The Ultimate Bills Debate - Was Doug Whaley A Good GM?

[Bill_with_it]

2 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Mario, Marcell, Jerry Hughes, Kyle Williams,  Stephon Gilmore , all on team before Doug Whaley.

BLM some of these posters love to rewrite history to fit their narrative. I cant believe that they type posts with a straight face. That or they literally know nothing of the team. I think they post just like the blind unbreakable lust that Whaley had for EJ at the qb spot.

[NewEra]

I’m with those that said he was good talent evaluator, but didn’t know how to address the Qb postion while being in the position of never being able to choose HIS head coach.  I don’t know what went down when Ryan was hired, but it seemed as if he was afraid to tell Terry and Kim that they were making a mistake hiring a Ryan.  Was Ryan the Pegulas hire or was he behind it.  As the GM, he couldn’t NOT back up the hire publicly, so we’ll likely never know unless he speaks out.  The scheme switch on defense ruined the unit he put together (which was pretty good).  

 

He was in a postion where he had to draft a qb when we selected EJ.  What a BAD year to have to draft a qb.  Even though Whaley signed him, he gets no credit for TT (Rex gets the credit, but do we actually know where Whaley stood on his signing.). If he was against signing TT, I doubt he would’ve been signed.  He failed to deliver a franchise QB and paid for that with his job ultimately, given the circumstance of not being able to hire his HC (or not being man enough to tell the Pegulas that Rex was a bad fit).  I don’t think he was bad, but he certainly could’ve been MUCH better considering his scouting acumen.  He didn’t know how to run a franchise. Seemed as if he was a GM in title, but a glorified scout in reality.  Didn’t seem (to me anyway) that he had much power  after the Pegulas took over.

[JohnC]

23 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I always thought that Whaley was an average GM. He was excellent at evaluating pro talent and in general he added skilled guys in the draft. His problems were that he didn’t do a good job identifying heart in those guys (Dareus, Watkins, Gilmore, Cyrus, etc...). His roster was better when he left than when he started even if some of the guys were scheme specific (or Ragland).

 

My 2 biggest issues are that he whiffed on QB in the draft (although he supposedly loved Watson this year) and the Dareus contract. The fact that the Bills didn’t have an out for another failed test is an unforgivable mistake IMO. 

When McDermott entered the scene he did so with a blueprint of the type of players he wanted (beyond scheme) and was much more cognizant of cap structure. How a player fits in with his personality and commitment are serious considerations when deciding on roster spots. Chemistry is an issue that is important to McDermott while less so for Whaley, who focused on talent with less regard to the fit. 

 

As most everyone acknowledges Whaley was a good pro scout and average to below average as a college scout. There is no doubt that the owner with his HCing hires shackled the GM creating a lack of organizational cohesion. The Rex hire was an outright embarrassment that set this franchise back. This franchise is still working hard to overcome that glaring blunder.

 

What is going to define McDermott is how in general he drafts and whether he comes up with a franchise qb, sooner rather than later. I'm not bothered by the fact that it appears that McDermott has the most authority in the football operation, more than the GM, because what is more important is that the coach and the GM are in sync. So on the issue of organizational cohesion, which I believe is critical, this new regime is more advanced than the prior regime.    

[BadLandsMeanie]

27 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

In hindsight the Watkins trade up didn’t work but he was the highest rated player on multiple teams board over multiple drafts. He was an ELITE prospect with no holes. He ended up battling injuries and I’m not sure he works very hard but there weren’t a bunch of guys that were interchangeable. Watkins and Mack were the 2 safest prospects in the draft. They had enormous ceilings and high floors. At the time a lot of teams would have made that same move. FWIW, I liked Mack a lot too. I would have been fine if the move was for him too.

It was the #9 overall pick 1st round , and the following year's 1st and 4th round pick, for a wide receiver. Resources that would be more typical of a team after a franchise QB. 

 

For example the Chiefs just made a similar trade with the Bills, to get Mahomes. (A QB)

 

It was a weird thing to do. It was a huge gamble. When a man does something like that, he has to be right. It didn't tirn out to be worth it by a longshot mostly because of Watkins injury history and his not being any better than 3 or 4 guys picked after him, when he was healthy.

 

You can't just take a huge risk against all prevailing wisdom and practices, have it turn out poorly, and then say that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

It was the #9 overall pick 1st round , and the following year's 1st and 4th round pick, for a wide receiver. Resources that would be more typical of a team after a franchise QB. 

