The DEFENSE has simply quit - my question is WHY?

[Foreigner]

It is called film study. New coaches with new schemes can do good for a few weeks (along with turnovers)

but after enough study, opposing people can tear apart the D, and so called geniuses game plans.

Then, once the defense knows how bad they are, they will not put out 100%. They are under contract

and want to protect their bodies, because they see trying won't work. That part is called self preservation.

[BigDingus]

It's a combination of depth, the Dareus trade, being on the field ALL THE TIME since the offense is pathetic, and injuries.

The Saints game for instance, they were on the field for 42 minutes compared to our offense being on the field for 18. And yes, the defense couldn't stop the run, but people forget they made a couple early stops including a turnover, but were immediately sent right back on the field. Every single time.

Our secondary has been hurt, Williams is old, Dareus ate up space even when he wasn't visible on the box stats, and now the Jags D has gone from really good to absolutely dominant. Think about it as if you were out there busting your ass for 5 minutes getting pounded, only to pour everything you got into making that last stop forcing a FG. Then as you're just starting to catch your breath, you're already being sent right back out there to do it all over. 

You can only do that so many times while seeing the score getting more and more out of reach as the offense fails to even get a 1st down. The margin for error on this team is extremely thin. Other teams can give up a TD or 2 and still believe they have a chance. Our team isn't able to overcome deficits of almost any kind, except on the rarest of occasion. Tyrod is 3-19 all time in games we go down by even a single point in the 4th quarter...so imagine being a defender down by 17 points at the start of the half, and knowing  you're going to spend 85% of the remainder of the game back on the field and be asked to keep it close.

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, Socal-805 said:

 

The Bills were 5-2 with one the top defenses in the league: # 1 points/game I believe.  Then the bottom drops out.

 

Why would the defense give up like that?  Tired of carrying the Tyrod led offense, protesting the Dareus trade?  Rejecting the Bills coaching?

 

What have they given up rushing yards, like 600-700 yards?  Why when the team had a realistic chance of making the playoffs?  Or so we thought.

 

 

I just don't understand what happened...

 

 

FYI:  I am not a new member, but could not login to the new site, so

 

Member since 2001?

 

 

It has nothing to do with quitting it has to do with simply not having enough talent. Especially after trading Dareus...say what you want but he required a constant double team so his presence alone let the team know where the double team was going and who it would be on.

 

Now teams can pick and choose who to double team on any given play or leave a guy single blocked and use the extra lineman to block a linebacker who used to be running free. Its pretty cut and dry in my view...the Bills were playing well on D until the moment they moved Dareus. Then they weren't.  They were playing well against the run and forcing teams into 3rd and longs. Now that rarely happens.

 

In addition teams got more tape on what the Bills were doing and devised ways to counteract that...Bills have had no answer so far to whatever that is...seemingly everything they are doing against us is working so it doesn't appear like it's one thing or another.  

 

When you get physically manhandled at the line of scrimmage it opens up pretty much anything for the other team and they have been takimg advantage of it..meanwhile Jags have had the best run D in football since Dareus has been there...coincidence? I think not.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by matter2003

[SoTier]

 

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

They havent quit. They just are not very good and the TOs that have been bailing them out have dried up

 

This.      "Buying into" the HC's "system" doesn't trump a lack of talent despite the manure the Bills FO and coaching staff have attempted, with some success, to feed to fans.

 

2 hours ago, mjt328 said:

1.  It can't just be offensive coordinators "figuring us out."  This team literally went from one of the NFL's elite during the first 6-7 games, to historically bad over the last 3 weeks.  I'm a big believer in strategy and game planning.  But things don't flip THAT much by simply spotting tendencies on film.

 

2.  It can't just be the loss of Marcel Dareus decreasing our talent on the D-Line.  For starters, Dareus wasn't playing a high percentage of snaps.  And most of the writers who study All-22 replays will quickly tell you that Dareus wasn't even playing well. 

 

3.  It can't just be the lack of turnovers.  Although the interceptions and fumbles were HUGE boosts for helping us win those close games, it doesn't explain why our defense can't even make teams punt anymore. 

