Again the need for 300 yards Passing/game

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, jmc12290 said:

You don't contend that our gross passing numbers were low in 2015 and 2016 because our rushing numbers were high and "a rushing TD and passing TD count the same?"

 

No, he's not.  

I contend that the offense would be the same with the same level of coaching. Tyrod is the same average starting QB that he was the last 2 years. The OL has the same ability that it had prior. Shady is the same star back that he has been for a while. The failure of the offense is the inability of the coaching staff to do what works. We know it works because we saw it work. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I contend that the offense would be the same with the same level of coaching. Tyrod is the same average starting QB that he was the last 2 years. The OL has the same ability that it had prior. Shady is the same star back that he has been for a while. The failure of the offense is the inability of the coaching staff to do what works. We know it works because we saw it work. 

Was there an answer to my question in there?

[Kirby Jackson]

5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Was there an answer to my question in there?

Your question is irrelevant too because it isn’t a reflection of the results. The offense is worse. That is the issue. Why is the offense worse? That is the question.

 

The results are worse because the coaching staff isn’t getting the same results with largely the same group of players as the previous regime. It’s much, much, much, much more likely that the scheme and playcalling are the issues than it is everyone simultaneously got worse.

 

You just admitted that Shady is the same. Why are his results so different? That’s the point. It doesn’t matter about 300 yard passing games or passing TDs or rushing TDs. Points are all that matters. The offense is worse this year.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Your question is irrelevant too because it isn’t a reflection of the results. The offense is worse. That is the issue. Why is the offense worse? That is the question.

 

The results are worse because the coaching staff isn’t getting the same results with largely the same group of players as the previous regime. It’s much, much, much, much more likely that the scheme and playcalling is the issue than it is everyone simultaneously got worse. You just admitted that Shady is the same. Why are his results so different? That’s the point. It doesn’t matter about 300 yard passing games or passing TDs or rushing TDs. Points are all that matters. The offense is worse this year.

I'll take that as a refusal to answer, I guess.

 

I never said that everyone got worse.  I said that our run game got worse and our QB isn't good enough to compensate.  Our run game last year was good enough to compensate for him, which is why we were top 10 in points.   Our QB wasn't good enough last year and he still isn't this year.  And when our run game struggles, mostly scheme related, our offense isn't good.

 

Anyone who debates that is just wrong. 

 

You can thank Rex for the offense being worse.  Run game regression was inevitable with the scapegoating of Roman.  

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, jmc12290 said:

I'll take that as a refusal to answer, I guess.

 

I never said that everyone got worse.  I said that our run game got worse and our QB isn't good enough to compensate.  Our run game last year was good enough to compensate for him, which is why we were top 10 in points.   Our QB wasn't good enough last year and he still isn't this year.  And when our run game struggles, mostly scheme related, our offense isn't good.

 

Anyone who debates that is just wrong. 

 

You can thank Rex for the offense being worse.  Run game regression was inevitable with the scapegoating of Roman.  

Of course our passing numbers were low because our rushing numbers were high. This personnel has proven that they can be a very good offense. They were 7th in scoring through 16 weeks (I believe). There is no need to “compensate.” Just do what works and you will be back there. The offense didn’t need a makeover. It needed tweaks. The defense needed the makeover. Instead it all got ripped down and outside of the secondary it hasn’t improved. 

 

I don’t disagree that scapegoating Roman was a mistake. He was a really good fit with our guys. The same can be said for Kromer. The Bills should have hired him as the OC. He has experience and is a very good football coach. He’s working wonders in LA. 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

Of course our passing numbers were low because our rushing numbers were high. This personnel has proven that they can be a very good offense. They were 7th in scoring through 16 weeks (I believe). There is no need to “compensate.” Just do what works and you will be back there. The offense didn’t need a makeover. It needed tweaks. The defense needed the makeover. Instead it all got ripped down and outside of the secondary it hasn’t improved. 

 

I don’t disagree that scapegoating Roman was a mistake. He was a really good fit with our guys. The same can be said for Kromer. The Bills should have hired him as the OC. He has experience and is a very good football coach. He’s working wonders in LA. 

