Lets get crazy--Andrew Luck

[fridge]

23 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

It's nothing to do with my opinion on New England though . It's a fact they had a stacked team because they won the super bowl that year when Bledsoe went down. That's pretty unarguable. 

 

Its also really not my opinion on the talent on the colts. They were 8 and 7 with him last year and are now 3 and 11 this year . With basically the same team. That's also a fact and nothing to do with my opinion.

 

That is 4 to 6 wins difference for one player . Massive differential 

 

My opinion is the colts team around him is awful And I'm basing that opinion on their record with vs. Without him, and also the lack of players and coaching around him.

 

If you can suggest anything that the Colts would be even half competent without luck over the last 5 years, I would be very interested to hear it

 

 

 

How old are you? You do realize that Bledsoe played in a Super Bowl in 96 right? Your argument about the team talent is ridiculous and makes me think you don't remember that era very well. From Wikipedia:

 

Under his tenure as starting quarterback, the Patriots ended an eight-season postseason drought, qualified for the playoffs six times, and made one Super Bowl appearance. In his second season with the team, he was named to the 1995 Pro Bowland was the youngest quarterback to appear in the NFL's all-star game at the time.

 

 

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, fridge said:

 

How old are you? You do realize that Bledsoe played in a Super Bowl in 96 right? Your argument about the team talent is ridiculous and makes me think you don't remember that era very well. From Wikipedia:

 

Under his tenure as starting quarterback, the Patriots ended an eight-season postseason drought, qualified for the playoffs six times, and made one Super Bowl appearance. In his second season with the team, he was named to the 1995 Pro Bowland was the youngest quarterback to appear in the NFL's all-star game at the time.

 

 

I'm not talking about 96. I'm talking about 2001 bud.

 

I'm well aware of Bledsoes career and I think Luck is better.

 

You are getting a completely off topic from your original point about Luck not being that good a QB. 

 

Like i said, let me know otherwise if you can bring up an argument that Luck hasn't carried the Colts team the last 5 years. Without him they are plain awful. Unless you think 3 and 11 is a respectable record

[The Frankish Reich]

I could definitely see the Colts moving on from Luck. It's the Peyton Manning situation all over again. Just like Peyton in early 2012, nobody knows whether Luck will be the same guy after surgery. And just like in 2012, the Colts will have a very high draft pick. And just 2012, the Colts will have a very highly rated QB staring at them when the draft rolls around.  Right now, the Colts sit at the 3rd overall pick.  They aren't going to "catch" the Browns, but the teams right next to them - Giants and Niners - are definitely looking better right now. I could see them getting the second pick. Let's say everyone knows the Browns are going with Rosen (assuming Rosen doesn't pull an Eli Manning and announce that he will not play there). Wouldn't the Colts with the second pick be a perfect situation for Darnold? So I wouldn't be surprised at all if Luck is on the trading block. Likely bidders?  Umm, just like 2012 all over again, maybe the Broncos? The Cards if they can get out from Palmer? The Vikes if they move on from all 3 of their guys? The Bills? Add to that the uncertainty surrounding Eli Manning too. This will be a very interesting offseason on the QB front.

EDIT: Cleveland has Houston's first pick (Osweiler). Right now the Browns would pick 1st AND 4th in the draft. Houston has Jax, Pitt, and .... the Colts left on their schedule.  The Colts would be nuts not to go full tank mode right now. And yes, there's a reasonable chance that the Browns will have the top 2 picks in the draft. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by The Frankish Reich

[fridge]

18 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

I'm not talking about 96. I'm talking about 2001 bud.

 

I'm well aware of Bledsoes career and I think Luck is better.

 

You are getting a completely off topic from your original point about Luck not being that good a QB. 

 

Like i said, let me know otherwise if you can bring up an argument that Luck hasn't carried the Colts team the last 5 years. Without him they are plain awful. Unless you think 3 and 11 is a respectable record

 

Umm... The point of '96 was that Bledsoe inherited a crappy team when he was drafted three years prior. It's the very thing you're giving Luck credit for doing.

 

They're very similar and their comparison is important because we literally acquired Bledsoe after an injury riddled season around the same time in his career that you're talking about getting Luck.

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, fridge said:

 

Umm... The point of '96 was that Bledsoe inherited a crappy team when he was drafted three years prior. It's the very thing you're giving Luck credit for doing.

