Peterman Arm Strength

[CommonCents]

Sport science clocked Brady at 61 MPH at age 39. (Live game action)

[Shaw66]

Interesting comments.  Thanks.  Particularly interesting that Peterman's number was corrected to 53.   No one gave a link, but I'll take it. 

 

To say arm strength doesn't matter is just nonsense.   It absolutely matters.   It matters on deep balls, because the guys with weaker arms have to use their bodies more to get the ball there on time, and more body motion generally affects accuracy negatively.   It also matters on the shorter line drive throws for the same reason.  

 

Pennington would have been an NFL star if he had arm strength.  He was dealy accurate, and he was smart, but defenses knew he wasn't going to hurt them deep, and limited his effectiveness.  

 

Interesting comments from several of you about guys improving their arm strengthj with, I suppose, coaching, training and practice. 

 

Finally, ball velocity IS what it's all about.   The higher the initial velocity, the faster the ball gets there and the longer it will go.   It's basic physics.    If I throw it 10% faster than you, the ball is going to go 10% farther; if we're throwing the same distance, mine will get there 10% faster.  

[YoloinOhio]

4 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I'm not sure if this is as big of a deal as some make it out to be.  I'd think pattern timing/anticipation is a bigger deal, which is Peterman's strength.  He might want to avoid the Brett Favre type risk passes.  What was Peyton Manning's velocity his last two seasons in Denver?  From what I remember, most of his passes were quick, shorter attempts and rarely threw long.  His intelligence overcame his declining physical abilities.

It is true about Manning. In theory, the timing throws should increase YAC by the WRs. If he can hit them in stride or once they have a step on the DB. TT was often late and they would have to stop to make the catch or the DB right there for the tackle if they did make the catch 

[Plano]

9 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Peterman was 53.

 

Mahomes was 60.

 

Kizer was 56

 

Watson 49

 

Greg Gabriel has a good article attached to the numbers. Detailing Brees, Manning and Brady's less than average arm strength while he watched their college tapes and live practices. "Brees arm strength coming out was below average at best"

 

I trashed on Watson and Peterman for their arm strength. I think Watson floated more balls in college...hopefully the later can start out with as much success as the former.

 

 

Peterman was clocked @ 88MPH. He went back to the future with his throws.

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, Da webster guy said:

Meh....  He throws a nice ball.   It was obvious at camp, when you see him throw in person you can tell.   Also the velocity thing is the qb throwing as hard as they can, which isn't game time reality.

 

Drew Brees style thrower.  Lets hope he has the talent to get close to that level......

 

The key to being a good NFL guy is pocket awareness and throw anticipation.   Arm strength never seemed to mean much in terms of wins and losses in the NFL.

Good point about what they tested at the combine.   You may be right.   It depends how they tested it. 

 

But to suggest it isn't important just isn't true.   You know who has good awareness and throw anticipation?   Ryan Fitzpatrick.   His problem - he couldn't deliver the ball fast enough.  He had to wind up to throw it on a line, and the NFL doesn't give you time to wind up.   

 

You're right, he does throw a nice ball.   And that may be enough in the short term, especially because none of his primary receivers are deep threats.   

 

We'll see.     

[CommonCents]

According to Gabriel a lot of the QBs benefit from having an NFL strength and conditions program vs. a college one where some of these guys aren't on a routine.

 

Logan Thomas threw 60 mph tied with Mahomes for the fastest since they began tracking velocity in 2008.

 

Another noteable was Russ Wilson 55 MPH.

[xRUSHx]

30 minutes ago, jr1 said:

have 2 good RB like the Saints and it wouldn't matter

Yeah that bum at QB shouldn't get any respect. With those rbs everyone should stack the box to stop the run..smh

Edited November 16, 2017 by xRUSHx

[Fadingpain]

Peterman is not an impressive combine stat kind of guy; that's probably why he went as low in the draft as he did.

 

I'm not worried about it given our style of offense and what we will ask him to do. 

 

The NFL places way too much emphasis on these types of stats and not enough on "Yeah, but can the guy actually play QB at the NFL level!" which is what they should be focusing on anyway.