 

4.  The idea they are "tired" because the offense isn't playing well (too many 3-outs) is absolutely ridiculous.  Against the Jets, Saints and Chargers, this defense has been getting gashed from the opening drive.  Fatigue may be an excuse in the 4th quarter.  But the Bills defense has already let up 35+ by that point.

 

 

 

From a fan watching from his television... I see a team that WAS aggressive and flying to the ball early in the season, but is now jogging and half-a$$ing it.  I see a team that WAS showing fantastic tackling technique and gang tackling opponents, but now uses arm tackles and poor technique.  I see a team that WAS quick off the snap, but is now getting blown off the ball.  To me, these are all very clear signs of a team that has quit. 

 

In my opinion, the REAL question isn't what happened (it's obvious from watching us play every Sunday).  The REAL question is why they quit.  Why did a team that was 5-2 and in full control of a playoff spot, decided to throw in the towel on a 1st-Year coach?  Did something happen behind the scenes that hasn't been reported?

 

Part of me wonders if the trade of Dareus did something to the morale of this team.  Unlike the Sammy Watkins/Ronald Darby trades, which actually netted high draft picks and starting caliber players in return, the Dareus trade was nothing more than a mid-season salary dump.  You have to wonder if that particular trade sent a message to the other veterans.  You could also question how the trade for Kelvin Benjamin was viewed in the locker room.  Here you have a coach that preaches family, but seems to want everyone from the "old guard" gone and jumps at the chance to bring in guys from his old team.

 

  Excellent post.  I think that you may have nailed the real impact of the Dareus trade dead-on: it had a tremendous psychological impact on the defense far beyond what his physical presence added to the defense based on however many snaps Dareus was given.  You may have also correctly assessed the impact of the Benjamin trade, too.

 

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

They have not quit.  They are being beat physically by more physically dominant teams.  It is juvenile to think professionals just quit.

 

Might want to do some reading in psychology.  It would open your mind.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, SoTier said:

 

 

This.      "Buying into" the HC's "system" doesn't trump a lack of talent despite the manure the Bills FO and coaching staff have attempted, with some success, to feed to fans.

 

 

  Excellent post.  I think that you may have nailed the real impact of the Dareus trade dead-on: it had a tremendous psychological impact on the defense far beyond what his physical presence added to the defense based on however many snaps Dareus was given.  You may have also correctly assessed the impact of the Benjamin trade, too.

 

 

Might want to do some reading in psychology.  It would open your mind.

 

 

I have.  Being dispirited because you're getting your butt kicked does not equal quitting.  These guys all know other teams are watching and that quitting affects their future job prospects.

[The Wiz]

They made it to the trade deadline and the remaining free agents are garbage so they know they have a paycheck for the next 2 months.

 

 

[Dablitzkrieg]

2 hours ago, Socal-805 said:

 

 

So all of the sudden, they realized they are not good players?  What about the 1st 7 games?

I believe TO's play a HUGE part in it as well.  I also believe Dareus not here hurts too.  But I stand by what I said.  The DL and LB's are not good.  Think about this for example.  I think the Bills had 6 sacks on Cam Newton.  Now, it appears as though the pass rush is gone as well.  I think KW has fallen off of a cliff.  Lorax is playing out of position.  Preston Brown is horrible and Humber has regressed.  I just think film on these guys has exposed them for what we really knew right-they significantly overachieved in the first 7 games.

2 hours ago, Socal-805 said:

 

 

[SoTier]

45 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I have.  Being dispirited because you're getting your butt kicked does not equal quitting.  These guys all know other teams are watching and that quitting affects their future job prospects.

 

You're denying that the concept of professional athletes "quitting" exists.  As fadingpain noted, it's been documented that it does.   You're taking the literal meaning of "quitting" and assuming athletes just decide they're going to slack off because there's nothing to play for.   That's generally not how it works.

 

Teams "quit" on coaches because several players at least on the team have become disillusioned with the coach, his coaching style, what his assistants are teaching, etc.  Feeling that way about coaches stress out athletes  because they've been conditioned to believe in their coaches, and it often affects their on field/court performance.  Psychological stress can affect job performance (among other things), whether you're a teacher or an accountant or a law enforcement officer or a professional athlete, and the sufferers don't have a whole lot of control over it because they're not making conscious decisions to do x or do y. 

