The DEFENSE has simply quit - my question is WHY?

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, PABillsfan23 said:

17 more maybe?

 

Probably if McDermott and Beane get the five years their fanboys insist they deserve.

[T-Bomb]

17 hours ago, JinxedBill1 said:

The turnovers stopped.

 

Why can't more ppl see this?

 

Didn't some of us warn about this?

 

Maybe if you all stopped telling us to go root for the Patriots you could learn something once in a while and not be so surprised...

Edited November 26, 2017 by T-Bomb

[SoTier]

1 hour ago, Gigs said:

I think it has more to do with trading away Dareus than anything. Lazy, sure, but he was half the defense in his worst days.

 

People need to stop being so uptight about what players do off the field. Let the police handle real world ****. If Dareus was horrible and tricked OBD into that $100 mil contract then I’d be on board with the trade, but he was good regardless of how you feel about him. 

 

This team is trying to become the anti-Raiders or something. A team of good guys. Truth is you need edge and attitude to intimidate your opponent; 80% mental, 40% physical, lol.

 

The late 80s early 90s Bills were faaaaar from being good guys. All the best teams are full of self centered !@#$s. We had Watkins, Dareus and Shady....now one self centered star remains. 

 

Jauron Era 2.0; Electric Lunchpale Boogaloo

 

Well said, sir!   You have nailed it.       I said back in pre-season that McDermott reminded me too much of Jauron, and that's EXACTLY what the Bills have, and maybe worse.   Jauron at least had a consistent philosophy: play not to lose by too much.  I'm not sure what McDermott's philosophy is except "it's my way or the highway".   He sticks to it, however, even when it's obviously not working.

 

50 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I don't think they only want choir boys off the field, they are looking for character. And much how it was misunderstood back in the early 90's, it is being misunderstood now.

 

They are looking for guys who have "football" character. Guys who are in early and stay late, buy into the team concept, the 1/11th stuff. Guys that fight to the end no matter the situation or contract status. They did not feel Marcell had "football character"

 

Marv was the exact same way. If you believe Marv thought Kelly and crew went home to prayer meetings and cookies and milk you are not giving a hall of fame coach much credit. But he consistently talked about their character, and he meant on the field, as does McBeane in my mind.

 

Having said that, I liked Marcell, and everyone in first 5 rows of 335 kept telling me all Tampa game to shut up about how well he was playing! I get why they traded him, but do think it is hurting the D, but cantbe the only reason for this epic slide.

 

Dude, let me set the record straight here.  The Super Bowl Bills were not choirboys off or on the field ... or in the locker room.  They also weren't well known for what you describe as "football character", either.  Just the opposite.  Some wag nicknamed them "The Bickering Bills" IIRC.  They were a rowdy crowd, and they got into trouble, which tended to be covered up when it happened locally unlike today.  They even got into fights in the locker room ... which were reported.   Numerous members of the team got drunk regularly, used drugs, and smoked frequently, including during the season.

 

McDermott and Beane didn't think Dareus had "football character" because the Buffalo Bills wanted to dump his salary.   They had been trying to peddle him since well before OTAs which was before McDermott had any real opportunity to judge Dareus first hand and before Beane was even hired.   McDermott apparently decided back in March that Zach Brown, Mike Gillislee, Stephon Gilmore, Marquise Goodwin, and Robert Woods all either lacked the skill sets he wanted or weren't willing to buy into his system, too.  Such an astute talent and character evaluator, he doesn't even have to work with them to know they're not what he wants.

 

 

[ALF]

45 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Probably if McDermott and Beane get the five years their fanboys insist they deserve.

 

I'm not a believer yet, but getting another new HC and GM and scheme changes again would be a worse disaster imo.

 

Replacing some of his coaching staff would make more sense.

[gjv001]

The Defense lacks the talent to implement McDermott's system. The turnover luck ran out in the first quarter of the second Jets game. 

[SoTier]

3 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

I'm not a believer yet, but getting another new HC and GM and scheme changes again would be a worse disaster imo.

 

Replacing some of his coaching staff would make more sense.

 

The real problem with the Bills has been and continues to be that the real control of decisions about chosing players, keeping players, paying players, and apparently even playing players seems to reside higher up the food chain that Beane or McDermott.   That's been the case since Donahoe was fired in 2005, and that didn't change much when the Pegulas took over.   Beane is a largely a figurehead who is subservient to both his bosses at OBD and to McDermott on player matters just as Whaley was to his coaches.  Nix and Gailey were good ol' boys together who went back decades IIRC.

