The Ultimate Bills Debate - Was Doug Whaley A Good GM?

[Happy]

7 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

You're welcome to disagree, but you'd be wrong.

We'll agree to disagree.  No point in carrying this on since you will give Whaley zero credit.

[BadLandsMeanie]

This is getting ridiculous.

 

Nix's picks were his, Whaley's were Whaleys.

 

Having poor outcomes in the draft is not just bad luck. You can't say "Oh if only a few had gone better, he would have been ok". The JOB is to have things go right. Anyone can have them go wrong. You can not sensible say that it is a bad rap and unfair to rate a GM on how his drafts go, because anybody can guess wrong.

 

No Gm I am aware of,gets to hire the head coach. They all need owner's approval. Except Bill B because he hires himself he is the GM, and Jerry Jones, because he is the owner and the GM.

 

The story with Whaley is always the same. He leads the search, he is all on board. Then when it worked out bad, it wasn't him he was only being polite.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Happy Gilmore said:

We'll agree to disagree.  No point in carrying this on since you will give Whaley zero credit.

Why would I give a GM credit for things he did before he was the GM?

 

Dennison was a decent QB coach in Baltimore.  How does that affect him today as the OC of the Bills?  Is he doing a better job as OC because of his contributions as a QB coach years ago?

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Why would I give a GM credit for things he did before he was the GM?

 

Dennison was a decent QB coach in Baltimore.  How does that affect him today as the OC of the Bills?  Is he doing a better job as OC because of his contributions as a QB coach years ago?

No one is asking you to give Whaley credit for things that happened before he was a GM.  At least give him credit for talent he brought in while he was GM, but you seem uninterested in this.

 

Dennison is plain horrible as OC.  So what if he was the QB coach in Balt at one time?

[C.Biscuit97]

He wasn't allowed to be a real GM.  I blame the Pegulas (still love them) because they picked both his coaches.  He did his best to get talent that his coaches wanted. He helped build a top 10 offense and defense during his tenure.

 

i would feel much better about SM if Whaley was the GM. I hate that SM has this much power because his talent evaluation has been pretty questionable so far.  Sammy, Dareus, and Darby = playoff team easily.

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

No one is asking you to give Whaley credit for things that happened before he was a GM.  At least give him credit for talent he brought in while he was GM, but you seem uninterested in this.

 

Dennison is plain horrible as OC.  So what if he was the QB coach in Balt at one time?

I gave him credit for Hughes and Brown and Spikes.  They were solid pieces added to a stacked roster.  Good job for him.  

 

That doesn't make him the grand architect of the 2014 defense.

[Happy]

10 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

I gave him credit for Hughes and Brown and Spikes.  They were solid pieces added to a stacked roster.  Good job for him.  

 

That doesn't make him the grand architect of the 2014 defense.

Glad to hear this.

Never said Whaley was the grand architect of the 2014 defense, just that he was more than a footnote.

[Lfod]

36 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He wasn't allowed to be a real GM.  I blame the Pegulas (still love them) because they picked both his coaches.  He did his best to get talent that his coaches wanted. He helped build a top 10 offense and defense during his tenure.

 

i would feel much better about SM if Whaley was the GM. I hate that SM has this much power because his talent evaluation has been pretty questionable so far.  Sammy, Dareus, and Darby = playoff team easily.

I would say borderline playoff team. It feels like easy playoff team is a bit strong of a statement in my opinion. We had those guys and I didn't see us make the playoffs with them. 

 

I liked Darby but Tre White is also nice. I'll agree that moving Darius hurt us but that was a money move. I can understand it if they use rescource efficiently. Sammy I won't comment on because I am not debating potential. 

 

I think it's to early to know if SM will pass or fail. Even after the moves we had a 5-2 start. I know that doesn't mean much now. I don't see a very big difference between this year and last. It was the same feeling as last year maybe if we win some games we could possibly maybe sneak in at wildcard. Still seem to be hovering around 500.

