Should the Pegulas Cash Out?

[The Crowing Rooster]

TRUST THE PROCESS!

[Doc]

Maybe some of you should cash out as fans?  Just sayin’. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

Maybe some of you should cash out as fans?  Just sayin’. 

 

Yes, that's the solution Doc.  Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

I reread your post... and yea still seems that way. 

 

Your act as if Bills fans have nothing to B word about and those who do are ungrateful. 

 

Whaley is gone. The new guys cleaned house and have a pile of picks to use this upcoming draft. Chances are there will be plenty to B word about soon, if you can't wait then it's more than likely you are bitching just to B word.

 

Watkins hasn't gone on to have some crazy season, nor has Darby who just returned from injury. The Dareus contract was once deemed untradeable, they managed to move it off the books. The thing that lit the torches was the fast start this season, go back and remember this seasons expectations from posters who actually have a clue. Most of those guys were  predicting 4-7 wins. Exactly where the team is headed. They simply aren't good and this was never going to be a quick fix.

 

You can B word and moan about these guys making decisions to change the teams direction in the long term because that's easy to do. Shirley the team would have been better if they kept the blue chip malcontents, short term.

 

Stop Bitching Shirley and let things shake out a bit. 

[May Day 10]

11 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I agree the NHL did not want to lose the Sabres, but they weren't going to prop us up forever either.

 

It was scary.  Got really scary the night Hammister's team/bid fell apart (which probably was a great thing in hind-sight).  I had started to try to come to terms with the fact that the Sabres were going to move.

 

Golisano did a good thing.  He ended up making some money, but he came in and bought the (financially struggling, non-solvent) team, just before the labor fight.  The team was managed quite well.  

 

I always did have the feeling though he wasn't in it for the long haul, and he resented the fans and media for the backlash he got when the team struggled.  Was always nervous for what was next.  I never thought he would sell to anyone who would move the team.... but how long would he be willing to hold out before selling to someone he was maybe 75% sure would keep the team here?  

 

 

Outside of Pegula.... who owns these teams?  What local money?  I would say the Riches, but it really isnt their style.  Bob is kind of a frugal guy to be honest (for a skyrocketing billionaire) and if they were interested, I think they would have checked in with the Sabres in 2002 and Bills after Wilson passed. 

[corta765]

I don't disagree that with each franchise for a time they started in over their heads but I fundamentally disagree that they have no idea currently and have poor org structures. Objectively it goes like this:

 

Bills:

Previously: Bought the team in 14 let things play out. Sided with the wrong person in the Whaley-Marrone fight forcing Marrone-Schwartz & potential Bills Czar Polian out. So yep they chose poorly there. Rex hire in a vacuum made sense at the time given his reputation with defense, defense's talent, and the hype it brought the Bills. For the record Rex wasn't my guy I wanted K. Shanahan or Schwartz but didn't mind the hire either. You are correct that the org structure was whack and Whaley always seemed to be on borrowed time even when things were at their best. However the Bills with the Pegula's as owner did go 9-7 in 14' and 8-8 in 15' just missing the playoffs both seasons. While not great I wouldn't say they wrecked things either. 16 was a tire fire and they did the smart thing to clean house completely.

 

Currently: They have a GM and coach who see eye to eye and share one vision the whole way through which did not exist with Whaley and either coach. If you remember Beane got some really highly regarded personnel people including Brian Gaine as VP of Player Personnel a guy most people figured would get a GM job not move to that role which frankly was just a lateral move. I think if the team had started 2-5 and was at 5-5 currently or even 3-7 people would be far less critical with the current roster/play myself included. But in regards to the organization its pretty much setup like every other team out there Owner->GM->Coach. Owner has been writing checks and letting those guys do their work for better or worse. Additionally Beane hasn't even had an offseason to work yet so lets give him a bit of time. Even with Darby, Sammy, & Dareus this team is maybe a game better W/L wise and long term still needs a QB with way less cap space to work with. I just posted an post yesterday stating that the 5 picks and cap space they have in 18 is crucial to setting the foundation for the future and that is what we really need to judge.

 

Sabres:

I would agree Terry was far more heavy handed and made greater mistakes. They should've restarted at the end of 2011, but making the playoffs jaded everything and he thought throwing money could fix problems. Mix in he did approve tanking for McDavid/Eichel and you have what you have. That said the Sabres again have a pretty normal org structure J Botts->Housley its just going to take time to fix the last 3 years of mess. Botterill is one of the most highly respected personnel guys in hockey and Housley was a younger coach that a lot of teams also wanted. Additionally they had just fired Bylsma who had a cup and tons of experience and just about everyone clamored for someone new and different so I'm not sure what could be done to satisfy the masses.

