BadLandsMeanie Posted December 2, 2017 Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Hi folks here come the last few shots I have from all 22. I watched mainly the first quarter or so of offense. I will say more later but for now I can tell you my main impression was the if I was offensive coordinator I would probably be drinking quite a lot. I only have two plays to show you plus a couple of extra points including an honorable mention for a Chief player. But they sum up the general idea I got from watching. On this play when watching the game, I just figured Tyrod is a bit short and the guy batted the ball down and that was it. I only have two pictures but I can show you what went on. Deonte Thompson is very open with miles of open space in front of him. (purple line). Tyrod threw the ball along the back line. The linebacker circled I red got and hand on the ball and that was that. But I noticed Richie's man got by him (red arrow) so I wanted to see why. [url=https://imgur.com/fJoV1Hm][/url] Looking at the film I saw Richie (blue arrow) was very plainly blocking to protect the purple star behind him. (blue line shows how he was guarding) So he was surprised when the chief dashed by him to get after Tyrod, because he did not expect Tyrod to be there. So now I know either Richie or Tyrod had it wrong, and that is one reason why the play failed. Either Tyrod was not where he was supposed to be. Or Richie was not blocking like he was supposed to. I don't know but look how that play lines up if Tyrod is standing near that purple star. He has a giant passing lane (yellow line) and Richie's man never got by him. Look at it from the back side. [url=https://imgur.com/JInS2u2][/url] Now I said I think this is on either Richie or Tyrod. But I think it is more on Tyrod because he at least had Richie right in front of him. He could have seen where the blocking was going. even if it was wrong. Except he didn't look. But no matter which one, it for sure isn't in Dennison. This play unfolded beautifully. Just perfect. And Thompson is even further ahead of his man than shows because the man behind him wasn't running full speed yet. So I am Dennison, my play works as perfectly as possible, I have a guy capable of doing this (100 yard kickoff return for Bears) WIDE open with a passing lane you could drive a truck through, but , the Qb doesn't use it. And I get blamed. Which is why I would drink. There were a lot of things like this in the first quarter especially. Offensive plays that unfolded like in a diagram. Excellent excellent prediction of how to exploit the defensive scheme, but somebody somewhere on the Bills offense screws up a simple task and everything is ruined. All I am saying here is after looking at what I looked at, I am a lot less sure Dennison is to blame like it seems he is. (**Snark alert** Like it seems he is to the reporters who make their living writing about football and write that he is to blame because the offense is not doing well. Which any one of us knows that. But to look and think? Not gonna happen. Good thing I do it) So as not to leave an unbalanced impression of Tyrod. He made some good throws in this game. And he got out of this, in the picture here, he got out of it, and completed a pass. [url=https://imgur.com/ZHENKXW][/url] The Kansas City linebackers were a plague the whole game. It was all 3. I think they had some good coaching it was smart stuff not just about being strong and fast. Here is the other play I just wondered about something on and tracked it down and learned a lot. This one is about the “chess game” within the game. [url=https://imgur.com/Koa2hOt][/url] Wood (blue circle) is running out to block for Cadet (Blue arrow). He can block Yellow arrow or Yellow star. He runs to get Yellow arrow, and yellow star came and dropped cadet. I asked myself why did Wood do that? Why did he run to get the man who was twice as far away? And why didn't Clay, red circle, take care of Yellow star to begin with? And it turns out Yellow star had defeated the whole play, before it began. And he did it in as simple a way as you could imagine. Follow along and see the chess game! The Bills linemen had been calling out all kinda signals before the snap. It was exciting all the pointing and getting set up. Very impressive an interesting to watch. Then they get all set to go and yellow star, who had been standing at the red X, just walked down further. That is all he did. Tight End clay is Blue arrow. [url=https://imgur.com/bvJjFb8][/url] [url=https://imgur.com/RV34VKs][/url] Now from the front view. White star is where he was, Yellow star is where he is now. They had already set the blocking assignments so Mills' man is shown by the black line. OR, Mills screwed up. As you can see if each man just took the guy on from of him, as shown by the red arrows, things shape up as manageable. But that isn't what happened. The black star is the first down and as you can see from the Blue circle, at this point it appears as the though the Chiefs are going to be completely unable to stop the Bills because there is a giant hole right in front of Cadet with ample blockers. Because the Chief inexplicably just walked away. [url=https://imgur.com/ZeRuS4U][/url] Unfortunately, Mills blocked the man on the black arrow. This cut Clay off from Yellow star. Yellow star then just hid there a second, totally free, Woods run right by him because he had no reason to believe yellow