 

They have accumulated rescource by sacrifice and it hurts now. It didn't seem to hurt as bad as people make it out to be. I have to give the benefit of the doubt until the moves they made become more clear in the next year.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Lfod

[CuddyDark]

Never got the coach right but like others have said good scout and talent guy but bad at the admin side. If her were here now though he'd probably sign some practice squad players who come in and help on defensive line right away.

[C.Biscuit97]

16 minutes ago, Lfod said:

I would say borderline playoff team. It feels like easy playoff team is a bit strong of a statement in my opinion. We had those guys and I didn't see us make the playoffs with them. 

 

I liked Darby but Tre White is also nice. I'll agree that moving Darius hurt us but that was a money move. I can understand it if they use rescource efficiently. Sammy I won't comment on because I am not debating potential. 

 

I think it's to early to know if SM will pass or fail. Even after the moves we had a 5-2 start. I know that doesn't mean much now. I don't see a very big difference between this year and last. It was the same feeling as last year maybe if we win some games we could possibly maybe sneak in at wildcard. Still seem to be hovering around 500.

 

They have accumulated rescource by sacrifice and it hurts now. It didn't seem to hurt as bad as people make it out to be. I have to give the benefit of the doubt until the moves they made become more clear in the next year.

YEah, Darby was easily replaced. But Sammy was a game changer for this offense. He opens up the run game and throwing to Sammy is the best thing Tyrod does as a passer.  And even being overweight, high, and unmotivated, Dareus was the best DT on the team and worth more than a 6th for a team trying to make the playoffs.

[Lfod]

26 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

YEah, Darby was easily replaced. But Sammy was a game changer for this offense. He opens up the run game and throwing to Sammy is the best thing Tyrod does as a passer.  And even being overweight, high, and unmotivated, Dareus was the best DT on the team and worth more than a 6th for a team trying to make the playoffs.

Honestly I would have liked to see what Sammy could do with Bills this year. I was turned off by his injury but it's the NFL and players get injured. Although I am neutral on Sammy I won't deny he makes a difference for the bills this year and if it was enough to break the drought you have to question it. Tre White replaced Darby but Zay Jones has not replaced Sammy. I feel like we have no true #1 to write home about that is fact.

 

Dareus is a beast and I don't deny moving him hurt. He is worth more than a 6th round pick. I think moving him was part of the reason the defence fell off. I don't think replacing him is an easy thing. Sadly I think this is a pure money move and they just wanted to dump him and the contract. 

 

So my thoughts are if the new regime sacrificed wins this year then they better get them next year and make a serious playoff push. If they don't make that next year I will completely agree that they were horrible moves. Only just the other half of what those moves mean hasn't come to fruition yet. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Lfod

[Bills Fan of St Augustine]

Freakin horrible GM. I can't believe this is even a thread. His contract extensions alone would indict him as awful. Throw in his draft record and god dam he was awful. Cost us a full decade. EJ, Watkins trade up, Mills, Cardele Jones, Koujo, Cyril Richardson!, he has killed us! Horrific GM!

Edited December 2, 2017 by Bills Fan of Maryland

[SoTier]

10 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...good point....we'll NEVER know the parameters of Whaley's "authority".......this time around, I'd bet Pegula handed Beane the keys unfettered.......look at Beane's staff....several former Pro Player Personnel Directors and VP's of Personnel....Pegula spared NO expense.......doubt he is a figurehead.....who the hell would want that position?......

 

We'll see.  If the Bills shed most of the rest of their higher priced talent (Clay, Glenn, McCoy, Incognito, Taylor, Williams, Wood) in the off season, I think you'll have your answer about how "unfettered" Beane isn't because it will be the same kind of thing that they did in 2017 before Beane was even hired.

[BuffaloRush]

7 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

This is getting ridiculous.

 

Nix's picks were his, Whaley's were Whaleys.

 

Having poor outcomes in the draft is not just bad luck. You can't say "Oh if only a few had gone better, he would have been ok". The JOB is to have things go right. Anyone can have them go wrong. You can not sensible say that it is a bad rap and unfair to rate a GM on how his drafts go, because anybody can guess wrong.