 

So yes if you want to stay at the start with each team they were too involved and over their head at points I would agree especially with the Sabres. But currently for both teams they have sat back and let their people do what they can for better or worse. The Sabres need 2 more seasons before they realistically are a playoff team if the kids develop. The Bills harder to say because if you hit on a QB in this draft it changes a lot quickly and if they can get 4-5 new additions on defense between the draft and FA that should shore up the sizeable holes they have.

 

I know people hate to hear this but a lot of sports frankly is luck. If the Bills drafted Big Ben instead of Losman we don't have a drought and the Pegula's seem like stable owners. If the Sabres get McDavid & Ekblad they probably get Babcock, another big FA addition, and their trajectory is far different. Without getting lucky along the way the best thing an owner can do is be patient and stay out of the way. As other posters have said they seemed to have learned that with both teams and cut their losses the last 2 years to setup org structures that replicate other teams while infusing the areas they can with money and as much resources as possible. The hardest part is right now which is to sit, wait, and be patient I'm sorry to say. If you want to back down your fandom for a bit I wouldn't blame you in the least, I went from having seasons to going to 3 games this year and next year probably down to 2. I'll still watch every game but I'm in a prove it mode for both teams.

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I agree with everything that you are saying in terms of their competence as owners. There is nothing to support that they are anything but clueless.

 

With that being said, I see no chance that they sell? Why would they? This wasn’t a money making proposition for them. They have plenty of that. This was what Uber-rich people buy when they get the chance. This is a passion for them. They have no motivation to sell. I just hope that they are smart enough to hire the right people. So far their track record on both teams is abysmal at best.

If only there was a poster, who knew this years ago, and got laughed at for talking czar.

[corta765]

25 minutes ago, teef said:

call me crazy, but i at least want to see what happens with the draft, the off season, and next year before i crucify the bills.  i enjoy the sabres, but i just don't watch enough to have a valid opinion about them.  the pegulas want to win and are certainly willing to spend if needed.  they just have to figure out management.  

 

Agreed. The worst thing that happened this season was starting 5-2 because it got people excited. If they were 3-7 right now people would be more focused on the offseason and what their building.

[Jerry Jabber]

You make great points, but I disagree that they should sell one or both franchises. The Pegula's are new to owning/running sports franchises and we are going through "growing pains" with them as they figure things out. We have to grin and bear it until they've finally find the right solution(s).

[CommonCents]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Outscored 135-55. 

 

Last 3 games. I'm bitching just to B word.??

 

Nothing to B word about. Couple of nobodies dumped our best players all in the name of process.... 

 

This team was never going to be good. You knew that. I'm not going back through all the posts. I'm sure you were right on board with the rest of us. I remember saying specifically this a bottom 5 D before the season started.

 

look at the depth chart. It's a joke. If you're going to sit here and tell me a disinterested Dareus was going to morph that surrounding cast into a decent unit save your breath.

 

Greg Berdard said of the fast start, wait until the other teams can digest some film and then see what it looks like. Well.....

 

None of this is a surprise. People are just sick of the losing and want to kick and scream, the roster sucks. Remember spending countless hours discussing Whaley and how bad he was at drafting? That's all out the window now because the new guys didn't bring a big bottle of instawins? Come on maaaaan...

[K D]

they should have hired a czar and then went back to Florida and sat back and watched like everyone else.  they are too involved and understandably they have no idea what they are doing.  Pegula is good at drilling holes.  nobody expects him to also be good at running sports franchises.  they did try to hire Polian and he turned them down.  they at least had a discussion with Coughlin.  not sure why they didn't try to get anyone else.  they hired a coach with zero head coaching experience at any level.  then they hired the GM which seems backwards.  maybe if they had the GM before the draft they would have been able to pull the trigger on one of the QB's.  Both Watson and Mahomes were available and look a lot better than anything we have.  now they are forced to draft a QB this year and by the time they pick there might not be any that they like.  2 more years of this and we will be back starting from scratch again.  i hope before then they wise up and get someone to run the sports side of things and they back off.

[BigPappy]

OP, why do you care who owns the team? does it affect your life as to who owns the team? I for one don't care who bought the team as long as it stayed in Buffalo. The Pagulas came in on a white horse and kept the team from leaving buffalo. So in my book, and in the books of many, many fans, as long as the Pagulas are trying to field a winning team and keep striving to hire good coaches and solid players I will continue to support their ownership in any way that I can. No matter how small or insignificant my show of support is. The Pagulas not only love the city of Buffalo, but they also love the Buffalo Bills. They are not selling the team...no way, no how. Especially when they are making money and filling the stands.