star would just come running back freely because he had 3 blockers down that way. And then back to the beginning picture, Yellow star runs up and dropped Cadet 5 yards short of what appeared to be a sure first down. [url=https://imgur.com/Koa2hOt][/url] I don't know if Mills screwed up or if the Chiefs defeated the scheme here. That then is the end of my adventures in film for now! The Chiefs linebackers did that kind of stuff all game they were a plague. I am not so sure Dennison is the problem here. I don't know if Tyrod is getting a fair shake or not. He does make some good throws. He is mobile enough to stay upright when most would not. But I can understand how an offensive coordinator would covet a QB who made less mistakes that disrupt or derail plays. Especially if it is a big play you have researched and set up with other plays. It might be the wrong decision, but I can understand it. I like watching the chess game and I personally see pretty close to none of it when just watching the game. I learned that for a play to work, most times, every single player has to do their job correctly. I think that if a team prepared so thoroughly that they knew what sort of error each opposing player was likely to make, and were well trained enough to adjust the game plan on the fly to call and execute plays that took advantage of substitutions, that they would win a lot of football games. All teams plan that stuff in advance and practice the plays they think will work. But if a team's coaching staff was extremely smart and could adjust the plays if a man goes down or rotates out, and the players were able to execute plays they had not practiced that week, I think that would be a tremendous advantage. To adjust depending on the odds that man would make the small mistake that derailed plays. And I am wondering if that doesn't describe the Patriots. Just a theory I have no idea if it is true, But I had that idea watching how a small mistake by one man ruins a whole play. Ok, last, here are props for a Chief who did a real clever thing. Just one picture. The Bills snap the ball and the guy just sort of hangs himself on Richie's (blue star) one shoulder. He didn't try to get through, this all happened in an instant. Ball snaps, boom he positions himself on Richie's shoulder. Coming up out of his stance Dawkins (green star) hit the Chief like he was supposed to [url=https://imgur.com/hZzJj0S][/url] And what happened was Dawkins hit pushed the Chief into Richie who fell down, the Chief fell down, and Dawkins tripped over them both and fell down. The Chief took out two linemen, right out of the play, right down to the ground. And I am sure he did it on purpose. It was really good football. It wasn't a block in the back you see, He was pushed. Nuttin he could do. The rascal. He is the enemy but I had to admire that one it was beautiful. Ok there you go. Edited December 2, 2017 by BadLandsMeanie 5 5
BuffaloBill Posted December 2, 2017 Posted December 2, 2017 Thank you for this. It is int resting and insightful.
The Now Moment Posted December 2, 2017 Posted December 2, 2017 Perfect example of the frustration I have with Tyord on the one play with him and richie blocking in front. Dennison doesn't get credit for a nice play call... Nice read by the way 1
Fadingpain Posted December 2, 2017 Posted December 2, 2017 This fleshes out in detail what Tyrod detractors have always said: Tyrod doesn't see the field well and his intangibles are pretty bad. He doesn't have a head for the position. He is a classic example of a guy who excels at lower levels due to his immense natural athletic talent, but when everyone on the field in the NFL is a collegiate superstar, he struggles b/c the fundamentals needed to raise his game to that level in the NFL are not there. Do scouts not see this stuff? It is not hard to see who sneaks by in college on raw talent or mismatches of talent. I would almost be wary of drafting guys like that with "too much" talent in a way, b/c it might be camouflaging what you see in a player at that level. You have to guard against the guy who sneaks by on talent b/c that disparity won't be there on an NFL field. What you want to see at the collegiate level is a guy with the raw transferrable skills to slot into an NFL system and excel, even if that player was hardly noticed at the collegiate level or was part of a losing program. How many draftees coming from Alabama these days are drafted b/c they are truly best suited to play at the NFL level, and how many are drafted simply b/c they were part of a dominant collegiate winning machine? I routinely see WRs in college, for example, rack up yardage and big catches not b/c they are exhibiting high transferable skills at the NFL level and beating a sound DB, but rather, they are succeeding simply b/c the DB is not very good and would have no hope of being drafted in the NFL. A guy who dominates against the wrong type of DBs is not necessarily as good as his stats say he is. HUGE talent disparities exist all over the world of collegiate football, even among big/good programs. I will never forget the national championship game from a few years ago, Alabama vs. Notre Dame. Notre Dame had no business being on the same field as the Alabama squad that year, despite being ranked #2 in the country at the time. They were just massively out-matched all over the field, on both sides of the ball. And that was Notre Dame! Not Podunk State U!
