Should the Pegulas Cash Out?

[CodeMonkey]

4 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

In a word, they have destroyed two sports franchises.

You lost me right here.  The Pegulas bought two very broken franchises.  Particularly the Bills.  Are they great or even good owners.  No.  But please don't revise history by saying the Bills were a good franchise when the Pegulas bought it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

30 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm not sure you are the worst poster on TSW......there are some really bad ones that just get less attention........but you've certainly fallen off a cliff in terms of quality of takes.......just atrocious. ("CTE in a living poster" was a great line by Kelly)

 

I don't think the Pegula's should sell the team but Coach Tuesday is dead on about their other issues and that being the case the exasperation is certainly understandable.

 

The most salient point in a post loaded with dead on assessments is probably how easily swayed they are in interviewing managerial candidates when they know nothing about the field they are hiring for.    When you run multi-faceted businesses you let people who understand how to hire for them do the work.   If you are the Mara's or the Rooney's you do it yourself.   If you are the Pegula's you should turn that over to someone who understands the game.......simple as that.

 

 

 

 

I humbly beseech you, all-knowing and all-wise BADOL...please enlighten those of us not in the know who this mythical mystical Czar is who will magically make the right decisions that luminaries like yourself and Coach Tuesday will be satisfied with.

 

I eagerly anticipate your ultra-informed response.

 

Baited breath. No, really.

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by joesixpack

[34-78-83]

The NFL owners as a group are far more clueless on the football side hires than some of you let on. And that's not a problem.

 

They need to provide, nothing more.

[Coach Tuesday]

8 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

You lost me right here.  The Pegulas bought two very broken franchises.  Particularly the Bills.  Are they great or even good owners.  No.  But please don't revise history by saying the Bills were a good franchise when the Pegulas bought it.

 

They were dysfunctional franchises that had begun accumulating talent, perhaps despite themselves.  That talent has been largely dismantled under the reigns of Murray and now McBeane a/k/a Pol Pot.

[freeagentqb]

I think there's a lot of luck in finding a quality Czar as well as in finding a quality coach.  Don't believe there's a foolproof guide for doing that.  Hell, If we brought Belihick here, he might fall on his face with our team less Brady.

[Lurker]

31 minutes ago, Shotgunner said:

 

Silly maybe...

 

But has been a decision maker for a team during the worst stretch of futility in our history. He is a marketer and has probably succeeded at that, but in the world of football ops he has been terrible by every metric. We keep being told he has no influence until it is proven he did, and he keeps getting promoted. Has been a (very bad) GM, has made (very bad) personnel decisions as well as having major influence on all GM and HC hires for more than a decade.

 

I would argue it's silly to go to bat for someone who has been terrible for that many years.

 

Curse or not, the fact that he still works here, especially in a high position, is absolutely rediculous.

 

Psychologists? Lol Displacement maybe if he had no fault. He is directly responsible for many problems, and involved in many others.

Any player personnel input Russ had was for 1-2 years at most during the Marv II GM experiment.   He acknowledged his limitations as a 'football man' but stepped into the role at Ralph's insistence, so Wilson (as with so much about the Bills) was the root problem.    The issues with this team run much deeper than than anything Brandon did--or did not--do over the past two decades.   

 

And BTW, Russ is the most accomplished guy the Bills have had in terms of actually doing his job.   That's not even open for debate, given his track record of selling seats to a bad product for so many years....

[Lofton80]

They are the best thing that could have ever happened to Buffalo. Give it some time.

[Coach Tuesday]

46 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

The NFL owners as a group are far more clueless on the football side hires than some of you let on. And that's not a problem.

 

They need to provide, nothing more.

 

I don’t pretend to believe that NFL and NHL owners inherently know how to navigate the complex industries they operate in.  Some get it innately because they’re extremely savvy businesspeople.  The good ones learn it eventually but usually after some trial and error.  The best ones know how to ask the right questions of the right people at the right times.  The Pegulas strike me as insulated novices who tend to follow their “guts” more often than not.

 

Rex and McD have very little in common EXCEPT that I can see both of them oozing confidence during the interview process.  Both men could steelily stare the Pegulas in the eyes and say, confidently and with a clenched jaw or a fist on the table for effect, “Don’t worry, I got this.  I can turn this around.”  And then Kim turns to Terry on the way out of the interview and says, “I don’t know, something about him just really reassured me.  It feels like he’s the one who can fix this thing.”

 

Billion dollar businesses shouldn’t work that way.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Coach Tuesday

[KD in CA]

Maybe if Trump doesn't run for re-election he'll still be willing to pay $1B for the Bills.