[Coach Tuesday]

10 minutes ago, corta765 said:

I don't disagree that with each franchise for a time they started in over their heads but I fundamentally disagree that they have no idea currently and have poor org structures. Objectively it goes like this:

 

Bills:

Previously: Bought the team in 14 let things play out. Sided with the wrong person in the Whaley-Marrone fight forcing Marrone-Schwartz & potential Bills Czar Polian out. So yep they chose poorly there. Rex hire in a vacuum made sense at the time given his reputation with defense, defense's talent, and the hype it brought the Bills. For the record Rex wasn't my guy I wanted K. Shanahan or Schwartz but didn't mind the hire either. You are correct that the org structure was whack and Whaley always seemed to be on borrowed time even when things were at their best. However the Bills with the Pegula's as owner did go 9-7 in 14' and 8-8 in 15' just missing the playoffs both seasons. While not great I wouldn't say they wrecked things either. 16 was a tire fire and they did the smart thing to clean house completely.

 

Currently: They have a GM and coach who see eye to eye and share one vision the whole way through which did not exist with Whaley and either coach. If you remember Beane got some really highly regarded personnel people including Brian Gaine as VP of Player Personnel a guy most people figured would get a GM job not move to that role which frankly was just a lateral move. I think if the team had started 2-5 and was at 5-5 currently or even 3-7 people would be far less critical with the current roster/play myself included. But in regards to the organization its pretty much setup like every other team out there Owner->GM->Coach. Owner has been writing checks and letting those guys do their work for better or worse. Additionally Beane hasn't even had an offseason to work yet so lets give him a bit of time. Even with Darby, Sammy, & Dareus this team is maybe a game better W/L wise and long term still needs a QB with way less cap space to work with. I just posted an post yesterday stating that the 5 picks and cap space they have in 18 is crucial to setting the foundation for the future and that is what we really need to judge.

 

Sabres:

I would agree Terry was far more heavy handed and made greater mistakes. They should've restarted at the end of 2011, but making the playoffs jaded everything and he thought throwing money could fix problems. Mix in he did approve tanking for McDavid/Eichel and you have what you have. That said the Sabres again have a pretty normal org structure J Botts->Housley its just going to take time to fix the last 3 years of mess. Botterill is one of the most highly respected personnel guys in hockey and Housley was a younger coach that a lot of teams also wanted. Additionally they had just fired Bylsma who had a cup and tons of experience and just about everyone clamored for someone new and different so I'm not sure what could be done to satisfy the masses.

 

So yes if you want to stay at the start with each team they were too involved and over their head at points I would agree especially with the Sabres. But currently for both teams they have sat back and let their people do what they can for better or worse. The Sabres need 2 more seasons before they realistically are a playoff team if the kids develop. The Bills harder to say because if you hit on a QB in this draft it changes a lot quickly and if they can get 4-5 new additions on defense between the draft and FA that should shore up the sizeable holes they have.

 

I know people hate to hear this but a lot of sports frankly is luck. If the Bills drafted Big Ben instead of Losman we don't have a drought and the Pegula's seem like stable owners. If the Sabres get McDavid & Ekblad they probably get Babcock, another big FA addition, and their trajectory is far different. Without getting lucky along the way the best thing an owner can do is be patient and stay out of the way. As other posters have said they seemed to have learned that with both teams and cut their losses the last 2 years to setup org structures that replicate other teams while infusing the areas they can with money and as much resources as possible. The hardest part is right now which is to sit, wait, and be patient I'm sorry to say. If you want to back down your fandom for a bit I wouldn't blame you in the least, I went from having seasons to going to 3 games this year and next year probably down to 2. I'll still watch every game but I'm in a prove it mode for both teams.

 

This is a great post and it provides useful context.  My concern is that they've endorsed a strategy for the Bills, at least, that seems unnecessarily to set this team back 3-5 years when it was on the cusp of contending.  But I hear you that if the team had started as slowly as many of us expected, much of the anger would be nonexistent.  Good take.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Coach Tuesday

[teef]

11 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Agreed. The worst thing that happened this season was starting 5-2 because it got people excited. If they were 3-7 right now people would be more focused on the offseason and what their building.

absolutely.  this team just wasn't the good from the get go, (not that i knew that at the time) and it just ended up being a giant tease.  fans aren't happy which is understandable, but it's really about the future, and hopefully securing a qb that can hold the position for a decade plus.  then maybe this team can be build properly.  this year was a big nothing.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, teef said:

absolutely.  this team just wasn't the good from the get go, (not that i knew that at the time) and it just ended up being a giant tease.  fans aren't happy which is understandable, but it's really about the future, and hopefully securing a qb that can hold the position for a decade plus.  then maybe this team can be build properly.  this year was a big nothing.  

 

Stop making sense, damn you.

 

[Lurker]

57 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

Since they bought the Sabres, they have rejected experienced eyes and management. 

