jrober38 Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, Rob's House said: You speak very confidently on a topic you know very little about. People often settle false claims because it is often far less expensive than litigating and they avoid bad press. An accusation alone can be devestating, especially when it's high profile. People don't wait for and weigh the evidence. They make judgments based on their prejudices. And defamation cases are difficult to win because you have the burden of proving a negative, litigation is expensive, and even if you win you may never collect if the respondent doesn't have much in the way of assets. Clearing your name should be invaluable, yet most of these men never try to do that. I don't think that's by accident.
Rob's House Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt applies to criminal cases. No one is sending any of these guys to jail. Unfortunately for them, most of them are facing multiple accusers and they have no defense. These cases, if they even get to civil court, just need to show that something is more likely true than not true, which is how most opinions are formed. There are many many men sitting in jail right now for crimes they didn't commit. This goes deeper than high-profile celebrity cases. It's very common for couples going through a divorce to make up allegations of abuse to gain leverage. There are many other examples of jilted lovers seeking revenge.
jrober38 Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: What actions? The actions no one has been able to prove occurred? Again, demonstrate to me how an individual proves themselves innocent of charges of inappropriate sexual behavior the accuser says happened last week. Now do the same for charges of behavior 30 years old. There's no one size fits all. If you didn't do something, you should be able to convince people of that. Just because something can't be proved, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Edited December 12, 2017 by jrober38
Rob's House Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 Just now, jrober38 said: Clearing your name should be invaluable, yet most of these men never try to do that. I don't think that's by accident. Better to keep your name from ever being tarnished by paying off the accuser before it goes public.
jrober38 Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 Just now, Rob's House said: Better to keep your name from ever being tarnished by paying off the accuser before it goes public. Sorry but it's 2017 and nothing stays swept under the rug for long.
teef Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rob's House said: You speak very confidently on a topic you know very little about. People often settle false claims because it is often far less expensive than litigating and they avoid bad press. An accusation alone can be devestating, especially when it's high profile. People don't wait for and weigh the evidence. They make judgments based on their prejudices. And defamation cases are difficult to win because you have the burden of proving a negative, litigation is expensive, and even if you win you may never collect if the respondent doesn't have much in the way of assets. this is the only thing that really scares me. one angry accusation and your career can be ruined. is it likely? no, but it's still a possibility. i have a daughter, so i want her to work in a completely safe work environment. i understand why this is happening, but it still makes me nervous. i have a staff made up of all women, and often times i see women at my office after hours by myself. for the first time in my life that make me nervous. if i hired a new staff member that didn't work out, and she was upset, what's to stop her from making those claims? whether or not i'm innocent, once it's out in the community, my name is tarnished. i love my staff and really don't see this as an immediate issue, but it's something that now hangs over my head.
Rob's House Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 Just now, jrober38 said: There's no one size fits all. If you didn't do something, you should be able to convince people of that. Just because something can't be proved, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Unfortunately it's not that easy. I know of a guy who did 5 years before his accuser recanted. Think of all the wrongful convictions that have been overturned by DNA evidence.
SoCal Deek Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rob's House said: There are many many men sitting in jail right now for crimes they didn't commit. This goes deeper than high-profile celebrity cases. It's very common for couples going through a divorce to make up allegations of abuse to gain leverage. There are many other examples of jilted lovers seeking revenge. Case in point...in the current Alabama Senate race where one of the accusers has ADMITTED to forging the yearbook inscription that she claimed was from the alleged harasser! Does anyone need more evidence than that?
jrober38 Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rob's House said: There are many many men sitting in jail right now for crimes they didn't commit. This goes deeper than high-profile celebrity cases. It's very common for couples going through a divorce to make up allegations of abuse to gain leverage. There are many other examples of jilted lovers seeking revenge. Sure there are. The legal system isn't perfect, but as I've said many times in this thread no one is threatening to send any of these guys to jail. For the most part, all of the stories in the news are about men who have had a long history involving numerous accusers. Does anyone really think they're all lying?
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 Just now, jrober38 said: There's no one size fits all. If you didn't do something, you should be able to convince people of that. Just because something can't be proved, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Now you're all over the place. You're stating that "the accuser deserves to be believed", offer no method by which the accused would be able to prove their innocence, and then claim that if you didn't do something you should be able to convince people; all while pushing a standard which has no use for evidence, and telling people to believe the accuser. Would you care for some mustard with that pretzel logic?
T-Bomb Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, teef said: this is the only thing that really scares me. one angry accusation and your career can be ruined. is it likely? no, but it's still a possibility. i have a daughter, so i want her to work in a completely safe work environment. i understand why this is happening, but it still makes me nervous. i have a staff made up of all women, and often times i see women at my office after hours by myself. for the first time in my life that make me nervous. if i hired a new staff member that didn't work out, and she was upset, what's to stop her from making those claims? whether or not i'm innocent, once it's out in the community, my name is tarnished. i love my staff and really don't see this as an immediate issue, but it's something that now hangs over my head. It's our online, clickbait, reality TV watching society at work... Luckily I work with mostly male engineers and not a bunch of catty women.