 

I'm not saying that the Bills have "quit" on McDermott, but it is something that exists and can happen.

Edited November 26, 2017 by SoTier

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, Big C said:

 

To the point of the OP, I don't think the team quit necessarily, I just think holes in the defense are being exposed. 

Bingo. Our LBs have been exposed  (of their devoid of talent). Our DL has been very poor and the pass rushing has been non-existent.  Also, we have played some really good QBs in Rivers and Brees.  And when you give up 300 yards rush in a game, you are toast against these teams/

[Dadonkadonk]

What is so hard to figure out? They traded the best player on the DL.  The majority of run yardage given up has been right up the middle.  Dareus was not playing less he was playing more as the season went on.  That's because he has the body size and talent of an elite DL.  The others do not. Washington is a 3-4 DE not a 4-3 DT.  Kyle is done.  He has been a no-show all year.  

They traded the best player of the front 7 for cap space next year when they had the best chance at making the playoff in a decade.  That will be written in the first paragraph when analyzing why McDermott is let go at the end of 2018 season.  

 

[dulles]

6 hours ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

They spend ALOT of time on the field each week. More then the Offence. Just tired. 

 

6 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

The timing of the defense sucking works out well with the trade of Dareus, doesn't it?

 

I have no idea if they have really "quit" or if it is related to Dareus...but Sal C. has always insisted that Dareus was viewed favorably by his fellow teammates and he was considered a good locker room guy, despite the fact that he was not very popular with fans.

 

It's possible the group was disheartened when we gave away the best (*) player on the team for nothing in return.

 

 

 

(*) denotes best player on team when actually motivated to play to his fullest potential, which admittedly was not often.

 

 

I think it is a combination of these things...

1. You can't count on turnover differential to hold out unless you are truly special.

2. Dareus did make a difference, especially in run defense.

3. Lots of time on the field.  It is not just the physical time on the field.  It is also the mental burden of doubting your offense.  It leads to bad morale and lowered performance.  

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, Socal-805 said:

 

The defense has simply quit ... my question is why

  

 

That's not THE question or even A question.

 

They haven't quit, they've been getting their ass kicked. There's a major difference.

[Thurmal34]

In order to subscribe to the theory that either the D or for that matter the O “quit”, one must first believe that said unit was quality. Right?

 

In order to perform at a lower than expected level to establish “quitting”, one must believe that the “quitting” team is high quality and deliberately performing at a lower level than their expected capability for no other reason than spite for their coach. Therefore, it can only stand that a quitting team must inherently be of high quality and has made a conscious desision to not play up to the known standard of high quality that has been previously established.

 

Is that what you or anyone else subscribing to this “quit” theory believes?

 

If so, what evidence can you provide?

[ALF]

It's going to take years to rebuild this team to fit new schemes. 

[PABillsfan23]

14 minutes ago, ALF said:

It's going to take years to rebuild this team to fit new schemes. 

17 more maybe?

[315billsfan]

Ted Ginn Jr. deserves a game ball for his performance in the running game against the Buffalo Bills on Sunday.

The New Orleans Saints wide receiver didn’t have a single carry during the 47-10 win, but his presence on the field got the Saints running backs at least an extra 90 yards. He was the ultimate decoy, and the Bills never figured out how to adjust to his presence on the field.

Depending on your allegiance, you either laughed at how often New Orleans used the same motion to freeze the Buffalo linebackers and get the looks they wanted in the running game, or you cringed as the defense was manipulated by Ginn play after play. For whatever reason, this wrinkle unlocked something in the Bills defense and was one of the reasons the Saints rushed for 298 yards.

 

It started early. One of the first examples came with 7:46 remaining in the first quarter on a fourth-and-1 play. The Saints came out in “11 personnel,” with two receivers on one side of the formation and tight end Michael Hoomanawanui and wide receiver Willie Snead tight on the other. Ginn motioned toward the tight side of the formation, looping behind Mark Ingram.

The motion caused middle linebacker Lorenzo Alexander to get wide, which opened the middle of the field. He continued to spill out toward Hoomanawanui and Snead, expecting a sweep, as Drew Brees instead handed off to Ingram. With the middle of the field cleared, the Saints got double teams on both of Buffalo’s interior linemen, which opened a hole for Ingram to pick up 25 yards after breaking a couple tackles.