Boatdrinks Posted December 2, 2017 Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Nicely illustrated, but the greater point comes back to one thing. Is it smarter to design nice plays that you think will work and set up well for a QB that doesn't / can't do the things that MUST be done for the play to ultimately succeed ? Or would it be smarter to set up plays that utilize Tyrods skill set and what he does/ can do well? Dennison may be better at designing plays than he gets credit for, but he appears to lack the versatility and creativity of making an offense work WITH Taylor as the QB. That is the difference between the Roman/ Lynn offense and Dennison's. Edited December 2, 2017 by Boatdrinks 2
Lfod Posted December 2, 2017 Posted December 2, 2017 (edited) Thanks I needed this breakdown. I was really starting to loathe Dennison. Now I'm not as worried about his ability to do his job. I have been really enjoying your posts and opinions. I really enjoy when I can learn something from this board from intelligent posters. Edited December 3, 2017 by Lfod
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said: Nicely illustrated, but the greater point comes back to one thing. Is it smarter to design nice plays that you think will work and set up well for a QB that doesn't / can't do the things that MUST be done for the play to ultimately succeed ? Or would it be smarter to set up plays that utilize Tyrods skill set and what he does/ can do well? Dennison may be better at designing plays than he gets credit for, but he appears to lack the versatility and creativity of making an offense work WITH Taylor as the QB. That is the difference between the Roman/ Lynn offense and Dennison's. I can't respond to Badland's OP because I"m posting from a poor wifi connection at Hickman HS, Home of the Kewpies. Aside: their football team apparently won the Class 6 championship and I can see why. With a mascot like that, you better be tough. Thank you BLM for posting that analysis - I love that kind of stuff, and I know how long it takes. I think the Ritchie/Tyrod play likely is on Tyrod. It hearts back to a comment Whaley made about what they needed to see from Tyrod after 2015, one thing being "the throwing lanes are there, he needs to see and step into them". That said, if a pocket has been persistently collapsing, it is hard for a "gamer" QB to have faith it will hold and he should step into it. I have two comments: one is Boatdrinks does have a point about, well, Tayloring the plays. The second is regards the blocking scheme, I believe it's on tape and around the league now that the Bills OL can be flummoxed by movement just prior to the snap. And I think that is a flaw of the blocking scheme. Move-countermove-(.......). If our blocking scheme doesn't allow us to adjust to pre-snap movement, it is a problem, and this IMO was a difference between Marrone's schemes (which were probably elegant and beautifully crafted) in 2014 and Roman/Kromer's in 2015/2016. Dennison's/Castillo's may also be elegant and finely crafted, but sometimes to cope with this stuff, you need to be able to say "see the guy in front of you? Sic 'em 1
wiskibreth Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 Thanks BLM On the first play pictured. Where was the placement of the ball on the field before the snap? If it was on the left hash, that would indicate to me that Taylor dropped straight back, and Ritchie is mostly to blame, missed his block. I think it's unlikely that the play design would require Taylor to shift laterally a few feet to his right before throwing the football. If the ball was in the center of the field or right hash, then that would lead me to think that it's Taylor screw up having shuffled to that spot and put himself out of position to take advantage of that throwing lane.