How do we know Kromer wouldn't have instituted the same makeover?

 

I'm not sure he was a part of the Roman coaching tree.

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

How do we know Kromer wouldn't have instituted the same makeover?

 

I'm not sure he was a part of the Roman coaching tree.

Maybe he would have. He was a Payton guy though and they have been pretty good offensive minds. I just think that his philosophy on OL play was a good fit for this talent. In addition, he saw (and was a part of) what worked. In some ways it’s similar to why I wanted Schwartz to stay before Rex was hired. I wanted the defense to be the same or at least mostly the same.

 

I’m going to bed but it’s been fun debating with you. We will do it again soon. Have a good night!!

Edited November 29, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Maybe he would have. He was a Payton guy though and they have been pretty good offensive minds. I just think that his philosophy on OL play was a good fit for this talent. In addition, he saw (and was a part of) what worked. In some ways it’s similar to why I wanted Schwartz to stay before Rex was hired. I wanted the defense to be the same or at least mostly the same.

And there's the rub.  It all comes back to the Pegulas...

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, jmc12290 said:

And there's the rub.  It all comes back to the Pegulas...

Ha ha, we definitely agree there

[xRUSHx]

4 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

No one is holding out hope of anything. No one has showed a correlation between 300 yard passing games and winning. Tyrod Taylor has a higher winning percentage this year than 300 yard passers. Arguing otherwise is like arguing that the sun isn’t hot. You can’t debate it. Why are we talking about 300 yard passing games when it is totally irrelevant? We should be talking about holding teams under 24 points. That clearly correlates with wins and losses.

Our QB is 21-18. He must be beating some people.

Your funny how you twist it, yeah we should have a D that does even more, at least 5 or 6 picks every game so when Tyrod gets on the field 20 or 30 times and only scores once we will still have a chance at winning. The D needs to give Tyrod the ball in the red zone more often as well so he can get off the field faster to rest because he must be exhausted after all those 3 and outs. The TOP is not important at all, the D should not get so winded.

 

If only our D could stay on the field all the time because Tyrod wins games more when he gets 100 yards not 200. SMH, if only the NFL was a defensive driven league and not a QB driven one. 

 

 Tyrod is not beating anyone on his own with his one or 2 score games, the D is doing more to cover for him in games he won, the team is winning in spite of him not because of him.

 

Hey he is 21-18, what a wonderful record as a starter. haha, at least Tyrod has a shot at finishing 23-21 before he is released, sadly and lucky for him he might not play the last two games to end up even at 21-21. I would  hate to see him go negative in the win loss if the team loses out. Not to worry I would imagine 3 straight losses will finish him off here and have Peterman back in to end the season.

Edited November 29, 2017 by xRUSHx

[Kirby Jackson]

6 hours ago, xRUSHx said:

Your funny how you twist it, yeah we should have a D that does even more, at least 5 or 6 picks every game so when Tyrod gets on the field 20 or 30 times and only scores once we will still have a chance at winning. The D needs to give Tyrod the ball in the red zone more often as well so he can get off the field faster to rest because he must be exhausted after all those 3 and outs. The TOP is not important at all, the D should not get so winded.

 

If only our D could stay on the field all the time because Tyrod wins games more when he gets 100 yards not 200. SMH, if only the NFL was a defensive driven league and not a QB driven one. 

 

 Tyrod is not beating anyone on his own with his one or 2 score games, the D is doing more to cover for him in games he won, the team is winning in spite of him not because of him.

 

Hey he is 21-18, what a wonderful record as a starter. haha, at least Tyrod has a shot at finishing 23-21 before he is released, sadly and lucky for him he might not play the last two games to end up even at 21-21. I would  hate to see him go negative in the win loss if the team loses out. Not to worry I would imagine 3 straight losses will finish him off here and have Peterman back in to end the season.

You are hoping so much for losses so that you’ll look less wrong than you have since you got here. You still don’t get it but that’s not news to anyone here.

 

The reason that I mentioned the defense stat is because it correlates to wins and losses. It actually matters. Hokie did the research earlier in this thread. 