Revisionist history.    Craig Patrick was one of the most experienced hockey men in the NHL:    

 

https://www.nhl.com/bluejackets/news/craig-patrick-accepts-position-with-buffalo-sabres/c-699794

 

Tim Murray was a great GM pick according to all media reports, hockey analysts and the majority of Sabres fans:

 

https://www.si.com/nhl/home-ice/2014/01/09/pat-lafontaine-shows-genius-in-hiring-tim-murray-as-buffalo-sabres-new-gm

 

The worst aspect of TSW is how so many posters revise history when things don't pan out.    There was significant enthusiasm and support for the Sabres and Bills hires--and not acknowledging as much is two-faced simple mindedness... 

[PromoTheRobot]

34 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I reread your post... and yea still seems that way. 

 

Your act as if Bills fans have nothing to B word about and those who do are ungrateful. 

No, I'm just tried of having to read and listen to endless bitching. Getting rid of the owners isn't going to magically change things. All it will do is cause the teams to leave. Anyone who doesn't believe that is delusional.

34 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

"The world" doesn't owe Buffalo fans anything.  But they've been forking over their hard-earned dollars to billionaires for years and can't even demand a competent product in return?  I have more pride than you do - I'm not "grateful" to anyone except my Creator.  I'm certainly not grateful to billionaires.

Who held a gun to people's heads ordering then to fork over money for the Bills and Sabres? If you did and you're not happy with the result, then stop doing it.

Edited November 21, 2017 by PromoTheRobot

[May Day 10]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Revisionist history.    Craig Patrick was one of the most experienced hockey men in the NHL:    

 

https://www.nhl.com/bluejackets/news/craig-patrick-accepts-position-with-buffalo-sabres/c-699794

 

Tim Murray was a great GM pick according to all media reports, hockey analysts and the majority of Sabres fans:

 

https://www.si.com/nhl/home-ice/2014/01/09/pat-lafontaine-shows-genius-in-hiring-tim-murray-as-buffalo-sabres-new-gm

 

The worst aspect of TSW is how so many posters revise history when things don't pan out.    There was significant enthusiasm and support for the Sabres and Bills hires--and not acknowledging as much is two-faced simple mindedness... 

 

They chased LaFontaine and Patrick out after about 5 minutes (all secret behind closed doors which reeks of petty nonsense brought on by poor management structure)

 

Then the steering wheel was given to an under-qualified Murray (whose demeanor showed plainly he wasn't capable of being the HMIC).  I was irate when the LaFontaine firing/resignation went down and panned Murray and Pegula's management pretty bad.  If I cared to, and if anyone cared (which they dont) I could provide proof of it on a Sabres board I frequent.  Nothing revisionist there.

 

Now the team is a smoldering husk.

[teef]

23 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Outscored 135-55. 

 

Last 3 games. I'm bitching just to B word.??

 

Nothing to B word about. Couple of nobodies dumped our best players all in the name of process.... 

you have to admit scott, you do just B word for the sake of bitching.  it's kinda your thing.

9 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Stop making sense, damn you.

 

this is what i'm clinging on to.  this team is been a mess forever.  i know people want an immediate turnaround, but it likely isn't going to work out that way.  not that i want to see a disaster over the next couple of years.  i'd expect this team to take focus over the next two year, and likely in year three, we start to see what's actually planned.  it might not work out, but we're here for the ride whether people like it or not.

[PromoTheRobot]

33 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

It was scary.  Got really scary the night Hammister's team/bid fell apart (which probably was a great thing in hind-sight).  I had started to try to come to terms with the fact that the Sabres were going to move.

 

Golisano did a good thing.  He ended up making some money, but he came in and bought the (financially struggling, non-solvent) team, just before the labor fight.  The team was managed quite well.  

 

I always did have the feeling though he wasn't in it for the long haul, and he resented the fans and media for the backlash he got when the team struggled.  Was always nervous for what was next.  I never thought he would sell to anyone who would move the team.... but how long would he be willing to hold out before selling to someone he was maybe 75% sure would keep the team here?  

 

 

Outside of Pegula.... who owns these teams?  What local money?  I would say the Riches, but it really isnt their style.  Bob is kind of a frugal guy to be honest (for a skyrocketing billionaire) and if they were interested, I think they would have checked in with the Sabres in 2002 and Bills after Wilson passed. 

That's why it's mind blowing people think they are just going to find someone better than the Pegulas. They are 100% the opposite of Ralph Wilson. They aren't afraid to spend money on a market where they have no hope of recouping their investment. Are the results what we want? No. But it's not for a lack of spending or desire. 

 

This drought has become a vortex of madness.

Edited November 21, 2017 by PromoTheRobot