Apparently the offense is holding Tyrod back

[moshermw]

1 minute ago, Air it out Fitzy said:

 

More fake news,   Baltimore, Pitt, Oak, Mia etc etc etc etc.  

 

tyrod is what he is 20th-25th in a league where 20 teams don't make the postseason. 

Those are real videos ? Unedited as far as I know.

 

And real math shows that - even with the losses you mentioned - these two should have been won and get us to the PO.

 

Pro Tip: Don't hit on 17 in blackjack.

[Teddy KGB]

29 minutes ago, moshermw said:

Those are real videos ? Unedited as far as I know.

 

And real math shows that - even with the losses you mentioned - these two should have been won and get us to the PO.

 

Pro Tip: Don't hit on 17 in blackjack.

 

For every good game there is a ? Game. 

 

It's why this discussion has raged for 2 plus years now.   

 

 

[JaCrispy]

51 minutes ago, moshermw said:

Those are real videos ? Unedited as far as I know.

 

And real math shows that - even with the losses you mentioned - these two should have been won and get us to the PO.

 

Pro Tip: Don't hit on 17 in blackjack.

Why would you want to continue to waste time on a guy who will never get you to the Super Bowl? 

 

It’s not a matter of “hitting on 17” as much as it is not being content with mediocrity...sorry but I don’t want to just be happy that we have a football team in Buffalo- I actually want to win...and I’m will to spend chance after chance of finding that guy that will belting the Bills a victory.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

36 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Why would you want to continue to waste time on a guy who will never get you to the Super Bowl? 

 

It’s not a matter of “hitting on 17” as much as it is not being content with mediocrity...sorry but I don’t want to just be happy that we have a football team in Buffalo- I actually want to win...and I’m will to spend chance after chance of finding that guy that will belting the Bills a victory.

 

'Crispy:

 

....if I understand this properly, Taylor will always and unfortunately (would love to see the kid succeed-hating him is pure ignorance) be a PUSH-16......hoping for better cards in the next hand............

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, moshermw said:

Those are real videos ? Unedited as far as I know.

 

And real math shows that - even with the losses you mentioned - these two should have been won and get us to the PO.

 

Pro Tip: Don't hit on 17 in blackjack.

Taylor's a soft 17 if I ever saw one. 

[Alphadawg7]

19 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Just to illustrate how silly it is to credit Taylor (or any Bills QB lately) with offensive PPG: the Bills in 2015 averaged 23.7 PPG. In the two EJ Manuel led games, the Bills offense averaged 26 PPG.

 

OMG and he didn't even have Watkins for one of them. 

 

18 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Shhhhh you will upset the "None of it is Tyrods fault" crowd.

 

1.  Interesting you left off the third EJ game to not skew your tiny false positive sample size where EJ led the team to ZERO points and the only TD in the game was a late 1 yard run by Gillisee while CARDALE was the QB.  But hey, I get it, you can only create your false point by ignoring more data and cherry picking 2 specific ones.

 

2.  The two EJ games were against Jax (Bills final score of 31) and Bengals (Bills final score of 21).  Jacksonville was atrocious and gave up 28 points per game that season, so again further illustrating how silly your 2 sample game size is compared to 2 and a half season of starts by Taylor.

 

3.  Since being the named the starter for week 1 in 2015, Tyrod taylor has missed 3 1/2 games.  In those games the Bills scored 31 (against a D giving up 28 points per game), 21, 10 and 0 (in one half).  Thats 14 quarters of football.  Here is what the offense and the QBs did in his place:

 

14 quarters, 62 total points.

Averages out to 17.7 Points per game.  

QB's combined for 3 TDs, 3 lost fumbles, 9 Interceptions.

 

Since joining the Bills, Tyrod has done the following:

PPG:  23.8, 64 TD's, 17 INT.

 

So, sorry, but your response is not only irrelevant but also completely worthless, false, and a waste of time.  

Edited December 2, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

 

1.  Interesting you left off the third EJ game to not skew your tiny false positive sample size where EJ led the team to ZERO points and the only TD in the game was a late 1 yard run by Gillisee while CARDALE was the QB.  But hey, I get it, you can only create your false point by ignoring more data and cherry picking 2 specific ones.