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t disagree that scapegoating Roman was a mistake. He was a really good fit with our guys. The same can be said for Kromer. The Bills should have hired him as the OC. He has experience and is a very good football coach. He’s working wonders in LA. 

 

I would have been very happy with them keeping Kromer and promoting him, even happier if they had just undone Rex's attempt to save his job and brought back Greg Roman (though if the rumours are true the owners that "don't interfere" did interfere in that decision).  But having not gone that route now the chance to just keep hold of the 2016 playbook is gone.  So we have to think about what is the best way to build the offense in 2018.  That means identifying the strengths of the QB they wan to draft and finding a guy with a history of being able to utilise that skill set.  I really like Sean Ryan who is the QB coach in Houston as an OC candidate.  I doubt I am the only person thinking this but when you read how much work he did to construct an offense that included concepts and principles Deshaun Watson was familiar with from college that strikes me as the kind of adaptable, flexible mind we are going to need to help a rookie QB adjust to the NFL.  Especially if we select a Baker Mayfield or a Mason Rudolph or a Lamar Jackson who have played in versions of the spread in college.  Remember Houston doesn't have an OC.... Billy O does that job of calling plays so Ryan is heavily involved in the game planning and scheme design.  I suspect Houston tries to promote him to convince him to stay.

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I would have been very happy with them keeping Kromer and promoting him, even happier if they had just undone Rex's attempt to save his job and brought back Greg Roman (though if the rumours are true the owners that "don't interfere" did interfere in that decision).  But having not gone that route now the chance to just keep hold of the 2016 playbook is gone.  So we have to think about what is the best way to build the offense in 2018.  That means identifying the strengths of the QB they wan to draft and finding a guy with a history of being able to utilise that skill set.  I really like Sean Ryan who is the QB coach in Houston as an OC candidate.  I doubt I am the only person thinking this but when you read how much work he did to construct an offense that included concepts and principles Deshaun Watson was familiar with from college that strikes me as the kind of adaptable, flexible mind we are going to need to help a rookie QB adjust to the NFL.  Especially if we select a Baker Mayfield or a Mason Rudolph or a Lamar Jackson who have played in versions of the spread in college.  Remember Houston doesn't have an OC.... Billy O does that job of calling plays so Ryan is heavily involved in the game planning and scheme design.  I suspect Houston tries to promote him to convince him to stay.

I like this idea GB. He’s is from upstate New York I believe too. Not that it makes a huge difference but he’d only be a few hours from family.

[BuffaloHokie13]

10 hours ago, LarryMadman said:

Why did you arbitrarily pick 220 yards? Bigger named QBs to fit your agenda, to paint your boy Tyrod in a better light? If you picked under 200 yards( which everyone would do and  makes way more sense), Tyrod sits at 184, the big names go away and doesn't fit your agenda as nicely. The under 200 yards list is Kizer, Cutler, Flacco, Hoyer, Hundley, Trubisky, Savage and even Aaron Rodgers (though he only started 6 games). 

You just can't handle that Tyrod stinks and is in the bottom with the also rans and rookies, save Rodgers. The first stage is acceptance, let it happen. 

 

The love affair with this guy is unprecedented and down right creepy. I've never seen the excuses and fabrications made to make this guy look better than he is, it's bizarre. 

 I picked 220 because 225 is 75% of what the OP is asking for. Thus, by making the list 220 and under it includes everyone who isn't even getting 75% of what the OP wants. Had absolutely nothing to do with Tyrod other than he's included on the list.

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I would have been very happy with them keeping Kromer and promoting him, even happier if they had just undone Rex's attempt to save his job and brought back Greg Roman (though if the rumours are true the owners that "don't interfere" did interfere in that decision).  But having not gone that route now the chance to just keep hold of the 2016 playbook is gone.  So we have to think about what is the best way to build the offense in 2018.  That means identifying the strengths of the QB they wan to draft and finding a guy with a history of being able to utilise that skill set.  I really like Sean Ryan who is the QB coach in Houston as an OC candidate.  I doubt I am the only person thinking this but when you read how much work he did to construct an offense that included concepts and principles Deshaun Watson was familiar with from college that strikes me as the kind of adaptable, flexible mind we are going to need to help a rookie QB adjust to the NFL.  Especially if we select a Baker Mayfield or a Mason Rudolph or a Lamar Jackson who have played in versions of the spread in college.  Remember Houston doesn't have an OC.... Billy O does that job of calling plays so Ryan is heavily involved in the game planning and scheme design.  I suspect Houston tries to promote him to convince him to stay.