Jackington Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, wiskibreth said: Thanks BLM On the first play pictured. Where was the placement of the ball on the field before the snap? If it was on the left hash, that would indicate to me that Taylor dropped straight back, and Ritchie is mostly to blame, missed his block. I think it's unlikely that the play design would require Taylor to shift laterally a few feet to his right before throwing the football. If the ball was in the center of the field or right hash, then that would lead me to think that it's Taylor screw up having shuffled to that spot and put himself out of position to take advantage of that throwing lane. Yeah, Taylor takes the snap from the left hash, waits a beat (doesn't move left right forward or backwards), and throws it. In no way is that Taylor's fault. In watching the play, Richie gets shoved inside like he's nothing and the guy just moves forward. That play is 100% on Richie. Edited December 3, 2017 by Jackington 1
Happy Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 4 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said: I am not so sure Dennison is the problem here. I don't know if Tyrod is getting a fair shake or not. He does make some good throws. He is mobile enough to stay upright when most would not. But I can understand how an offensive coordinator would covet a QB who made less mistakes that disrupt or derail plays. Especially if it is a big play you have researched and set up with other plays. It might be the wrong decision, but I can understand it. I like watching the chess game and I personally see pretty close to none of it when just watching the game. I learned that for a play to work, most times, every single player has to do their job correctly. Thanks for this analysis, looks like a tremendous amount of work. I get the gist of what you're saying regarding the players needing to make it work. But my concern is that this is happening every week. It is week 13 and it seems the players are still struggling with the offense, in particular the blocking scheme. It just seems that this years offense is last years defense. McD and Frazier simplified the defense and it is paying off. The same should be done with the offense. So looking at it that way, Dennison is the problem, like Rex was the problem last year.
John from Riverside Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 always love these from you along with your training camp reports meanie
BADOLBILZ Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 I appreciate the effort but if you want to see poor QB play then try checking Alex Smith's all-22 from the last game. It's not news that Taylor leaves some plays on the field(though that wasn't really one of them).........but given the right complementary personnel he brings a lot more extra plays.......hence the Bills leading the entire NFL in big plays offensively in both 2015 and 2016. There are worse things to do offensively than just score and not turn the ball over.
KD in CA Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 4 hours ago, Fadingpain said: Do scouts not see this stuff? It is not hard to see who sneaks by in college on raw talent or mismatches of talent. I would almost be wary of drafting guys like that with "too much" talent in a way, b/c it might be camouflaging what you see in a player at that level. You have to guard against the guy who sneaks by on talent b/c that disparity won't be there on an NFL field. Usually yes. Explains why Taylor was drafted in the 6th round and never seriously considered as a starter until the Bills were desperate. 27 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: I appreciate the effort but if you want to see poor QB play then try checking Alex Smith's all-22 from the last game. It's not news that Taylor leaves some plays on the field(though that wasn't really one of them).........but given the right complementary personnel he brings a lot more extra plays.......hence the Bills leading the entire NFL in big plays offensively in both 2015 and 2016. There are worse things to do offensively than just score and not turn the ball over. No he doesn't create more 'extra' plays than he leaves on the field with his inability to see the whole game. Not even close. And yes there are worse things than a limited QB who runs for a few first downs per game. But the point is, we've seen the ceiling and it's not high enough, even with the amazing Sammy Watkins and lots of complementary personnel. 1
BadLandsMeanie Posted December 3, 2017 Author Posted December 3, 2017 2 hours ago, wiskibreth said: Thanks BLM On the first play pictured. Where was the placement of the ball on the field before the snap? If it was on the left hash, that would indicate to me that Taylor dropped straight back, and Ritchie is mostly to blame, missed his block. I think it's unlikely that the play design would require Taylor to shift laterally a few feet to his right before throwing the football. If the ball was in the center of the field or right hash, then that would lead me to think that it's Taylor screw up having shuffled to that spot and put himself out of position to take advantage of that throwing lane. I don't remember Except it wasn't at the right hash. He would have had to move that way, BUT, it was a play action fake. so he easy could have stepped that way when pretending to hand off the ball. 1 hour ago, Jackington said: Yeah, Taylor takes the snap from the left hash, waits a beat (doesn't move left right forward or backwards), and throws it. In no way is that Taylor's fault. In watching the play, Richie gets shoved inside like he's nothing and the guy just moves forward. That play is 100% on Richie. Ok I am glad you have the video. I don't have it any more. But, when I watched it I didn't think Richie was pushed to the right. He was stepping that way to keep that guy on his left. Take another look please and see if you don't see what I mean? It may well be Richies fault to be where he is but I didn't think he was pushed there. Then watch Tyrod just stand looking towards Dawkins. Tyrod had time to glance at the line and Tyrod of all QBs has the agility to just hop over into the throwing lane. So it would have been nice if he did. See if when you watch you don't see how it could be that way.