 

2.  The two EJ games were against Jax (Bills final score of 31) and Bengals (Bills final score of 21).  Jacksonville was atrocious and gave up 28 points per game that season, so again further illustrating how silly your 2 sample game size is compared to 2 and a half season of starts by Taylor.

 

3.  Since being the named the starter for week 1 in 2015, Tyrod taylor has missed 3 1/2 games.  In those games the Bills scored 31 (against a D giving up 28 points per game), 21, 10 and 0 (in one half).  Thats 14 quarters of football.  Here is what the offense and the QBs did in his place:

 

14 quarters, 62 total points.

Averages out to 17.7 Points per game.  

QB's combined for 3 TDs, 3 lost fumbles, 9 Interceptions.

 

Since joining the Bills, Tyrod has done the following:

PPG:  23.8, 64 TD's, 17 INT.

 

So, sorry, but your response is not only irrelevant but also completely worthless, false, and a waste of time.  

Cardale was drafted in 2016, wasn't he? I was only talking about 2015.

 

And you're obviously right that the sample size is small, and therefore dumb...my point was that it's dumb overall to credit a QB with his offense's PPG when his contributions don't warrant it. But I wasn't trying to be misleading, and if I forgot a Manuel game in 2015 it's because I blocked it out of my memory.

 

And lastly, your point about playing bad defenses is 100% correct. We also played the Niners, Browns, and Rams in 2016 IIRC, all of whom were awful and we put up a lot of points against. It all needs to be considered IMO.

 

 

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, Bills757 said:

 

 

The Oline blows!!  They’re terrible.  The run game wouldn’t have been great if it weren’t for McCoy and to some extent Taylor. Again, you can bring the perfect pocket passer to Buffalo but unless the Oline is upgraded, he’s gonna get crushed and possibly injured. 

 

Did the Peterman experiment not open your eyes?  He had zero time to throw (most of the time) and was no threat to run the ball.  And McCoy actually put up some yards in that game. 

 

Add in the fact the Bills have no deep threat. Taylor throws one of the best deep balls in the NFL yet management decides not to provide a WR that can stretch the field. 

 

If the Bills don’t go heavy on OL and DL in the draft and waste a first round pick on a QB, they’re bigger fools than some of the posters on this board. 

They must take the whom they deem the "most likely to succeed" QB as soon as possible. Thats no knock on Tyrod either.
And that is what they already set themselves up for. We will have enough picks to grab both,  a very good to excellent Lineman for either side of the ball. There are more holes of course.

 But draft em like ya got a pair. QBs that is.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

10 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

They must take the whom they deem the "most likely to succeed" QB as soon as possible. Thats no knock on Tyrod either.
And that is what they already set themselves up for. We will have enough picks to grab both,  a very good to excellent Lineman for either side of the ball. There are more holes of course.

 But draft em like ya got a pair. QBs that is.

 

...I'm thinking we draft SIX QB's with the first six picks, keep Peterman and sign four more UFA/UDFA QB's....we could then field an offense of ELEVEN QB"S and keep DC's guessing...

[3rdand12]

There is no good reason not to be flush with quality QBs.
you are only allowed to dress 10 qbs. Your logic is flawed

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Cardale was drafted in 2016, wasn't he? I was only talking about 2015.

 

And you're obviously right that the sample size is small, and therefore dumb...my point was that it's dumb overall to credit a QB with his offense's PPG when his contributions don't warrant it. But I wasn't trying to be misleading, and if I forgot a Manuel game in 2015 it's because I blocked it out of my memory.

 

And lastly, your point about playing bad defenses is 100% correct. We also played the Niners, Browns, and Rams in 2016 IIRC, all of whom were awful and we put up a lot of points against. It all needs to be considered IMO.

 

 

 

You were the one who chose to pick just two games create a narrative to use to discredit the impact Tyrod has had on this team.  It was factually wrong, incomplete, and had nothing to do with anything I originally said.  Im not trying to be a d*** but this stuff irritates me and is a pet peeve of mine.

