Peterman Arm Strength

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, CuddyDark said:

I don't have a link to the corrected article but if you look in the BIO it says, " Ball velocity 53 mph." http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/30576/ they corrected him to 53 just after the combine.

 

Also love the Pennington comments. If Peterman is anything near a healthy Pennington we have ourselves a steal. Pennington was good before shoulder injury. I would love that. Second window throws. Timing routes. It all makes the offense better.

Yeah, except Pennington wasn't limited by arm strength at all. He actually WAS a good QB that was limited by injury. Arm strength is not an issue for NFL level quarterbacks.

[quinnearlysghost88]

Looking at his highlights, you're right. He doesn't have a great deep ball. But what he lacks in that department he makes up for with his short passes which are on-target, with good speed, and put the runner in a position to gain YAC. That was not happening with Tyrod. His mid-range throws are pretty solid too. 

[Bad Things Man]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That was actually a prime example of late death on his throw.

 

That ball had a late tail on it...........it was thrown well in advance to spot but notice that Benjamin adjusts downward at the last second. 

 

The TV angle was closer and showed the tail finish.

 

 

It looked to me like that ball had pretty good carry for a 25+ yard throw.

[CommonCents]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

The test may be sloppy, but the concept isn't.   We all understand it.   The guy who can throw with great velocity has an advantage on many throws.   

 

The scouts said his arm is a concern.   The combine tests seem to verify it, sloppy or not.   

 

Recall that all my OP said is that I think arm strength may be a problem with him.   I think it's a fair comment, and I think the combine numbers, even if not perfect, suggest that he is coming into the league with less ability to deliver the ball with zip than most young QBs.   

 

I trashed Peterman's arm long before the combine. I'm very concerned it will be a problem throwing outside the numbers once teams have a little tape on him.

 

With that being said, I'm excited to see what he can do well. Tyrod simply wasn't good enough and it has gotten frustrating watching him week after week.

 

We should all notice an improvement on WCO timing. The ball will come out at the end of his drop.

 

I feel a bit like I'm taking home a heavy hottie at closing time. I know I'm not going to like it, I never did like it, but I'm so excited to see how much I don't like it. That's how I feel about NP.  

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

That was actually a prime example of late death on his throw.

 

That ball had a late tail on it...........it was thrown well in advance to spot but notice that Benjamin adjusts downward at the last second. 

 

The TV angle was closer and showed the tail finish.

 

 

I don't know about late death, but I do notice that he has a pretty big motion throwing this ball.   He wanted it there in a hurry, and he drives hard off his back foot and makes a good sized hip and shoulder turn.   The guys with big arms tend to snap off a throw like that.  

[That's No Moon]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know about late death, but I do notice that he has a pretty big motion throwing this ball.   He wanted it there in a hurry, and he drives hard off his back foot and makes a good sized hip and shoulder turn.   The guys with big arms tend to snap off a throw like that.  

Yeah, I'm sorry I was distracted by the part where the receiver caught it to notice that part.

[Bad Things Man]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know about late death, but I do notice that he has a pretty big motion throwing this ball.   He wanted it there in a hurry, and he drives hard off his back foot and makes a good sized hip and shoulder turn.   The guys with big arms tend to snap off a throw like that.  

I can see that shaw.. Makes me think of how Fitzpatrick would wind up.

[starrymessenger]

The deep out is the throw that I need to see him make. If he can do that I have no concerns with arm strength. In addition to the scouting report quoted by Shaw I have seen other comments confirming his deep ball accuracy. Any NFL QB can heave it 40 or more yards, as has been mentioned, so accuracy is really what that throw is all about imo. Maybe you can execute the WC offence without a good deep ball but if its in your arsenal you are a much bigger threat even if its called only infrequently, once or twice a game. If Peterman can do all that at this level then he is the complete package as an NFL passer. I too have noticed the occasional floater but I also tend to think that this is related to mechanics rather than armstrength. Otherwise I think I would have seen it more often. Looking forward to seeing what NP has to offer. 

[BADOLBILZ]

Just now, CuddyDark said:

I don't have a link to the corrected article but if you look in the BIO it says, " Ball velocity 53 mph." http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/30576/ they corrected him to 53 just after the combine.

 

Also love the Pennington comments. If Peterman is anything near a healthy Pennington we have ourselves a steal. Pennington was good before shoulder injury. I would love that. Second window throws. Timing routes. It all makes the offense better.

 

Pennington was very good until a nationally televised night game against the Raiders where he had to attempt a Hail Mary from midfield and the ball came down about 10 yards short of the end zone.

 

That was the moment the light came on for DC's.

 

And that was PRIOR to the shoulder injury.    He came back even weaker.

 

He could have been a GREAT QB except for that painfully feeble arm and having him was the definition of QB purgatory.........good enough to beat bad teams like the Bills.....squeak a team into the playoffs even....... but not good enough to be a championship QB even with championship talent.

 

Peterman has a better arm and is much more athletic but what made Pennington great was accuracy.   He could throw a pass anticipation as well as any QB that ever lived and lay it on the hands where they could run with it.   Routinely.  