Ginn’s presence was felt in a big way in the second quarter when he again went in motion, this time right behind the line, which caused a linebacker to move inside the tackles. Linebacker Ramon Humber got caught watching the motion, keeping his eyes on Ginn after the snap, which allowed Brandon Coleman to get out and block him. A downfield block by offensive tackle Terron Armstead helped Alvin Kamara gain 9 yards.

The Saints liked this action so much they came back to it with 10:21 remaining in the third quarter. Ginn again went in motion, which caused Humber to move all the linebackers inside. With the whole defense shifting left, Brees faked to Ginn and pitched the ball to Kamara, who takes it around the edge for a gain of 19 yards behind blocks by guard Larry Warford, tackle Ryan Ramczyk and wide receiver Michael Thomas.

New Orleans used the same action on the very next play, and with the defense again moving left, Kamara took a pitch to the right and got into the end zone behind a block from tight end Josh Hill.

It looked like Buffalo attempted to adjust late in the quarter when Ginn went in motion and Humber followed him to the other side of the formation. The two inside linebackers also shifted spots, but the Saints caught Buffalo out of its gaps, and Ingram easily ran up the middle for a gain of 11 yards.

There are multiple examples of this, and New Orleans was even able to manipulate the Buffalo defense with simple tight end motion at times.

But the icing came when the Saints ran the same pitch to Kamara for a fourth time in the fourth quarter for a gain of 9 yards.

The New York Jets had similar success against the Bills with similar motions the week before, but coach Sean Payton said the Saints did not run the same plays. He did, however, note that New Orleans might have used Buffalo’s aggressiveness against it.

“We saw a good game (by the Jets), but it wasn’t anything in that specific game,” Payton said. “We’ve seen, obviously, all the tape. It’s an eight-week study. They’re an aggressive front. We got a couple different things that we didn’t see in the prior few weeks.”

This level of scheming is often seen in the New Orleans passing attack. It is known to attack specific weaknesses within a defense relentlessly. The same level of planning and attention to detail showed up in the rushing attack this week.

The Saints exposed something the rest of the league will see. Buffalo is going to have to find a way to clean it up before its next opponent uses motion to open up gulfs of space for its running backs.

[plenzmd1]

Please do not plagiarise whole articles or not give attribution to the authors of content like above. 

 

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/sports/saints/article_5982f56a-c94d-11e7-93ab-e7023260d2aa.html

 

 

[Chadwick Bay Chad]

Nobody quit and dareus played poorly.  We came up with numerous turnovers and the luck has run out for a below average defense. Plain and simple let’s move on, no further discussion required on this topic period

[Gigs]

I think it has more to do with trading away Dareus than anything. Lazy, sure, but he was half the defense in his worst days.

 

People need to stop being so uptight about what players do off the field. Let the police handle real world ****. If Dareus was horrible and tricked OBD into that $100 mil contract then I’d be on board with the trade, but he was good regardless of how you feel about him. 

 

This team is trying to become the anti-Raiders or something. A team of good guys. Truth is you need edge and attitude to intimidate your opponent; 80% mental, 40% physical, lol.

 

The late 80s early 90s Bills were faaaaar from being good guys. All the best teams are full of self centered !@#$s. We had Watkins, Dareus and Shady....now one self centered star remains. 

 

Jauron Era 2.0; Electric Lunchpale Boogaloo

[plenzmd1]

I don't think they only want choir boys off the field, they are looking for character. And much how it was misunderstood back in the early 90's, it is being misunderstood now.

 

They are looking for guys who have "football" character. Guys who are in early and stay late, buy into the team concept, the 1/11th stuff. Guys that fight to the end no matter the situation or contract status. They did not feel Marcell had "football character"

 

Marv was the exact same way. If you believe Marv thought Kelly and crew went home to prayer meetings and cookies and milk you are not giving a hall of fame coach much credit. But he consistently talked about their character, and he meant on the field, as does McBeane in my mind.

 

Having said that, I liked Marcell, and everyone in first 5 rows of 335 kept telling me all Tampa game to shut up about how well he was playing! I get why they traded him, but do think it is hurting the D, but cantbe the only reason for this epic slide.