 

First off, I referenced 2016 and that the Bills were third in the NFL in TD's scored going into week 17 while TT led this team before he sat that final week.  You then cherry picked 2 games from a different year to skew those facts and also brought in PPG instead of TD's scored.  

 

Bottom line, is over and over again its been proven just how bad this offense and team is when Tyrod doesn't play.  Does that mean Tyrod is some savior, absolutely not.  But he has a winning record on a team that is atrocious when he doesn't play and also winless when he doesn't play.  And he did all that mostly with a garbage coaching staff, weak set of receiving weapons due to injuries, trades, etc.  

 

All I had said he isn't going to carry a bad team very far, but with a good D, and some weapons to work with he can not only win games but he can get teams into the postseason.  And for anyone to say he can't would be absurd since he's come close on a bad team 2 seasons in a row and may still yet get us into the playoffs this season despite the Peterman Blunder.  

 

He won't be here next year, but put him on a team like Denver or Jax next year and those teams can make playoffs.  

Edited December 2, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

There is no good reason not to be flush with quality QBs.
you are only allowed to dress 10 qbs. Your logic is flawed

 

....how 'out Logan Thomas as our decoy 11th???..........

[Teddy KGB]

35 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

.  

 

He won't be here next year, but put him on a team like Denver or Jax next year and those teams can make playoffs.  

 

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Air it out Fitzy

[bobobonators]

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Cardale was drafted in 2016, wasn't he? I was only talking about 2015.

 

And you're obviously right that the sample size is small, and therefore dumb...my point was that it's dumb overall to credit a QB with his offense's PPG when his contributions don't warrant it. But I wasn't trying to be misleading, and if I forgot a Manuel game in 2015 it's because I blocked it out of my memory.

 

And lastly, your point about playing bad defenses is 100% correct. We also played the Niners, Browns, and Rams in 2016 IIRC, all of whom were awful and we put up a lot of points against. It all needs to be considered IMO.

 

 

“His contributions dont warrant it” 

they may not warrant it in your eyes, but the rest of the NFL, fans outside of Buffalo, and anyone with half a brain who watches football recognizes it. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You were the one who chose to pick just two games create a narrative to use to discredit the impact Tyrod has had on this team.  It was factually wrong, incomplete, and had nothing to do with anything I originally said.  Im not trying to be a d*** but this stuff irritates me and is a pet peeve of mine.

 

First off, I referenced 2016 and that the Bills were third in the NFL in TD's scored going into week 17 while TT led this team before he sat that final week.  You then cherry picked 2 games from a different year to skew those facts and also brought in PPG instead of TD's scored.  

 

Bottom line, is over and over again its been proven just how bad this offense and team is when Tyrod doesn't play.  Does that mean Tyrod is some savior, absolutely not.  But he has a winning record on a team that is atrocious when he doesn't play and also winless when he doesn't play.  And he did all that mostly with a garbage coaching staff, weak set of receiving weapons due to injuries, trades, etc.  

 

All I had said he isn't going to carry a bad team very far, but with a good D, and some weapons to work with he can not only win games but he can get teams into the postseason.  And for anyone to say he can't would be absurd since he's come close on a bad team 2 seasons in a row and may still yet get us into the playoffs this season despite the Peterman Blunder.  

 

He won't be here next year, but put him on a team like Denver or Jax next year and those teams can make playoffs.  

Nothing I said was factually wrong. Incomplete for sure...like attributing offensive PPG to a low usage QB. That was the point.

 

Let me ask you a question: there are about 5 'Dennison sucks' threads on the front page right now, and almost all of them conclude that it's because he doesn't design the offense specifically around Taylor. There were an equivalent number of 'Roman sucks' and 'Lynn sucks' threads at various periods over the last 3 years...my question is do you agree? And if so, do you recognize the incongruity in the simultaneous beliefs that the OC hasn't designed the system around Taylor AND that it suffers so heavily when he doesn't play?  I don't think you can reconcile those two views, myself.

