (even ignoring the trade-up). All we need him to do is catch the balls which drop in his hands. Forget diving and reaching and wrestling them away.  The drop this past weekend was particularly bad as it wasnt that great a coverage, was thrown well and it went through his hands. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

I have no  idea what you are even trying to say in this mess.  I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or don't actually realize Zay wasn't playing in 2016.  Are you giving Brady a pass for injured receivers in 2015?  How does Brady get a pass for playing with scrubs but no one else?  The stat is done in percentages so how would having more pass attempts make a difference?  Remember this came from your source.

Maybe I mistook last nights conversations.   I went on a troll when I shouldn't have.     If you were or may have said Zay sucks  then 

1. I  believe that we do have WR talent when they are healthy beyond Zay. 
2. TT's  uncatchable 2017 passes were in part a result of Zay sucking.
3. I posted TT's 2016 uncatchable  pass #'s to eliminate Zay from the equation

 

 

[reddogblitz]

13 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

If that's the kind of points you are going to make, and you'll stand by it, please tell me. Because I'll put you on ignore. That's not worth reading. 

 

I will probably going to continue to post facts (A 49er TD WAS called back due to PI on Goodwin).  If you can't handle it, do whatever you have to do.

 

-18-TEN 22(4:00) (Shotgun) 10-J.Garoppolo pass short right to 81-T.Taylor to TEN 2 for 20 yards (59-W.Woodyard). FUMBLES (59-W.Woodyard), recovered by SF-75-L.Tomlinson at TEN 0. TOUCHDOWN NULLIFIED by Penalty. PENALTY on SF-11-M.Goodwin, Offensive Pass Interference, 10 yards, enforced at TEN 22 - No Play.

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2017121710/2017/REG15/Titans@49ers?icampaign=scoreStrip-globalNav-2017121710#menu=gameinfo|contentId%3A0ap3000000894821&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

 

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

It’s not asking much for him to not be the worst receiver of the last handful of seasons. The bar isn’t very high. I think that we all still believe he may be a player but he’s been awful so far and there’s no way around it. 74 out of 74 qualifying receivers.

This is exactly it. Is he a bust yet? No. Is he disappointing? 100 percent and it's almost impossible to justify that he's having even an average/ mediocre year.

 

It's been very bad so far

Edited December 19, 2017 by billsfan11

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I would almost say any WR that has Taylor throwing him the ball would be considered a bust. If Taylor goes to Denver the WR's on Denver will be down graded in FFL. Taylor stinks and needs to be purged.

Goodwin putting up numbers, Woods putting up numbers, Watkins putting up numbers. The common denominator is when WR's get away from Taylor they are suddenly putting up better numbers. Our current WR core is in the same boat, I'll wait until we sign a QB that can pass the football before I judge the guy catching it.

[Elite Poster]

You are right 

 

People called Sammy a bust when he was posting 1k 7+ tds. 

 

Zay was my fav guy coming out of the draft but it seems like he's more interested in his Superstar brand than his Superstar play.

 

Will any of the Zay > Sammy guys from the preseason appear? Probably not. Not how our board rolls. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Elite Poster

[SaviorPeterman]

I don't think he's a bust, but it's weird how he's regressed again after seemingly figuring things out midseason.

 

But in the end it's still unfair to truly evaluate Zay Jones or any WR on this roster with TT as the QB. Even Jordan Matthews made some very telling statements recently suggesting that the WR's weren't the problem. He's likely not going to be back with the Bills next year but he's also posted much better numbers before coming to Buffalo and having TT as his primary QB.

[Maine-iac]

8 minutes ago, SaviorPeterman said:

I don't think he's a bust, but it's weird how he's regressed again after seemingly figuring things out midseason.

 

But in the end it's still unfair to truly evaluate Zay Jones or any WR on this roster with TT as the QB. Even Jordan Matthews made some very telling statements recently suggesting that the WR's weren't the problem. He's likely not going to be back with the Bills next year but he's also posted much better numbers before coming to Buffalo and having TT as his primary QB.

What does TT throwing the ball have to do with droping balls that hit you dead in the hands?  I get your agenda and I'm not even arguing good/not good as far as TT but no matter the QB Jones has more highlight reel drops than catches.  I'm not even calling him a bust.  It's not uncommon for rookie WR's to struggle.  That said if he's hurting the team bench him and start someone who can catch.  I think Zay will be alright but play him in the slot or when someone needs a breather and when you see it on the field let him play more.

[Kirby Jackson]

Just compare him to the other Bills receivers and you’ll see how poorly he is playing. He has 25 catches on 70 targets!! It’s by far the worst in the league. The other Bills receivers haven’t had the same issues. It’s a Zay problem. He will get better I think but we don’t need to make excuses for him.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Zay is a problem this season.  

 

Who was the problem last season when 20% of Taylors passes were uncatchable?

 

I posted the stats for people to see. 

If people refuse to read them and accept the data then the fault lies with the reader not accepting hard data.