BadLandsMeanie Posted December 3, 2017 Author Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: Thanks for this analysis, looks like a tremendous amount of work. I get the gist of what you're saying regarding the players needing to make it work. But my concern is that this is happening every week. It is week 13 and it seems the players are still struggling with the offense, in particular the blocking scheme. It just seems that this years offense is last years defense. McD and Frazier simplified the defense and it is paying off. The same should be done with the offense. So looking at it that way, Dennison is the problem, like Rex was the problem last year. Well, first let me say I am not defending Dennison. I would have to watch all the games to do that and it would take me, umm, 2 days a game times 11 games, 22 days just to have a fair idea. I am just saying that to me, it wasn't so clear as I thought it was, that Dennison sucks. Because the scripted plays at the opening of this game would have torn the Chiefs a new one, if the Players didn't screw things up repeatedly. You can blame the screw ups on coaching also though. But it kind of seemed like players fault to me. As for the defense, simple is good until teams figure it out and dismantle your simple defense. I think simple defenses are good if you have great athletes. But maybe not so good if you don't and I am not convinced we have great athletes on defense everywhere. We shall see!
Mike in Horseheads Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 Always blame the OC now 3 of them for TT's lack of field awareness. 1
BadLandsMeanie Posted December 3, 2017 Author Posted December 3, 2017 5 hours ago, BuffaloBill said: Thank you for this. It is int resting and insightful. Thanks very much for saying so. You are very welcome. 5 hours ago, Fadingpain said: This fleshes out in detail what Tyrod detractors have always said: Tyrod doesn't see the field well and his intangibles are pretty bad. He doesn't have a head for the position. He is a classic example of a guy who excels at lower levels due to his immense natural athletic talent, but when everyone on the field in the NFL is a collegiate superstar, he struggles b/c the fundamentals needed to raise his game to that level in the NFL are not there. Do scouts not see this stuff? It is not hard to see who sneaks by in college on raw talent or mismatches of talent. I would almost be wary of drafting guys like that with "too much" talent in a way, b/c it might be camouflaging what you see in a player at that level. You have to guard against the guy who sneaks by on talent b/c that disparity won't be there on an NFL field. What you want to see at the collegiate level is a guy with the raw transferrable skills to slot into an NFL system and excel, even if that player was hardly noticed at the collegiate level or was part of a losing program. How many draftees coming from Alabama these days are drafted b/c they are truly best suited to play at the NFL level, and how many are drafted simply b/c they were part of a dominant collegiate winning machine? I routinely see WRs in college, for example, rack up yardage and big catches not b/c they are exhibiting high transferable skills at the NFL level and beating a sound DB, but rather, they are succeeding simply b/c the DB is not very good and would have no hope of being drafted in the NFL. A guy who dominates against the wrong type of DBs is not necessarily as good as his stats say he is. HUGE talent disparities exist all over the world of collegiate football, even among big/good programs. I will never forget the national championship game from a few years ago, Alabama vs. Notre Dame. Notre Dame had no business being on the same field as the Alabama squad that year, despite being ranked #2 in the country at the time. They were just massively out-matched all over the field, on both sides of the ball. And that was Notre Dame! Not Podunk State U! You make Very good sense Sir. Thanks for adding the great perspective. 