 

No Gm I am aware of,gets to hire the head coach. They all need owner's approval. Except Bill B because he hires himself he is the GM, and Jerry Jones, because he is the owner and the GM.

 

The story with Whaley is always the same. He leads the search, he is all on board. Then when it worked out bad, it wasn't him he was only being polite.

 

 

How anyone can say that Whaley had "good" drafts is beyond me.  As Assistant GM, you can say that Whaley helped to scout and draft some players that developed into All-Pros.  But the list below is not much of a resume builder.  As someone else stated, he has draft ZERO Pro Bowl selections in 3 drafts - not good.    Even the Marv Levy/Dick Jauron era produced better.   His best picks were guys like Ronald Darby in the 2nd or Preston Brown in the 3rd.  Darby is an NFL starter but hardly a top star and Brown is average at best.  The trade for Sammy backfired and while he has been a good WR when healthy, they completely overspend on him.  

 

The draft IMO is where you can really fault Whaley.  

 

Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2016	1	Shaq Lawson	19	DE	2017	0	0	1	1	20													5.0	Clemson
2016	2	Reggie Ragland	41	ILB	2017	0	0	0	0	8														Alabama
2016	3	Adolphus Washington	80	DT	2017	0	0	1	4	25													2.5	Ohio St.
2016	4	Cardale Jones	139	QB	2016	0	0	0	0	1	6	11	96	0	1	1	-1	0						Ohio St.
2016	5	Jonathan Williams	156	RB	2016	0	0	0	1	11	0	1	0	0	0	27	94	1	1	0	0			Arkansas
2016	6	Kolby Listenbee	192	WR		0	0	0																TCU
2016	6	Kevon Seymour	218	CB	2017	0	0	0	1	26														USC
Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2015	2	Ronald Darby	50	CB	2017	0	0	2	10	32												3		Florida St.
2015	3	John Miller	81	G	2017	0	0	2	13	32														Louisville
2015	5	Karlos Williams	155	RB	2015	0	0	0	4	11						93	517	7	11	96	2			Florida St.
2015	6	Tony Steward	188	OLB	2015	0	0	0	1	7														Clemson
2015	6	Nick O'Leary	194	TE	2017	0	0	0	1	31									28	405	1			Florida St.
2015	7	Dezmin Lewis	234	WR	2016	0	0	0	0	2									0	0	0			Central Arkansas
Year	Rnd	Player	Pick	Pos	To	AP1	PB	St	CarAV	G	Cmp	Att	Yds	TD	Int	Att	Yds	TD	Rec	Yds	TD	Int	Sk	College/Univ
2014	1	Sammy Watkins	4	WR	2017	0	0	4	20	48						3	9	0	181	2949	22			Clemson
2014	2	Cyrus Kouandjio	44	T	2017	0	0	0	6	26														Alabama
2014	3	Preston Brown	73	LB	2017	0	0	4	23	59												3	1.0	Louisville
2014	4	Ross Cockrell	109	DB	2017	0	0	1	11	49												2		Duke
2014	5	Cyril Richardson	153	G	2014	0	0	0	2	12														Baylor
2014	7	Randell Johnson	221	LB	2016	0	0	0	2	16														Florida Atlantic

Edited December 3, 2017 by BuffaloRush

[Just Joshin']

Seems like this is being over complicated.....the team W-L record is average at best during his tenure.

[bobobonators]

If EJ Manuel pans out Whaley is the best GM we have since Polian (not saying much, but still) 

[Magox]

He had a good eye for talent but was lousy in determining their proper value.   

[Buffalo Barbarian]

No

[McBean]

Long story short...

 

Hell. No.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

Whaley had screw ups but I think what put nail in the coffin was hiring Rex Ryan. Heard he liked other people. Bill's had to changed system again for Rex after dominating and dump 4-3 cause of Pegula love for him. Then switched whole D again. Things take time cannot change it every single year.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Buffalo Bills Fan