[Helpmenow]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

Maybe some of you should cash out as fans?  Just sayin’. 

How long have been a fan? Honestly tell

[GG]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

This is a great post and it provides useful context.  My concern is that they've endorsed a strategy for the Bills, at least, that seems unnecessarily to set this team back 3-5 years when it was on the cusp of contending.  But I hear you that if the team had started as slowly as many of us expected, much of the anger would be nonexistent.  Good take.

 

So Pegula's followed the wrong path by pouring money into an underachieving Sabres roster that was on the verge of playoffs in 2012 AND they're following the wrong path by gutting an underachieving Bills roster that was on the verge of playoffs in 2016?

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, GG said:

 

So Pegula's followed the wrong path by pouring money into an underachieving Sabres roster that was on the verge of playoffs in 2012 AND they're following the wrong path by gutting an underachieving Bills roster that was on the verge of playoffs in 2016?

 

Theyre following the wrong path by constantly letting themselves get talked into things instead of studying the business like it’s their dissertation before making these decisions and/or turning over the management of both teams to experienced and qualified strategic executives.

[GG]

2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Theyre following the wrong path by constantly letting themselves get talked into things instead of studying the business like it’s their dissertation before making these decisions and/or turning over the management of both teams to experienced and qualified strategic executives.

 

Should part of Pegula's decision to sell take into account Maureen Babcock's refusal to move to Buffalo?

[K-9]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

The difference between Buffalo and NE is they got lucky in the 6th round and won a lottery ticket QB

 

That's it.

 

They can do anything they want because Brady just wins. So they are geniuses and so organized and model organization.

 

This is a ridiculous thread. I worry that the Pegulas will get discouraged and pull the plug. Then we can kiss the Bills goodbye, pretty much guaranteed.

They also have the best football mind in history at the helm. Love him or hate him, Belichick knows how to leverage every in game situation to the maximum benefit. It's not always apparent nor does he display it only in crucial, crunch time situations; it starts from the opening kickoff. Case in point, he starts managing the clock from his first possession on and adjusts throughout depending on what kind of lead he does or doesn't have and by how much or how little. And nobody is else is in his ballpark when it comes to playing the matchup game. Not even close. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, K-9 said:

They also have the best football mind in history at the helm. Love him or hate him, Belichick knows how to leverage every in game situation to the maximum benefit. It's not always apparent nor does he display it only in crucial, crunch time situations; it starts from the opening kickoff. Case in point, he starts managing the clock from his first possession on and adjusts throughout depending on what kind of lead he does or doesn't have and by how much or how little. And nobody is else is in his ballpark when it comes to playing the matchup game. Not even close. 

Belichick was nearly toast in New England and who knows if he'd have gotten another chance at coaching. Tom Brady saved his career.

 

[PrimeTime101]

Its very rare that new staff can turn a professional team around to there ideals in one year. I want to see what both teams do going into next year before I sell out on an owner that everyone was so happy to get because he kept the teams in Buffalo...

 

For me... To sell out on the ownership is like selling out on the teams being in Buffalo... I am not there yet and wont be. Just wondering? how many owners were running to the Bills to buy the team and keep them in Buffalo?

 

easy answer

 

not many.

[K-9]

Just now, joesixpack said:

Belichick was nearly toast in New England and who knows if he'd have gotten another chance at coaching. Tom Brady saved his career.

 

Sure, Brady's part of that equation no doubt; the most important part. But that doesn't take away anything else about Belichick's ability as a coach. Greatest football mind in history, I'm convinced of it. He's playing chess while everybody else plays checkers. It's just too obvious week in and week out, year in and year out. He's evolved over time. He's not the same coach he was when he started. 

[BigPappy]

3 hours ago, corta765 said:

I don't disagree that with each franchise for a time they started in over their heads but I fundamentally disagree that they have no idea currently and have poor org structures. Objectively it goes like this:

 

Bills:

Previously: Bought the team in 14 let things play out. Sided with the wrong person in the Whaley-Marrone fight forcing Marrone-Schwartz & potential Bills Czar Polian out. So yep they chose poorly there. Rex hire in a vacuum made sense at the time given his reputation with defense, defense's talent, and the hype it brought the Bills. For the record Rex wasn't my guy I wanted K. Shanahan or Schwartz but didn't mind the hire either. You are correct that the org structure was whack and Whaley always seemed to be on borrowed time even when things were at their best. However the Bills with the Pegula's as owner did go 9-7 in 14' and 8-8 in 15' just missing the playoffs both seasons. While not great I wouldn't say they wrecked things either. 16 was a tire fire and they did the smart thing to clean house completely.