 

They're very similar and their comparison is important because we literally acquired Bledsoe after an injury riddled season around the same time in his career that you're talking about getting Luck.

Just one we'll have to agree to disagree sir. All good!

[JohnBonhamRocks]

6 hours ago, nucci said:

a player with a short history of foot problems undergoing surgery?

 

Dawkins makes him expendable, plus he's missed half the games the past 2 years and has a $14.45 M cap hit next year. I'm not saying run him out of town, but I also want a franchise QB. 

[26CornerBlitz]

5 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

 

Dawkins makes him expendable, plus he's missed half the games the past 2 years and has a $14.45 M cap hit next year. I'm not saying run him out of town, but I also want a franchise QB. 

 

Only if they bring back the deep threat you want in Jordan Matthews who runs a great 40 time. 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

34 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Only if they bring back the deep threat you want in Jordan Matthews who runs a great 40 time. 

 

I don't think either Matthew or Watkins should play LT. 

 

Edit: We're really missing those catches of 67, 47, and 31. Intermediate threat more like. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by JohnBonhamRocks

[nucci]

11 hours ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

 

Dawkins makes him expendable, plus he's missed half the games the past 2 years and has a $14.45 M cap hit next year. I'm not saying run him out of town, but I also want a franchise QB. 

I understand that part and have no problem with it but included in a package for Luck....I know the Colts aren't bright but come on

[JohnBonhamRocks]

5 hours ago, nucci said:

I understand that part and have no problem with it but included in a package for Luck....I know the Colts aren't bright but come on

 

Oh, no - my suggestion was for the #3 overall pick. My thought was that they would want an OL to help protect Luck. 

[nucci]

1 minute ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

 

Oh, no - my suggestion was for the #3 overall pick. My thought was that they would want an OL to help protect Luck. 

ahhh, sorry

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[wppete]

I would trade both our First round picks this year for Luck. If that is even enough for hit. 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

 

[Mat68]

On 12/15/2017 at 2:31 PM, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

100% correct. 

Doent mean that is what they will do.  I think its a legitimate and the Colts have a poor roster with limited cap space.  Ne coach new Qb?  crazier things have happend.  Brees with San Diego.  

[BigDingus]

I'd LOVE to trade for Luck.

According to what we've heard, Luck believed he wasn't healthy & ready to go whereas ownership says it's just mental at this point. 

The Saints rolled the dice on Brees when everyone else wanted to play it safe due to his injury. This is a bit different, but I'd still take the chance. Luck has been beaten up behind a horrible offensive line for a couple of seasons now. He knows his body better than management. If he says he wasn't ready, then I'd take his word over people who have a vested financial interest in him getting on the field ASAP.

[Alphadawg7]

On 12/15/2017 at 10:38 AM, PaattMaann said:

 

Well to play devils advocate, why would you give away your current franchise QB to take a gamble and draft one who may or may not be a franchise QB??? 

 

The only "negative" of Luck is his shoulder....if they move on from him I would want nothing to do with him because they obviously have big red flags regarding his phyiscal future 

 

There is a lot more to be concerned about than just Lucks shoulder.  

1. He is injury prone past just his shoulder, and he plays a style that puts him at risk regularly.
2. He has a cap choking contract that is not returning anything close to the value of it, even before he got hurt.  
3. Hasselbeck had a better record when he filled part of a season for Luck.
4. Luck has 105 career turnovers in just 76 career games.  He is very sloppy with the ball, and if you want to see how bad turnovers hurt teams go rewatch the Charger vs Bills game.
5. In 3 playoff seasons, he has NEVER thrown more TD's than INT's and has a career 0.75/1 ratio of TD/INT in the playoffs.  
6. In 3 playoff seasons, his personal play was SUBSTANTIALLY worse than his regular season play, and the Colts have seen that story before with Manning (9 times the #1 seed and didn't win a playoff game) and Irsay even took jabs at Manning about that after they drafted Luck.  
7. The team has a ton of holes to fill, the odds of them fielding a SB contending team, a legit one, anytime soon are pretty low because all Luck has proven he can do is compile stats against weaker opponents and then crap the bed against good teams in the Playoffs.  