 

For example the Chiefs just made a similar trade with the Bills, to get Mahomes. (A QB)

 

It was a weird thing to do. It was a huge gamble. When a man does something like that, he has to be right. It didn't tirn out to be worth it by a longshot mostly because of Watkins injury history and his not being any better than 3 or 4 guys picked after him, when he was healthy.

 

You can't just take a huge risk against all prevailing wisdom and practices, have it turn out poorly, and then say that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

 

 

The Falcons made a similar deal for Julio Jones and it worked out fine. Watkins had virtually the same grade as Julio. In fact, the Falcons might have given up more. 

[frostbitmic]

It would have been interesting to see what would've happened had he been allowed to do the job of GM and hire his own HC. IMO both Marrone and Ryan were Russ Brandon hires.

 

He failed in an attempt to find a franchise type QB, Taylor is a stop gap and that's all. He did well signing free agents at other positions though but his draft skills and some of the contracts handed out (Dareus) were average at best.

 

Overall I'm neutral on Whaley because I don't think he ever really had full GM duties and therefore wasn't able to fulfill his vision for the team, whatever that may have been.

 

 

[Happy]

49 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...good point....we'll NEVER know the parameters of Whaley's "authority".......this time around, I'd bet Pegula handed Beane the keys unfettered.......look at Beane's staff....several former Pro Player Personnel Directors and VP's of Personnel....Pegula spared NO expense.......doubt he is a figurehead.....who the hell would want that position?......

I'll bet you're right, at least it seems that way when you trade a former 1st round DT in the middle of the season for peanuts.

Given Beane's staff, there is zero reason why they can't nail the draft this year, which they need to do given the dearth of talent we now have.

[Bangarang]

He wasn’t good at drafting and was horrible at addressing the QB situation. That’s bad if you’re a GM.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I'll bet you're right, at least it seems that way when you trade a former 1st round DT in the middle of the season for peanuts.

Given Beane's staff, there is zero reason why they can't nail the draft this year, which they need to do given the dearth of talent we now have.

 

....agree HG.....staff salaries came out of Pegula's pocket as did the $1.4 billion for the club.......although the draft is NOT an exact science, TP is certainly looking for results or a "little ROI"......

Edited December 2, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[frostbitmic]

55 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...good point....we'll NEVER know the parameters of Whaley's "authority".......this time around, I'd bet Pegula handed Beane the keys unfettered.......look at Beane's staff....several former Pro Player Personnel Directors and VP's of Personnel....Pegula spared NO expense.......doubt he is a figurehead.....who the hell would want that position?......

Wasn't it McDermott  that handed the keys to Beane ?

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The Falcons made a similar deal for Julio Jones and it worked out fine. Watkins had virtually the same grade as Julio. In fact, the Falcons might have given up more. 

The difference is that the Falcons had a top tier qb and a more complete team that was able to sustain the loss of picks. Julio's talents were able to be maximized because the franchise had a qb to actualize his talents. That wasn't the case in Buffalo. 

 

The issue has never been about Watkins's talent. Without a doubt he is a sterling talent. It will be on display in LA with Goff throwing to him while in Buffalo it wasn't going to happen here in Buffalo. In fact it was a source of his very public frustration. Whaley made the mistake of drafting Watkins to compensate for the weaknesses at qb. He got it backwards. He should have  first had a qb in place who was capable of maximizing the talents of the costly receiver. Strategic thinking in reverse is always wrong. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, ALF said:

 

Shaq, Ragland, Adolphus  were picks Rex wanted I think

All bad picks weren't REALLY the GM's picks.

55 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think Jim Schwartz would disagree.

46 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...EXACTLY......who else went out and got the players?......and MAJOR kudos to Schwartz for adapting his "system" to fit the personnel he had to work with (just like Dennison-COUGH).........

Probably not. 

 

Dareus, Mario, Gilmore, Bradham, Leo,  Kyle, Searcy, AW.  All here before Whaley took the reins.

 

I guess he got Hughes, Brown and Graham, along with Duke Williams and Rambo.  Instrumental is a stretch.

[Happy]

35 minutes ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Mario, Marcell, Jerry Hughes, Kyle Williams,  Stephon Gilmore , all on team before Doug Whaley.

Hughes was brought on via trade with Indy while Whaley was the acting GM and Buddy Nix was GM by title.  I think Hughes for Shepherd was a Whaley trade.

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The difference is that the Falcons had a top tier qb and a more complete team that was able to sustain the loss of picks. Julio's talents were able to be maximized because the franchise had a qb to actualize his talents. That wasn't the case in Buffalo. 