 

Peterman is going to look like he belongs on an NFL field as the QB much more than Tyrod ever did, even if Tyrod's arm is a lot stronger.  Doesn't really matter. 

 

 

 

[CommonCents]

Just now, Fadingpain said:

Peterman is not an impressive combine stat kind of guy; that's probably why he went as low in the draft as he did.

 

I'm not worried about it given our style of offense and what we will ask him to do. 

 

The NFL places way too much emphasis on these types of stats and not enough on "Yeah, but can the guy actually play QB at the NFL level!" which is what they should be focusing on anyway.

 

Peterman is going to look like he belongs on an NFL field as the QB much more than Tyrod ever did, even if Tyrod's arm is a lot stronger.  Doesn't really matter. 

 

 

 

 

Tyrod's velocity was 50 at his combine. About 6 percent lower than Peterman's.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

36 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Peterman has a lot going for him.  I think his number 1 attribute may be his intelligence and decision making.   The Wonderlic test presumably measures quick and accurate thinking.   Peterman had a 32 on the Wonderlic, not lights out, but among the best of the QBs coming out of the last draft, and pretty good overall.   Taylor had an apparently had a 15, and the biggest complaint about Taylor is decision making and a slow trigger.   We'll see about that.

 

The biggest complaint about Peterman, and something certainly worth worrying about, is arm strength.   I didn't know it, but at the combine they use a radar gun to determine the release velocity of thrown footballs.   Peterman was 49 mph, among the worst at the combine.   The best is in the high 50s, and just about all the name guys coming out of the draft are at or above 55.   So Peterman is 10-15% below where the best prospects are.   Over the years, very few guys are clocked below 50.    In fact, the only familiar name at the bottom of the velocity test is - Tyrod Taylor, clocked at 50.  

 

Now,  Taylor's interesting to me, because arm strength has not been a problem since he came to the Bills.   Did he improve his delivery and increase his delivery velocity in his four seasons at Baltimore?   I don't know, but if he did, that means that Peterman's major weakness could be addressed.   Brady also had a pretty poor deep ball early in his career, and he's improved that a lot.  Maybe there's hope. 

 

You can see all the numbers here.

 

 

His arm strength isn't great..........that is clear on tape........but I doubt you get a representation of his arm from the combine fastball which doesn't necessarily reflect his regular delivery.

 

His passes have a very nerf like finish at times........"late death" I would call it......which would indicate a low spin rate.

 

Spin rate has become a big deal in MLB because it has become the explanation of the once mysterious "rising fastball" or "late life".

 

If it becomes a problem then next gen stats will uncover it.

 

My bigger concern is the random inaccuracy.   

 

That was a Fitz problem.........and I think Fitz improved some by the time he got to the Jets but he still would make some terrible, dangerously inaccurate throws.

 

I must admit I am very excited to see the kid get his shot...........he may end up having a Kyle Orton effect where he seems to be doing well and putting up yards but not really otherwise creating offensive synergy........but we'll have to see.

 

That offensive synergy created, along with a lack of turnovers, were the things that made Tyrod so effective in his first two years(good scoring, tops in NFL in big plays).   His detractors refuse to admit it but that offense last year was the best since 1991 and that includes 5 more years of Jim Kelly plus the 1998 team and the Drew Bledsoe explosion year to the hot start of 2011........no contest, best offense in 25 years.    

[Charles Romes]

39 minutes ago, Steptide said:

This is just my opinion, but to me arm strength is the absolute dumbest argument to be made against a qb. 

 

For one, even the strongest qbs in the NFL over throw or under throw recievers at times. Does t matter who the qb is, they've done it. 

 

Two, unless a qb is trying to throw it 75 yards, this argument is void. Fitzpatrick was known to have a weak arm, but could still throw it 50 yards if necessary (I seem to remember Stevie Johnson making a crucial drop on a 50 yard bomb) 

 

Lastly, I don't know if I ever seen a qb in the NFL that couldn't throw the ball 20 yards or less. Which is the average pass by a qb. Not every throw made by a qb is a deep shot, home run throw. 

 

Just my opinion, but the whole arm strength argument is so over blown

 

Its not the deep rainbow ball people are concerned about it's the out pattern to the sideline.   You need this throw and you need to take the pick 6 off the table when you throw it.   