Great stuff GB.  

 

Can't Houston block any upgrade that isn't to HC?  Would be a potential sticking point, although the team has ample reasons to not do so.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Great stuff GB.  

 

Can't Houston block any upgrade that isn't to HC?  Would be a potential sticking point, although the team has ample reasons to not do so.

 

Yea they can. I imagine if Watson likes him they do absolutely everything to keep him.  

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea they can. I imagine if Watson likes him they do absolutely everything to keep him.  

We may even see a Dirk Koetter situation at some point.  I don't think BOB is a favorite in the FO.

[Lfod]

8 hours ago, xRUSHx said:

Your funny how you twist it, yeah we should have a D that does even more, at least 5 or 6 picks every game so when Tyrod gets on the field 20 or 30 times and only scores once we will still have a chance at winning. The D needs to give Tyrod the ball in the red zone more often as well so he can get off the field faster to rest because he must be exhausted after all those 3 and outs. The TOP is not important at all, the D should not get so winded.

 

If only our D could stay on the field all the time because Tyrod wins games more when he gets 100 yards not 200. SMH, if only the NFL was a defensive driven league and not a QB driven one. 

 

 Tyrod is not beating anyone on his own with his one or 2 score games, the D is doing more to cover for him in games he won, the team is winning in spite of him not because of him.

 

Hey he is 21-18, what a wonderful record as a starter. haha, at least Tyrod has a shot at finishing 23-21 before he is released, sadly and lucky for him he might not play the last two games to end up even at 21-21. I would  hate to see him go negative in the win loss if the team loses out. Not to worry I would imagine 3 straight losses will finish him off here and have Peterman back in to end the season.

I can agree with a lot you said. In fact when Tyrod got benched I felt the same. I felt the defense was the reason we won and even the turn overs they produced we're not capitalized. 

 

In the game against the Chiefs the bills got the ball tword the end with a chance to bleed clock and maybe score. Instead they decided to run 3 times and get stuffed only taking 12 seconds of the clock. 

 

The only thing I think this team "needs" is to never be like that again. You can't hand the ball back and give opponents another chance when you have the opportunity to take the game out of reach and steal all the time left.

 

The difference is how we come to the conclusion of why this offence has struggled. It sounds like you think Taylor is the weak link and I don't think it all rest on him. I think it's a lack of aggression in offensive philosophy as a whole. 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Lfod

[xRUSHx]

1 hour ago, Lfod said:

I can agree with a lot you said. In fact when Tyrod got benched I felt the same. I felt the defense was the reason we won and even the turn overs they produced we're not capitalized. 

 

In the game against the Chiefs the bills got the ball tword the end with a chance to bleed clock and maybe score. Instead they decided to run 3 times and get stuffed only taking 12 seconds of the clock. 

 

The only thing I think this team "needs" is to never be like that again. You can't hand the ball back and give opponents another chance when you have the opportunity to take the game out of reach and steal all the time left.

 

The difference is how we come to the conclusion of why this offence has struggled. It sounds like you think Taylor is the weak link and I don't think it all rest on him. I think it's a lack of aggression in offensive philosophy as a whole. 

 

 

Thanks man, I agree with the philosophy part but I do not blame the OC on it because this is Tyrods 3rd OC that had to simplify his system so Tyrod can run it. Roman was asked to push Tyrod to be more aggressive in his second season and got fired over it, now our OC again tried and he got forced to simplify it and is blamed for the fail just like Roman. I just can not see how it is the OC when it is the same fail over and over again by Tyrod.

 

Tyrod is a very limited QB in his reads, he can not audible because IMO he was trained to play as a backup QB in Baltimore. IMO he is still stuck in that philosophy of a backup QB, play like the starter is out, play it extra safe, protect your stats, run and rely on the D to do all the work. No OC can change that philosophy because he does not want to change it is how he is programed to be playing and IMO is most comfortable playing.