SoCal Deek Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Sure there are. The legal system isn't perfect, but as I've said many times in this thread no one is threatening to send any of these guys to jail. For the most part, all of the stories in the news are about men who have had a long history involving numerous accusers. Does anyone really think they're all lying? It makes no difference whether they are all lying or not. The problem is that the accusers are waiting many years to come in and pounce on the accused when they feel the time is right to inflict the most damage. That too is not right...and totally unprovable.
teef Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 1 minute ago, T-Bomb said: It's our online, clickbait, reality TV watching society at work... Luckily I work with mostly male engineers and not a bunch of catty women. that's what's great about my staff. no one is catty. everyone gets along and does their job at a high level. we even just hired another team member that is working out great. still, i can't help but to think more of how i have to protect myself moving forward, even though i've never done anything remotely wrong. it's just a reality now. 1
Rob's House Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Sure there are. The legal system isn't perfect, but as I've said many times in this thread no one is threatening to send any of these guys to jail. For the most part, all of the stories in the news are about men who have had a long history involving numerous accusers. Does anyone really think they're all lying? Now you're making a different argument. You're saying based on the evidence in this case specifically you believe these particular women. That's a far removal from your previous statement that accusers should be believed.
T-Bomb Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 1 minute ago, teef said: that's what's great about my staff. no one is catty. everyone gets along and does their job at a high level. we even just hired another team member that is working out great. still, i can't help but to think more of how i have to protect myself moving forward, even though i've never done anything remotely wrong. it's just a reality now. I've always told my GF to wear a personal recording device at work because of all the **** she has to put up with, but that's probably illegal in NYS... Plus probably not a good idea when seeing patients.
Big Turk Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: That is not even remotely close to the basis for RICO laws - and most seized assets are not returned because they are either assets obtained from criminal activity or substitute assets - as determined through our legal process. or ones the police seize from normal law abiding citizens while not charging them with any crimes to pay for things in their department. But lets not let facts get in the way of the police being authorized to steal from people on a whim. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/?utm_term=.897cd1128fc9 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jeff-sessions-police-seizure-directive-cash-property-criminals-forfeitures-a7846441.html Edited December 12, 2017 by matter2003
teef Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, T-Bomb said: I've always told my GF to wear a personal recording device at work because of all the **** she has to put up with, but that's probably illegal in NYS... Plus probably not a good idea when seeing patients. i think you're right with hipaa policies in place.
jrober38 Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 Just now, SoCal Deek said: It makes no difference whether they are all lying or not. The problem is that the accusers are waiting many years to come in and pounce on the accused when they feel the time is right to inflict the most damage. That too is not right...and totally unprovable. Timing shouldn't matter because there's no right or wrong time to come forward. Obviously it would be best if it happens immediately, but in a lot of these cases people are reluctant because the initial belief is that they won't be believed. Say you're a secretary and your boss assaults you at work. There are no witnesses. Do you come forward and risk not being believed, and possibly fired from your job. Or do you just internalize it and pretend it didn't happen and live with it knowing you'll keep your job and be able to pay your bills? Some people might come forward right away, but it should be easier to see why not everyone does. Then imagine years down the road you've moved onto another job and someone else comes forward accusing the same person of wrong doing. It might seem "convenient" to come out of the shadows making accusations, but it might also seem like an easier battle to be believed for an accuser once they know someone else has experienced the same ordeal, and the two of them together are more convincing than one of them on their own. There's no right or wrong way to do these things. It's like all the Priest abuse cases from the early 2000s. Why did all those hundreds of boys stay quiet for decades? Once the whistle was blown, it was easier to come forward because there was a much greater chance of being believed.
Big Turk Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 34 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said: Not in criminal RICO cases. The burden is still on the government to prove the assets were obtained with proceeds of criminal activity. If the direct proceeds/assets are not available, then equal assets can be substituted. Even though the forfeitures, for the most part, happen on the civil side of those cases, there is still a burden that has to be met by the government. BTW: This has nothing to do with your argument regarding the presumption of innocence, which is something I wholeheartedly agree with. Not in civil forfeiture they aren't
billsfan1959 Posted December 12, 2017 Posted December 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, matter2003 said: or ones the police seize from normal law abiding citizens while not charging them with any crimes to pay for things in their department. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/?utm_term=.897cd1128fc9 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jeff-sessions-police-seizure-directive-cash-property-criminals-forfeitures-a7846441.html Those articles address forfeitures different than assets seized pusuant to RICO convictions. Just now, matter2003 said: Not in civil forfeiture they aren't When it comes to RICO convictions they are
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