 

Nothing is really going to change on the Bills until/unless they have independent leadership -- with real power and only answerable to the owners -- from a "football guy" as was proposed to have Polian oversee the team.  As long as GM and HC are saddled with putting the interests of accountants and marketers ahead of winning, the Bills are going to wallow in the same "Pit of Misery" they been in for the last decade or so.

[klos63]

13 minutes ago, gjv001 said:

The Defense lacks the talent to implement McDermott's system. The turnover luck ran out in the first quarter of the second Jets game. 

The turnover 'luck' ended when teams realized they could just run all day and not risk throwing interceptions as often.

[Scott7975]

They haven't quit. They just aren't any good. Although I will say they use to be able to get to the ball and tackle at least. 

[klos63]

2 hours ago, Dunkirk Don said:

Nobody quit and dareus played poorly.  We came up with numerous turnovers and the luck has run out for a below average defense. Plain and simple let’s move on, no further discussion required on this topic period

Are you saying we were lucky to be able to stop other teams from running on us until recently?  Nothing has changed on the defense?

[Iron Maiden]

Not sure why it happened vs the Jets, but we can't ignore that we played 2 very good offenses in the Saints and Chargers...the quality of opponents has to be included somewhere in there....

[plenzmd1]

59 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Dude, let me set the record straight here.  The Super Bowl Bills were not choirboys off or on the field ... or in the locker room.  They also weren't well known for what you describe as "football character", either.  Just the opposite.  Some wag nicknamed them "The Bickering Bills" IIRC.  They were a rowdy crowd, and they got into trouble, which tended to be covered up when it happened locally unlike today.  They even got into fights in the locker room ... which were reported.   Numerous members of the team got drunk regularly, used drugs, and smoked frequently, including during the season.

 

McDermott and Beane didn't think Dareus had "football character" because the Buffalo Bills wanted to dump his salary.   They had been trying to peddle him since well before OTAs which was before McDermott had any real opportunity to judge Dareus first hand and before Beane was even hired.   McDermott apparently decided back in March that Zach Brown, Mike Gillislee, Stephon Gilmore, Marquise Goodwin, and Robert Woods all either lacked the skill sets he wanted or weren't willing to buy into his system, too.  Such an astute talent and character evaluator, he doesn't even have to work with them to know they're not what he wants.

 

 

 

What part of this statement indicated I thought the Bills of the glory years were pure as the driven snow

 

"If you believe Marv thought Kelly and crew went home to prayer meetings and cookies and milk you are not giving a hall of fame coach much credit. "

 

And going to the Super Bowl 4 years in a row is the very definition of football character, as well as all the comebacks over the years. Those dudes were mentally tough, and performed no matter if they just got paid or were in a contract year. And they bought 100% into Marv and his message

 

And you do understand that that whole crew you named in the bolded above were all free agents. And yes, it was his job to make those calls before bonuses and contracts are given out, and before any work is done with them in the offseason.

 

As I said in my post, I liked Marcell. But they decided to move on from him, and I don't think it mattered one iota what he did off the field( except maybe the fear of a 10 gamer in the future). It mattered he showed up late for a game in Baltimore and laughed it off. Might be the right decision, might be wrong, but it was made for football reasons and football reasons only, and absolutely getting out from that $10M guaranteed in 18 played a large role.

[CEN-CAL17]

WHAT I HAVE NOTICED.....

 

The Bills obviously play McDs zone scheme 80% of the time.

 

They will almost have the entire outside zones covered, in the Flat, mid depth and deep halves with the safeties.

 

Then there is the middle of the field...

 

Between the hashes, 10-20 yds. Preston Brown is terrible on 3rd downs. Doesn’t have the speed, quickness or instincts to cover the middle. Last week Chargers had 3rd and long, they went right up the middle. Brown threw his arms up in a hissy fit cause he got beat again.

 

Kelce might have a huge game because our middle zone, mid depth has been picked on all season. I wish McD would bring Hyde up to play a robber style in the middle giving our Defense more speed and play making ability over the middle.

 

Watch the middle on 3rd and long, watch Brown get picked on over the middle. It happens 8-9 times a game. That’s like 35-40% of pass attempts....

Edited November 26, 2017 by 1ZAYDAY1

[Buddy Hix]

I'm guessing it is a combination of trading away key players and starting unprepared QBs, all the while saying you are trying to win now....the players no longer believe the coach and McD has lost the room IMO.

 

I was willing to overlook a lot of the BS but the Peterman fiasco has completely soured me on McD and I expect I am not the only person. McD had better understand the consequences of his words and actions before him and Beane bring in the next group of players.

[PromoTheRobot]

I don't think they quit. I think the rest of the league figured them out and they don't have enough talent to adjust.