So, I am not convinced in the least that the Colts are going to keep Luck.  They are going to have a real hard time putting enough talent around him to win with that massive contract he has and all those holes to fill.  They need a RB, WR, OL, DL, LB, and secondary help...all pretty significantly too.  And yet they have this massive contract who can't even stay on the field, and when he eventually makes it back you have no idea how long he will stay on it.  

 

And this is also why I dont want to trade for him...a LOT to risk on a contract that big.  You won't win in the playoffs turning the ball over like he does, not to mention its a massive question mark if he can even finish a season moving forward.  It is for these reasons I have stated over and over again that Luck has the worst contract in the NFL right now...it grossly exceeds his value right now as an injury prone QB who doesn't protect the ball and comes up small in the playoffs.

[BigDingus]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

There is a lot more to be concerned about than just Lucks shoulder.  

1. He is injury prone past just his shoulder, and he plays a style that puts him at risk regularly.
2. He has a cap choking contract that is not returning anything close to the value of it, even before he got hurt.  
3. Hasselbeck had a better record when he filled part of a season for Luck.
4. Luck has 105 career turnovers in just 76 career games.  He is very sloppy with the ball, and if you want to see how bad turnovers hurt teams go rewatch the Charger vs Bills game.
5. In 3 playoff seasons, he has NEVER thrown more TD's than INT's and has a career 0.75/1 ratio of TD/INT in the playoffs.  
6. In 3 playoff seasons, his personal play was SUBSTANTIALLY worse than his regular season play, and the Colts have seen that story before with Manning (9 times the #1 seed and didn't win a playoff game) and Irsay even took jabs at Manning about that after they drafted Luck.  
7. The team has a ton of holes to fill, the odds of them fielding a SB contending team, a legit one, anytime soon are pretty low because all Luck has proven he can do is compile stats against weaker opponents and then crap the bed against good teams in the Playoffs.  

So, I am not convinced in the least that the Colts are going to keep Luck.  They are going to have a real hard time putting enough talent around him to win with that massive contract he has and all those holes to fill.  They need a RB, WR, OL, DL, LB, and secondary help...all pretty significantly too.  And yet they have this massive contract who can't even stay on the field, and when he eventually makes it back you have no idea how long he will stay on it.  

 

And this is also why I dont want to trade for him...a LOT to risk on a contract that big.  You won't win in the playoffs turning the ball over like he does, not to mention its a massive question mark if he can even finish a season moving forward.  It is for these reasons I have stated over and over again that Luck has the worst contract in the NFL right now...it grossly exceeds his value right now as an injury prone QB who doesn't protect the ball and comes up small in the playoffs.

 

The year before Luck they were a 2-14 team...They were 11-5 the following season after drafting Luck. That team was AWFUL outside of Luck & Reggie Wayne (and TY Hilton as a rookie). They immediately went to the playoffs, losing to the Ravens who won the Super Bowl.

The following year they were 1st place in the AFC South, went 11-5 again, won their first playoff game, only losing to the Patriots in the playoffs.

The next season, they were AGAIN 11-5, won 2 playoff games, and lost in the AFC Championship game to the Patriots...who won the Super Bowl that year.

 

Yes, in 2015 when Luck was injured & started only 7 games, Matt Hasselbeck had a better record than Luck. He suffered from torn cartilage in 2 ribs, a jacked up shoulder, a lacerated kidney, and more. He wasn't playing great before some of that, but he was also getting rocked every game as his O-line was miserable, and the play calling was wretched (their Offensive Coordinator was fired early in the season).

In 2016, he came back & played better than any Bills QB has played since Kelly. He threw for 4,240 yards, 31 TDs to only 13 INT's, posted a career best in YPA with 7.8, posted a career best in completion percentage at 63.5%, and all with an injured shoulder from the prior year & a career high in sacks with 41. Again, he was getting hammered. There were articles from doctors saying the injuries he suffered were usually only seen in people after car crashes.

Of course this year he had surgery and sat out the season. His shoulder recovery isn't where he wanted it to be, and as of November he was still getting treatment for it. So he had one bad season since he's been a starter, and played FAR better than any QB we've had in decades. Hes thrown for over 4,000 yards in 3 out of 4 seasons he played the whole season, has never thrown for less than 23 TD's (and has thrown as many as 40) in those 4 seasons, also makes plays with his feet and averages almost 4 rushing TD's a season.... I mean the guy is a HUGE upgrade over what the Bills have had since Kelly.