5 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: Nicely illustrated, but the greater point comes back to one thing. Is it smarter to design nice plays that you think will work and set up well for a QB that doesn't / can't do the things that MUST be done for the play to ultimately succeed ? Or would it be smarter to set up plays that utilize Tyrods skill set and what he does/ can do well? Dennison may be better at designing plays than he gets credit for, but he appears to lack the versatility and creativity of making an offense work WITH Taylor as the QB. That is the difference between the Roman/ Lynn offense and Dennison's. I understand you completely and even mostly agree. But I think it can be hard for these guys, some of them. I think it would be for me even. Because once they get in ahead space where the offense is a magnificently beautiful system and a work of art that can run like a well oiled machine, it is hard to give that up. It is SO cool when it works. Tyrod is more sand lot football. You got guys who can't think lightning fast and can't see all there is to be seen, but can run. It is a different thing and I can entirely understand why a coach wouldn't think it was as good. 5 hours ago, Lfod said: Thanks I needed this breakdown. I was really starting to loathe Dennison. Now I'm not as worried about his ability to do his job. I have been really enjoying your posts and opinions. I really enjoy when I can learn something from this board from intelligent posters. You are welcome. I feel better about him too. Except I don't know where they are going to come up with QB for him. It will have to be someone who can think very fast and see the field. 6 hours ago, Buffalo30 said: Perfect example of the frustration I have with Tyord on the one play with him and richie blocking in front. Dennison doesn't get credit for a nice play call... Nice read by the way Thanks very much! 1 hour ago, John from Hemet said: always love these from you along with your training camp reports meanie That's very kind of you. Thanks John! 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: I appreciate the effort but if you want to see poor QB play then try checking Alex Smith's all-22 from the last game. It's not news that Taylor leaves some plays on the field(though that wasn't really one of them).........but given the right complementary personnel he brings a lot more extra plays.......hence the Bills leading the entire NFL in big plays offensively in both 2015 and 2016. There are worse things to do offensively than just score and not turn the ball over. I mean no offense but I think stats can be cherry picked so that each of the 32 teams leads the league in something. But yes there is a lot worse that can happen. And the Bills might just get slaughtered, outright slaughtered, without Tyrod at QB next year. Because their pass protection *insert expletive*. I tel you though, and I am willing to be shown, but I can't think of 3 plays over the years where he thought fast.
BadLandsMeanie Posted December 3, 2017 Author Posted December 3, 2017 14 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said: Always blame the OC now 3 of them for TT's lack of field awareness. I think Lynnn did ok with him. But what Lynn did, and I said it then, was nearly impossible. NOBODY comes in after an OC was fired and just turns it around that same season. At least as far as I know, that is extremely rare. And now Lynn has what appears to be an offensive juggernaut running on the Chargers. I wish we coulda kept him somehow.
Theshallowcross Posted December 3, 2017 Posted December 3, 2017 Few things here and not to take anything away from your hard work but clarification is necessary. 1.) This is a concept called an RPO or run/pass option. When the play is called in it is a run play with a built in pass option. Zone read/slant flat combo. It is a play straight out of the Anthony Lynn playbook so giving Dennison credit for the design is false. Where I give Dennison credit is not letting his ego get in the way of success and calling a concept that was out of the norm for him and his system. 2.) It was in fact Incognitos inability to sustain a block against the DT (not LBer like you say above) that causes this play to not hit for a big gain to Thompson. The DT pushes Incognito into the passing window and just makes a good play by getting his hand up and knocking the ball down. With that said, it's obvious that this play isn't practiced enough because it's clearly a new wrinkle in Dennisons offense. I like Taylor as the QB of this team but he missed an opportunity to just hand the ball to Cadet for a big gain on the zone read. Regardless, the slant to Thompson was open if the DT doesn't create that interior pressure as quickly as he did. The good news is that the RPO concepts that I have been begging for are now being incorporated into the offense. With another week of practice behind them I look for the Bills to continue to adding them to the game plan on Sundays.
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