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

While that is true you also need to understand that it's only relevant if the QBs in question make decisions at the same pace.  Often a stronger armed QB will hold the ball longer or throw the ball into a smaller place because they grew up being able to do so while the player with the lesser arm had to learn to anticipate the throw because they couldn't just stick it in there.  When you have a player with a strong arm AND a quick mind you have a HoF player.  With just the strong arm you have JaMarcus Russell or Jay Cutler.  With just the decision making you have Ty Detmer.  You need an alchemist's combination of both.  I don't know whether Peterman has that or not. 

 

I'm pretty sure I know that Taylor doesn't.  At least not given the offense he was asked to run this season.  Taylor is an amazing athlete but anticipatory throws have never been his forte and he has said as much himself.  His propensity to protect the ball (good) and his reticence to throw a ball unless he can physically see the player open (bad) makes your passing game limited. 

 

Also, not to quibble about small parts of time, but aerodynamic drag is not a constant.  The football traveling at 60MPH experiences more frictional drag than a ball traveling at 50MPH

This is very good.  Exactly right.   That's why a few posts ago I said that his arm may be a limiting factor.   The fact that he doesn't have a strong arm doesn't mean that he can't play in the NFL, it just means that a weak arm may keep him from being a HoF player.   

 

Cutler's a great example.  Amazing arm,  horribly inconsistent decision maker.   

 

And let's be clear;.  Peterman's arm isnt' going to keep him from being an effective starter.   But it may keep him from being the kind of QB Bills fans want.  

[CuddyDark]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yeah, except Pennington wasn't limited by arm strength at all. He actually WAS a good QB that was limited by injury. Arm strength is not an issue for NFL level quarterbacks.

To some degree. I think he's got plenty enough arm, though it could get dicey if he can't throw outs in the Ralph in the winter months. He surely has a better arm than Fitz so time will tell.

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think you're missing my point.  Phrased as if arm strength is the only variable, it sounds as though it could be a serious deal.  But it's far from the only variable!
Don't you think a different receiver is going to take more than 0.2 s different to get to the same place in his route depending upon the field condition, the cleats he's wearing, whether and how hard he's jammed at the line, exactly how he runs the route etc etc?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these things require more than 0.2 s adjustment on the part of the QB

I think the only way to talk about it is all the other variables are equal.    Two quarterbacks with different arm speeds throwing to the same guys in the same cleats on the same field against the same defensive alignment, the guy with the lower speed pass MUST decide earlier in order to begin his throw earlier in order to get the ball to the same place at the same time.   Five to 10 percent faster. 

[SoCal Deek]

Come on people!  This isn't baseball.

 

The Bills now have HUGE wide receivers. Just throw it up to them and let them go up and get it.  And in that case a little less speed is preferable.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Pennington was very good until a nationally televised night game against the Raiders where he had to attempt a Hail Mary from midfield and the ball came down about 10 yards short of the end zone.

 

That was the moment the light came on for DC's.

 

And that was PRIOR to the shoulder injury.    He came back even weaker.

 

He could have been a GREAT QB except for that painfully feeble arm and having him was the definition of QB purgatory.........good enough to beat bad teams like the Bills.....squeak a team into the playoffs even....... but not good enough to be a championship QB even with championship talent.

 

Peterman has a better arm and is much more athletic but what made Pennington great was accuracy.   He could throw a pass anticipation as well as any QB that ever lived and lay it on the hands where they could run with it.   Routinely.  

Exactly. 

 

There aren't many pro football players I feel sorry, but he was one.   He was amazing.   What was really amazing was once defenses tightened up because he wasn't a threat to go deep, he STILL completed a ton of passes, because he read defenses so well and he was so accurate.  As you say, all this before his shoulder.   After his shoulder, he still had all that amazing skill, but then he was really limited. 

[HappyDays]

28 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

And the film is where the arm strength issue was identified.   Here's what the NFL.com scouting report said.  Notice that all of the negatives are about his ability to deliver the ball with pace.  Notice also all the positives.   I'm anxious to see him play:

 

STRENGTHS

 Smooth, quick set-up in pocket. Grips the ball with big, 10-inch hands. Poised in pocket and takes the hit to deliver a completion. Will set-up, slide and then re-set before making his throw. Can cut it loose from off-balance angles from bootleg or play-action if he sees a winning option break open early. Full field reader. Works all the way through his progressions. Shoots glances at safeties to keep them in check. Strong natural accuracy. Able to throw receivers open and lead them away from danger. Can pinpoint passes to moving targets in his intermediate work. Has enough arm to work field side, intermediate throws. Great vision. Sees passing windows before they develop. Throws with outstanding timing and anticipation. Can put the ball on receivers' hands as soon as they come out of a break if coverage dictates it. Utilizes accuracy and anticipation to challenge windows on all three levels. Won at Clemson hanging five touchdown passes on their talented stop unit. Good escapability and can extend drives with his legs. Excellent deep ball accuracy completing 46.2 percent of his deep throws.