[Alphadawg7]

39 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

 

The year before Luck they were a 2-14 team...They were 11-5 the following season after drafting Luck. That team was AWFUL outside of Luck & Reggie Wayne (and TY Hilton as a rookie). They immediately went to the playoffs, losing to the Ravens who won the Super Bowl.

The following year they were 1st place in the AFC South, went 11-5 again, won their first playoff game, only losing to the Patriots in the playoffs.

The next season, they were AGAIN 11-5, won 2 playoff games, and lost in the AFC Championship game to the Patriots...who won the Super Bowl that year.

 

Yes, in 2015 when Luck was injured & started only 7 games, Matt Hasselbeck had a better record than Luck. He suffered from torn cartilage in 2 ribs, a jacked up shoulder, a lacerated kidney, and more. He wasn't playing great before some of that, but he was also getting rocked every game as his O-line was miserable, and the play calling was wretched (their Offensive Coordinator was fired early in the season).

In 2016, he came back & played better than any Bills QB has played since Kelly. He threw for 4,240 yards, 31 TDs to only 13 INT's, posted a career best in YPA with 7.8, posted a career best in completion percentage at 63.5%, and all with an injured shoulder from the prior year & a career high in sacks with 41. Again, he was getting hammered. There were articles from doctors saying the injuries he suffered were usually only seen in people after car crashes.

Of course this year he had surgery and sat out the season. His shoulder recovery isn't where he wanted it to be, and as of November he was still getting treatment for it. So he had one bad season since he's been a starter, and played FAR better than any QB we've had in decades. Hes thrown for over 4,000 yards in 3 out of 4 seasons he played the whole season, has never thrown for less than 23 TD's (and has thrown as many as 40) in those 4 seasons, also makes plays with his feet and averages almost 4 rushing TD's a season.... I mean the guy is a HUGE upgrade over what the Bills have had since Kelly.

 

1. The NFL is littered with the bodies of careers that seemed promising and started hot.  THE ONLY THING anyone can EVER say  positive about Luck all last occurred over 3 years ago.  And Colts have not had a winning record since Lucks 3rd year in the league in 2014.
2. The year before they had Luck, they had a starting QB who didn't deserve to be on an NFL roster, let alone starting.  So its exact polar opposites created a massively exaggerated impact.  Even in 2015 without Luck and a decent backup QB, that backup had a BETTER record than with Luck.
3. More on 2015:  2-5 with Luck and 5-3 with Hasselbeck with the SAME exact roster.  
4. The Colts were in the weakest division in the NFL when Luck came into it.  That division isn't weak anymore.
5. And when he "turned" those Colts around...what did he do next?  Completely fall apart in the playoffs EACH of those THREE years.  Never once posting more TD's than INT's in each of those playoff years.  His play SUBSTANTIALLY dropped off in every measurable way in the playoffs when he was facing better completion. 

So sorry, Luck hasn't done anything in 3 years but produce a losing record, struggle to stay on the field, and continue is HIGH turnover ratio while also the Colts did NOT sniff the playoffs.  Everyone likes to point to the turnaround in record after drafting Luck...who cares, the guy he replaces isn't even in the NFL anymore and had no business starting.  If you put the absolute worst QB into a starting role, that team won't win.  

 

I mean look at SF this year...1 win team all year...they get Jimmy and now are 4-0 with the EXACT same roster where Marquise Goodwin is his top WR.  Not saying Luck had nothing to do with the turnaround, but the difference was so dramatic because of how BAD the previous guy was.  So Luck gets grossly over exaggerated from that point on despite doing squat in three playoff runs (actually pretty bad), struggling to win with the Colts once the division he is in got better, and never got his turnovers under control.  And now, he can't even stay on the field to go with all that and carries a NASTY cap killing contract.  

 

By no means am I saying he is a terrible QB, I am merely stating he is grossly over exaggerated to levels he has not yet reached and has a contract that vastly over pays for what he is doing on the field.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

With a healthy Luck in 2018, this Bills team would almost certainly make the playoffs and possibly a deep run.

 

That's all that matters.

Edited December 27, 2017 by jmc12290