 

And I don't think 'he can make the playoffs with a good defense and weapons' is a great argument. Bortles actually is (probably) going to make the playoffs with the Jags, but you certainly wouldn't say it's because of him. Keenum is having a Foles-esque type season, but he's not in Minnesota's long term plans and for good reason...he's unlikely to duplicate the success he's having this year (which is a better year IMO than Taylor's best in 2015 thus far). There are probably 25+ starting QBs who could make the playoffs with a good defense and weapons. Flacco, as bad as he is right now, is probably going to make the playoffs with a great defense and average-at-best weapons. It's not a convincing argument for his value though. 

33 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

“His contributions dont warrant it” 

they may not warrant it in your eyes, but the rest of the NFL, fans outside of Buffalo, and anyone with half a brain who watches football recognizes it. 

I guess we'll see this offseason. You think I underrate him and I think you overrate him, only difference is I don't purport to speak for the rest of the NFL or insult you for your view.

[Mike in Horseheads]

HAHAHAHAHAHA... on the thread title

[Scott7975]

It can be both.  I would say this offense isn't suited to Tyrods skillset.  Tyrod does not have the skillset to run this offense.  In the best of circumstances  Tyrod could probably made the playoffs. For instance if we had Tyrod's offense of 2015 coupled with the defense of 2014. He is probably in close to the worst of circumstances this year.  I would say worst but the defense has a few really good games.

 

This team needs to draft someone next year that is a serious draft pick not a flyer.  We need to hope said QB can be a franchise QB.  IMO Tyrod is one of the best bridge QB's out there.  I don't see the point of releasing him unless your goal is to tank.  He is either going to be better than the rookie drafted or he will be a good backup to have.

[Alphadawg7]

17 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Nothing I said was factually wrong. Incomplete for sure...like attributing offensive PPG to a low usage QB. That was the point.

 

Let me ask you a question: there are about 5 'Dennison sucks' threads on the front page right now, and almost all of them conclude that it's because he doesn't design the offense specifically around Taylor. There were an equivalent number of 'Roman sucks' and 'Lynn sucks' threads at various periods over the last 3 years...my question is do you agree? And if so, do you recognize the incongruity in the simultaneous beliefs that the OC hasn't designed the system around Taylor AND that it suffers so heavily when he doesn't play?  I don't think you can reconcile those two views, myself.

 

And I don't think 'he can make the playoffs with a good defense and weapons' is a great argument. Bortles actually is (probably) going to make the playoffs with the Jags, but you certainly wouldn't say it's because of him. Keenum is having a Foles-esque type season, but he's not in Minnesota's long term plans and for good reason...he's unlikely to duplicate the success he's having this year (which is a better year IMO than Taylor's best in 2015 thus far). There are probably 25+ starting QBs who could make the playoffs with a good defense and weapons. Flacco, as bad as he is right now, is probably going to make the playoffs with a great defense and average-at-best weapons. It's not a convincing argument for his value though. 

I guess we'll see this offseason. You think I underrate him and I think you overrate him, only difference is I don't purport to speak for the rest of the NFL or insult you for your view.

 

Lets look at the core of those "he sucks" threads about various OC's here.  

 

Roman - Actually was relatively liked most his time, took our team and created a potent rush attack and groomed TT in his first year.  Most of the "he sucks" had nothing to do with a first year starting QB, who was voted into the Pro Bowl in his first year.  The gripes on Roman was usually related to play calls people didn't agree with, but even the hate was minimal year 1 as most people were thrilled to see an inept offense the year before find life.  The he sucks threads started in year 2 after a lack luster preseason and lame duck first 2 games where the offense had not rhythm.   He probably got a bit of a raw deal after a strong first season to get canned after 1 week, but the staff was on the hot seat and he seemed to be the sacrificial lamb.

 

Lynn - Another guy who was instantly loved mostly because the offense instantly came to life with him as the OC and the Bills would have the 5th higher scoring season in team history despite the slow first 2 weeks under Roman.  Again, most the criticisms came in later in the year as the game went forward where he would sometimes get into head scratching play calls against the grain of the strength of the team.  But again, the Bills had 3rd most TDs in NFL going into week 17, was the 5th highest scoring team in franchise history, and had TT played week 17 last years team could have finished 3rd in franchise history.   He parlayed that into a HC gig after just part of a season as an OC.  