[BillsFan4]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

The real problem with the Bills has been and continues to be that the real control of decisions about chosing players, keeping players, paying players, and apparently even playing players seems to reside higher up the food chain that Beane or McDermott.   That's been the case since Donahoe was fired in 2005, and that didn't change much when the Pegulas took over.   Beane is a largely a figurehead who is subservient to both his bosses at OBD and to McDermott on player matters just as Whaley was to his coaches.  Nix and Gailey were good ol' boys together who went back decades IIRC.

 

Nothing is really going to change on the Bills until/unless they have independent leadership -- with real power and only answerable to the owners -- from a "football guy" as was proposed to have Polian oversee the team.  As long as GM and HC are saddled with putting the interests of accountants and marketers ahead of winning, the Bills are going to wallow in the same "Pit of Misery" they been in for the last decade or so.

 

So, who higher on the food chain told Beane to get rid of Sammy, Marcell etc? 

 

Are you saying that was a Russ Brandon decision? Or Overdorf (who gave Marcell that contract)? 

 

Thst doesnt make make any sense to me. Why would Russ Brandon want to trade away so much talent and rebuild the team? How do any of these recent decisions seem like marketing ones? I don't see it at all. 

Why would Overdorf want to get rid of the Marcell contract, which he just recently wrote (and will cost the Pegulas a bunch of money still, for a guy who isn't even here)? Wouldn't that make him look incompetent? 

 

And you think they are the ones deciding which players to play? Like who, Peterman? 

You are saying Russ Brandon said "hey we are currently in a playoff position, bench our starting QB for marketing reasons!"? 

 

I have no no idea where you are getting this stuff from... are you just making assumptions without any proof? If you were talking about the past, I'd agree. But where do you see the same old same old with this new regime? 

If you have anything to actually back up your opinion, please post it. 

 

I think this new regime is clearly in the drivers seat as far as decision making goes. 

The Bills seem to be running in a much different way than in the past.

 

Look at everything that's happened. They just about totally cleaned house. When has that EVER happened in the past 20 years? They'd scapegoat a coach or GM but never came anywhere close to cleaning house. They are trading away bunches of talented and recently drafted players to collect bunches of draft picks to build the team through the draft. When has that happened during the drought? 

 

McDermott and Beane are clearly in charge IMO. 

 

[Chadwick Bay Chad]

I thought we put an end to this thread.  One more time.  We were not very good to start with.  We got a ton of turnovers. The league caught up with us.  Let’s move on.

[Happy]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I don't think they quit. I think the rest of the league figured them out and they don't have enough talent to adjust.

 

Or a defensive coaching staff that wants to adjust.  We know the offense will not adjust from Dennison's rigid scheme, maybe Frazier is the same way.  Quite unfortunate, and that probably means that most, if not all, of the remaining Whaley era players will be gone by the time next season starts.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 11/25/2017 at 5:00 PM, Charles Romes said:

 

 

I agree that the numbers don't lie and are particularly stunning when cross referenced with the turnaround of Jacksonville's run D. There were some astute football savvy posters on this board who warned that Dareus was occupying multiple blockers each of his limited snaps and thus was earning his large salary.   These were lonely voices of wisdom it turns out and Dareus continued to be a punching bag for the fans and the media.   The most distressing thing is that the coaching staff and front office listened to the fans and the media and exaccerbated the piling on rather than capably evaluate Dareus' now clear dominant impact on the field.   

 

I think you're pairing two things in the bolded part there, that don't belong together.  The paradox of Dareus is that it's true he was no longer earning his large salary; he's basically a shell of the "Best DL in the league, Period" he was at one time.  At the same time, he was an important contributor to the Bills run D on the 40+% of the snaps he played, and it's suffering without him.  No longer the best DL in the league doesn't mean, no importance or worth as a player!  Analytics said the best course of action was offload his contract and take the cap hit now.  The goal of winning this year would have been better served by keeping him.

 

Good article here analyzing Dareus in our D and Jax.  (I have no association with Cover 1 other than I find their stuff on point and often education to me.)

12 hours ago, Dunkirk Don said:

I thought we put an end to this thread.  One more time.  We were not very good to start with.  We got a ton of turnovers. The league caught up with us.  Let’s move on.

 

Except, just because you say it one more time, doesn't mean it's an analysis that matches the facts.  We were, in the earlier part of the season, defending the run much better than in the 3-game series of "Ls", and if one looks at the film, one sees guys sticking tackles earlier in the season and missing them now.

 

It does go beyond turnovers.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Not today, hopefully the adjustments they made stick.