 

I do not know about you but I would like more from our starting QB, one that plays like a starter, one that can be a true QB, one that can audible, can throw the ball out quickly, can see over the line, one that fights for the win over padding stats, one that lead a team by helping them be better, accurate with his throws, can play the system laid out by the OC, one that can take some blame for a bad game, one that will not use the race card for his fail and one that can hit a big game(300 In regulation time) after almost 3 years of being a starter.

 

Not easy finding a franchise worthy QB, need to draft one of the top dogs in that class and hope he turns to gold. Finding a average though is pretty easy  considering the Fitz and Tyrod are on the same ground when it comes to not good enough IMO. At least the last average QB in Fitz could run the scheme he was given and did not need it to be Taylor made, sadly the average joe is not good enough. Cant wish for that one miracle season for over a decade and expect it to happen, I guess that's why we have the longest playoffless loser streak in all of sports, miracles rarely  happen.

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You are hoping so much for losses so that you’ll look less wrong than you have since you got here. You still don’t get it but that’s not news to anyone here.

 

The reason that I mentioned the defense stat is because it correlates to wins and losses. It actually matters. Hokie did the research earlier in this thread. 

I have been reading the thread and comments. I do not understand why you think I am wishing for losses, I love the Bills and want nothing more then success. I hate going to games and watching blowouts or losses, it makes the drive home suck and the next week at work suck even more. I do think we need to think about next years draft position but if they can sneak in the playoffs fine my god it has been so long but sadly I do not think it will happen this year.

 

I think your confusing my wanting better at QB with the "hate Tyrod" the COT group trys to label us fans with that want Tyrod replaced. I do not hate him I just want better. What  is really messed up is that it is not only the COT group that labels even Tyrod labels the fans that want him replaced as racist and that is far from the truth and just adds to why it is time to move on IMO.

Edited November 29, 2017 by xRUSHx

[Billsfan1972]

5 minutes ago, xRUSHx said:

Thanks man, I agree with the philosophy part but I do not blame the OC on it because this is Tyrods 3rd OC that had to simplify his system so Tyrod can run it. Roman was asked to push Tyrod to be more aggressive in his second season and got fired over it, now our OC again tried and he got forced to simplify it and is blamed for the fail just like Roman. I just can not see how it is the OC when it is the same fail over and over again by Tyrod.

 

Tyrod is a very limited QB in his reads, he can not audible because IMO he was trained to play as a backup QB in Baltimore. IMO he is still stuck in that philosophy of a backup QB, play like the starter is out, play it extra safe, protect your stats, run and rely on the D to do all the work. No OC can change that philosophy because he does not want to change it is how he is programed to be playing and IMO is most comfortable playing.

 

I do not know about you but I would like more from our starting QB, one that plays like a starter, one that can be a true QB, one that can audible, can throw the ball out quickly, can see over the line, one that fights for the win over padding stats, one that lead a team by helping them be better, accurate with his throws, can play the system laid out by the OC, one that can take some blame for a bad game, one that will not use the race card for his fail and one that can hit a big game(300 In regulation time) after almost 3 years of being a starter.

 

Not easy finding a franchise worthy QB, need to draft one of the top dogs in that class and hope he turns to gold. Finding a average though is pretty easy  considering the Fitz and Tyrod are on the same ground when it comes to not good enough IMO. At least the last average QB in Fitz could run the scheme he was given and did not need it to be Taylor made, sadly the average joe is not good enough. Cant wish for that one miracle season for over a decade and expect it to happen, I guess that's why we have the longest playoffless loser streak in all of sports, miracles rarely  happen.

I have been reading the thread and comments. I do not understand why you think I am wishing for losses, I love the Bills and want nothing more then success. I hate going to games and watching blowouts or losses, it makes the drive home suck and the next week at work suck even more. I do think we need to think about next years draft position but if they can sneak in the playoffs fine my god it has been so long but sadly I do not think it will happen this year.

And you really think Tyrod could audible the second half vs. Kc or that great three rush last drive?

 

Throw the damn ball.  It's what all good teams do.