 

Currently: They have a GM and coach who see eye to eye and share one vision the whole way through which did not exist with Whaley and either coach. If you remember Beane got some really highly regarded personnel people including Brian Gaine as VP of Player Personnel a guy most people figured would get a GM job not move to that role which frankly was just a lateral move. I think if the team had started 2-5 and was at 5-5 currently or even 3-7 people would be far less critical with the current roster/play myself included. But in regards to the organization its pretty much setup like every other team out there Owner->GM->Coach. Owner has been writing checks and letting those guys do their work for better or worse. Additionally Beane hasn't even had an offseason to work yet so lets give him a bit of time. Even with Darby, Sammy, & Dareus this team is maybe a game better W/L wise and long term still needs a QB with way less cap space to work with. I just posted an post yesterday stating that the 5 picks and cap space they have in 18 is crucial to setting the foundation for the future and that is what we really need to judge.

 

Sabres:

I would agree Terry was far more heavy handed and made greater mistakes. They should've restarted at the end of 2011, but making the playoffs jaded everything and he thought throwing money could fix problems. Mix in he did approve tanking for McDavid/Eichel and you have what you have. That said the Sabres again have a pretty normal org structure J Botts->Housley its just going to take time to fix the last 3 years of mess. Botterill is one of the most highly respected personnel guys in hockey and Housley was a younger coach that a lot of teams also wanted. Additionally they had just fired Bylsma who had a cup and tons of experience and just about everyone clamored for someone new and different so I'm not sure what could be done to satisfy the masses.

 

So yes if you want to stay at the start with each team they were too involved and over their head at points I would agree especially with the Sabres. But currently for both teams they have sat back and let their people do what they can for better or worse. The Sabres need 2 more seasons before they realistically are a playoff team if the kids develop. The Bills harder to say because if you hit on a QB in this draft it changes a lot quickly and if they can get 4-5 new additions on defense between the draft and FA that should shore up the sizeable holes they have.

 

I know people hate to hear this but a lot of sports frankly is luck. If the Bills drafted Big Ben instead of Losman we don't have a drought and the Pegula's seem like stable owners. If the Sabres get McDavid & Ekblad they probably get Babcock, another big FA addition, and their trajectory is far different. Without getting lucky along the way the best thing an owner can do is be patient and stay out of the way. As other posters have said they seemed to have learned that with both teams and cut their losses the last 2 years to setup org structures that replicate other teams while infusing the areas they can with money and as much resources as possible. The hardest part is right now which is to sit, wait, and be patient I'm sorry to say. If you want to back down your fandom for a bit I wouldn't blame you in the least, I went from having seasons to going to 3 games this year and next year probably down to 2. I'll still watch every game but I'm in a prove it mode for both teams.

 

Probably one of the most articulated and well written posts that I have read in a long time and imo probably the most accurate account of what Beane and McD are working towards. Fans are just frustrated and impatient. As for the Sabres,  I don't follow hockey anymore so I can't speak to the Sabres issues. 

 

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

That's the issue many fans have. 

 

In today's NFL, a 4 or even 3 year rebuild is COMPLETELY unnecessary. You can turn around a franchise in one to two years. These guys are purging everything for no reason. The good young talent to work with has been traded away... again for petty reasoning. Shows a lot of arrogance and as I've said before, basically every personnel move the new guys have made this far has been bad. 

 And how do you figure trading away Watkins, Dareus and Darby were for petty reasons? That idea is ridiculous and proven by their "accomplishments" since they left. Watkins and Darby have done nothing of note and Dareus was a cash cow who was phoning in half his on the field performance...when he was on the field. Not to mention an off the field thorn in Bills side.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, joesixpack said:

 

No we did not.

 

Whaley was a GREAT scout and a lousy GM. He put us behind the 8-ball contractually with Dareus, and that's only one of his numerous failures. Second worst was spending two firsts on a WR for a QB that clearly wasn't the answer. Those two moves alone were fireable offenses.

 

 

 

If I recall correctly, prior to buying the Bills Terry Pegula owned or held a large stake in the sports agency where Dareus' agent was employed...........divested from that company to buy the Bills..........then that agent got a generously written contract for his client.  

 

 

 

 

[Jamie Muellers Ghost]

I thought it will happen give it 5-10 years. They do not seem to want anything to do with a new stadium despite the league saying otherwise every chance they get let alone the headaches on and off the field. But then I remember reading the Kim is the real football fan and perhaps she and the family will want to keep it.