 

The issue has never been about Watkins's talent. Without a doubt he is a sterling talent. It will be on display in LA with Goff throwing to him while in Buffalo it wasn't going to happen here in Buffalo. In fact it was a source of his very public frustration. Whaley made the mistake of drafting Watkins to compensate for the weaknesses at qb. He got it backwards. He should have  first had a qb in place who was capable of maximizing the talents of the costly receiver. Strategic thinking in reverse is always wrong. 

At the same time though they had drafted their QB in the 1st round the year before. They got the QB wrong. They certainly believed, entering that season, that EJ was going to take a step forward. 

[keepthefaith]

12 hours ago, BuffaloRush said:

In my opinion, one of the most interesting tenures in Bills history is that of Doug Whaley's brief run as GM.  Bills fans have two reactions to him - they either love him or hate him.  It's been like this way for quite some time.  I remember walking out the stadium toward the end of last season after the Miami loss and we were grumbling about how Rex Ryan needed to be fired.  I said Whaley should be fired too and it really spawned a heated debate.

 

So in your estimation was Doug Whaley a good general manager.  Yes he's fired but there's many who still feel he got a raw deal.

 

Here's a few things to consider:

 

Positives:

- Very good at signing "bargain basement" free agents in offseason who contributed to the team (Zack Brown, Jordan Mills, Chris Hogan)

- Good at signing street free agents

- Able to re-sign several players to long term deals to stay in Buffalo (Hughes, Cordy, Marcel)

- Found players to fit in coaches scheme

- Wanted to win NOW

 

Negatives

- A very questionable draft record (especially in Rounds 1 and 2)

- Over spending for Sammy Watkins/doubling down on EJ Manual

- Drafting "damaged good" high in the draft (Lawson, Kuoundjio etc)

- Reckless with salary cap

- Neglected QB position for years

- Seemingly had problems with coaches (Rex and Marrone)

- Took chances on guys with "character issues"

 

My take - I think that Doug did try very hard to build a winning football the best way that he could.  In the end though, I feel that he was a bad General Manager and was happy to see the Bills move on from him.  Overall, I feel that his strength is with Pro Personnel and not as a GM.  

 

We all have our thoughts - what's your take on DW?

 

Under negatives I don't know how you could omit his horrible public speaking skills.  The GM is a significant face of a franchise.  You have to be at least average on camera when speaking publicly.  He was obviously very uncomfortable doing this and without winning big, the total lack of confidence he projected causes most to doubt him.  I'm sure Doug is a very nice guy and being effective on camera with an audience is not easy, but again you have to be at least somewhat competent in that role IMO. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by keepthefaith

[BringBackOrton]

10 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

Hughes was brought on via trade with Indy while Whaley was the acting GM and Buddy Nix was GM by title.  I think Hughes for Shepherd was a Whaley trade.

And we've certainly seen how good the Doug Whaley defense of Hughes, Brown, Shaq, Ragland, Adolphus truly was.

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

At the same time though they had drafted their QB in the 1st round the year before. They got the QB wrong. They certainly believed, entering that season, that EJ was going to take a step forward. 

Doubling down on EJ after his nothing special rookie year was silly.

[Happy]

21 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

He wasn’t good at drafting and was horrible at addressing the QB situation. That’s bad if you’re a GM.

I did a search on Whaley's drafts since I was thinking they weren't that bad, at least I don't remember that.  While Whaley wasn't absolutely horrible at drafting, he wasn't great either.  He hit on a few, missed on a few, but most picks were 'meh'.  So not the best drafter out there over his tenure here.

The QB situation really hurt him.

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

At the same time though they had drafted their QB in the 1st round the year before. They got the QB wrong. They certainly believed, entering that season, that EJ was going to take a step forward. 

When you are wrong it has a cascading effect. Marrone was a tiresome act one quickly wearies of. He was right and wasn't going to tolerate the albatross. EJ was a fourth round prospect who was drafted in the first round. It was a bad decision that had a damaging repercussion on him to the extent that it was a contributor to his failure at the job. 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, jmc12290 said:

And we've certainly seen how good the Doug Whaley defense of Hughes, Brown, Shaq, Ragland, Adolphus truly was.

Doubling down on EJ after his nothing special rookie year was silly.

I don’t disagree at all. I understand their thinking even if it was misguided. 

[Romie]

He did some stupid ****,  but he put enough talent together for a playoff run, Rex couldn't coach.  Just my opinion.