WEAKNESSES

 Inconsistent delivery base causes some throws to sail. Has instances where he short strides and is forced to muscle it to his target. Will float some throws on seams and dig routes. Will have to be mindful to drive the ball on pro level to avoid the ballhawks who are lurking at safety. Has to prove he has enough arm to challenge the same tight windows he did in college. Ball handling a little sluggish in wide receiver screens, hitches and most RPOs (run, pass option). Wants to play hero-ball at times. Needs to learn when to air-mail throw and move to next play rather than trying to get too cute with sideline throws. Can improve overall touch.

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 3-4

SOURCES TELL US

 "I like him. He made me a believer when I watched him against Clemson. I do want to see him throw live and get a feel for how the ball comes out. I never saw him in person and you can't get a feel for that stuff on tape." - NFC Director of Personnel

NFL COMPARISON

 Kirk Cousins

BOTTOM LINE

 Peterman's experience in a pro-style passing attack gives him a head start headed into the league. His physical attributes are just average, but his accuracy, composure and anticipation are what sets him apart from some of the more physically gifted quarterbacks in this year's draft. Peterman's tape is sure to catch the eye of at least a few teams in need of a quarterback and he should come off the board by day two with a chance to become a solid starting quarterback in the future.

 

I had Peterman as a late 2nd/early 3rd round prospect. I was pleasantly surprised when I checked my phone and saw the Bills had nabbed him at the end of the 5th round. Reading this scouting report I don’t understand how a QB with these traits gets taken so late, while a “big arm, big body” QB like Kizer gets taken in the 2nd. Then again NFL scouts are consistently awful at their jobs so I guess it’s not a surprise but you’d think they would learn from past mistakes.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Come on people!  This isn't baseball.

 

The Bills now have HUGE wide receivers. Just throw it up to them and let them go up and get it.  And in that case a little less speed is preferable.

As someone suggested several posts ago, Peterman was probably in the back of Beane's mind when he made the Benjamin deal.   Benjamin and Matthews are great receivers for a guy with Peterman's skill set.  

23 minutes ago, hemma said:

There were quite a few times when the ball should have left Taylor's hand, but didn't.

 

As long as Peterman doesn't have too many of those 0 velocity moments, I think he'll be ok.

Zero velocity.   I like it!

[BigBuff423]

I know I've heard this quite a bit on this board, and admittedly I'm no expert, but when I watch Peterman from his college days, completely discounting his very, very limited NFL throws so far, he had plenty of arm for the game. In one highlight, and I'm sorry I can't recall which game it was, during his senior year he was on the run, full-out and just before the line of scrimmage tossed a 50 yard pass leading into redzone / endzone (don't remember which). His feet weren't set and he didn't square up as though they were and that throw had a fair amount of muscle behind it. 

 

Arm strength might be an issue, but honestly I don't think it will be unless he regresses or injures it somehow. It will be what it is for most Rooks: timing, reading blitzes and coverages, accuracy, and of course taking the hit and getting back up. 

[Shaw66]

17 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

I don't have a link to the corrected article but if you look in the BIO it says, " Ball velocity 53 mph." http://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/player/30576/ they corrected him to 53 just after the combine.

 

Also love the Pennington comments. If Peterman is anything near a healthy Pennington we have ourselves a steal. Pennington was good before shoulder injury. I would love that. Second window throws. Timing routes. It all makes the offense better.

I agree.   I'll take Pennington any day, at least until a Hall of Fame guy comes along.   In this new era, short passing, pick plays, all that, Pennington would be a star.  He was a Brady.    

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I had Peterman as a late 2nd/early 3rd round prospect. I was pleasantly surprised when I checked my phone and saw the Bills had nabbed him at the end of the 5th round. Reading this scouting report I don’t understand how a QB with these traits gets taken so late, while a “big arm, big body” QB like Kizer gets taken in the 2nd. Then again NFL scouts are consistently awful at their jobs so I guess it’s not a surprise but you’d think they would learn from past mistakes.

It is interesting, isn't it, how guys who show all the little skills the NFL craves, the thinking skills, get overlooked because of physical stuff.   In retrospect, Russell Wilson never should have fallen.    

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Pennington was very good until a nationally televised night game against the Raiders where he had to attempt a Hail Mary from midfield and the ball came down about 10 yards short of the end zone.

 

That was the moment the light came on for DC's.

 

 

Do you honestly believe Chad Pennington couldn't throw a football 50 yards? 

[CuddyDark]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree.   I'll take Pennington any day, at least until a Hall of Fame guy comes along.   In this new era, short passing, pick plays, all that, Pennington would be a star.  He was a Brady.    

That. "This new era." It made Kurt Warner a star. Before the rule changes Warner couldn't even make a team as a 3rd stringer. That's why I love the pick and the player. Take a shot on him. If he picks it up, great. If not, he's a long term backup. Draft a more talented QB next year. It's perfect as a fan to see them saying we're going to get a QB. I hope they keep trying if he's not the guy.