 

Both Roman and Lynn played to the strengths and weaknesses of Taylor to try and keep the offense scoring, and did so pretty well.  Like any QB in his first 2 years of starting, there were lots of holes in Taylors game.  A well known issue was Taylor not seeing more of the field and not using the middle of the field.  But that was also a by product of Rex giving TT the green light to run and run a lot.  Meaning, when he's got the green light to use his legs, Taylor takes his eyes too quickly of the downfield opportunities to look for running lanes.  

 

Dennison - The hate from him is because he has taken the #1 running attack over the last 2 years down to a mediocre level.  He has successfully got Taylor using more of the field and the middle more compared to his first 2 years, but he is also trying to mold Taylor into his offense.  But almost all the Dennison hate is around his terrible play calling, way to conservative approach, and terrible use of personnel like Tolbert used too much.   And lets be honest, Dennison has a meh resume to begin with.

 

So I don't know where you get all this "hate" for the OC's from.  No one is safe on any team from the fans, they will get hate even when unwarranted.  Roman and Lynn were mostly positive here with the exception of the first games of 2016 when the offense was stuck in the mud.  Dennison is the only one with a lot of hate, and IMO its deserved...he has bene maddening at times in play calling and his obsession with down and long draw calls to Tolbert.

[Teddy KGB]

27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lets look at the core of those "he sucks" threads about various OC's here.  

 

Roman - Actually was relatively liked most his time, took our team and created a potent rush attack and groomed TT in his first year.  Most of the "he sucks" had nothing to do with a first year starting QB, who was voted into the Pro Bowl in his first year.  The gripes on Roman was usually related to play calls people didn't agree with, but even the hate was minimal year 1 as most people were thrilled to see an inept offense the year before find life.  The he sucks threads started in year 2 after a lack luster preseason and lame duck first 2 games where the offense had not rhythm.   He probably got a bit of a raw deal after a strong first season to get canned after 1 week, but the staff was on the hot seat and he seemed to be the sacrificial lamb.

 

Lynn - Another guy who was instantly loved mostly because the offense instantly came to life with him as the OC and the Bills would have the 5th higher scoring season in team history despite the slow first 2 weeks under Roman.  Again, most the criticisms came in later in the year as the game went forward where he would sometimes get into head scratching play calls against the grain of the strength of the team.  But again, the Bills had 3rd most TDs in NFL going into week 17, was the 5th highest scoring team in franchise history, and had TT played week 17 last years team could have finished 3rd in franchise history.   He parlayed that into a HC gig after just part of a season as an OC.  

 

Both Roman and Lynn played to the strengths and weaknesses of Taylor to try and keep the offense scoring, and did so pretty well.  Like any QB in his first 2 years of starting, there were lots of holes in Taylors game.  A well known issue was Taylor not seeing more of the field and not using the middle of the field.  But that was also a by product of Rex giving TT the green light to run and run a lot.  Meaning, when he's got the green light to use his legs, Taylor takes his eyes too quickly of the downfield opportunities to look for running lanes.  

 

Dennison - The hate from him is because he has taken the #1 running attack over the last 2 years down to a mediocre level.  He has successfully got Taylor using more of the field and the middle more compared to his first 2 years, but he is also trying to mold Taylor into his offense.  But almost all the Dennison hate is around his terrible play calling, way to conservative approach, and terrible use of personnel like Tolbert used too much.   And lets be honest, Dennison has a meh resume to begin with.

 

So I don't know where you get all this "hate" for the OC's from.  No one is safe on any team from the fans, they will get hate even when unwarranted.  Roman and Lynn were mostly positive here with the exception of the first games of 2016 when the offense was stuck in the mud.  Dennison is the only one with a lot of hate, and IMO its deserved...he has bene maddening at times in play calling and his obsession with down and long draw calls to Tolbert.

 

He sucks.     Another 48 yard half in the books ??‍♂️

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Air it out Fitzy said:

 

He sucks.     Another 48 yard half in the books ??‍♂️

 

You realize the post you responded too was about the OC's and if the fans hate them or not.  lol