[GoBills808]

Just now, Commonsense said:

 

Tyrod's velocity was 50 at his combine. About 6 percent lower than Peterman's.

 

 

So...what now?

[Charles Romes]

Petermans fatal flaw is not his arm strength.   It's panicking under pressure.  

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I'm not sure if this is as big of a deal as some make it out to be.  I'd think pattern timing/anticipation is a bigger deal, which is Peterman's strength.  He might want to avoid the Brett Favre type risk passes.  What was Peyton Manning's velocity his last two seasons in Denver?  From what I remember, most of his passes were quick, shorter attempts and rarely threw long.  His intelligence overcame his declining physical abilities.

It's very simple.   60 miles per hour is 88 feet per second.   50 miles per hour is about 73 feet per second.   So think about what that means.

 

It means that for a guy who can throw 60 mph, when' he's throwing the ball 30 yards, the ball takes one second from his hand to the receiver's hands.   For a guy who throws the ball 50 miles per hour, it takes the ball 1.2 seconds to get there.   That means that the guy who's throwing 50 has to release the ball two tenths of a second earlier than the the guy with the better arm.  That means the guy with the weaker arm has to DECIDE TO THROW two tenths of second earlier.    That means the guy with the weaker arm has two tenths of second less to see whether a linebacker is dropping into coverage, a safety is closing, whatever.   That's a huge difference.   

 

1 minute ago, Charles Romes said:

Petermans fatal flaw is not his arm strength.   It's panicking under pressure.  

Well that remains to be seem.   There's no question in my mind that we're going to see some rookie mistakes.   But you see those from any QB.   There's simply no way to know today whether Peterman will panic or be calm under pressure when he has 25 NFL games under his belt.  

4 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

 

Its not the deep rainbow ball people are concerned about it's the out pattern to the sideline.   You need this throw and you need to take the pick 6 off the table when you throw it.   

Exactly.   And some throws over the middle with quick closing windows.  

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Peterman is not an impressive combine stat kind of guy; that's probably why he went as low in the draft as he did.

 

I'm not worried about it given our style of offense and what we will ask him to do. 

 

The NFL places way too much emphasis on these types of stats and not enough on "Yeah, but can the guy actually play QB at the NFL level!" which is what they should be focusing on anyway.

 

Peterman is going to look like he belongs on an NFL field as the QB much more than Tyrod ever did, even if Tyrod's arm is a lot stronger.  Doesn't really matter. 

 

 

 

 

I highly doubt Peterman went as low as he did because his combine numbers...

 

if you are drafting QBs because combine numbers than you will be out of a job quickly 

 

thats the one position you almost solely Rely on game tape for 

 

the combine is good for seeing how he meshes with players he's never worked with before and not much else besides interviews

[K D]

Peterman throwing 49 is faster than Tyrod throwing 100 because Tyrod waits until the receiver is open to throw thus allowing the defender to close in. Peterman anticipates and the ball is already in the air when the receiver breaks open

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

 

Its not the deep rainbow ball people are concerned about it's the out pattern to the sideline.   You need this throw and you need to take the pick 6 off the table when you throw it.   

 

 

That's where "late death" on your fastball is a killer.

 

The best sideline passers have throws that finish on a rope.

 

I am starting to see why Boyst thought the Kelvin Benjamin acquisition might have been for Peterman.......the shortest distance to a 15 yard completion is straight up the middle and that's where Benjamin is most dangerous. 

[CommonCents]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It's very simple.   60 miles per hour is 88 feet per second.   50 miles per hour is about 73 feet per second.   So think about what that means.

 

It means that for a guy who can throw 60 mph, when' he's throwing the ball 30 yards, the ball takes one second from his hand to the receiver's hands.   For a guy who throws the ball 50 miles per hour, it takes the ball 1.2 seconds to get there.   That means that the guy who's throwing 50 has to release the ball two tenths of a second earlier than the the guy with the better arm.  That means the guy with the weaker arm has to DECIDE TO THROW two tenths of second earlier.    That means the guy with the weaker arm has two tenths of second less to see whether a linebacker is dropping into coverage, a safety is closing, whatever.   That's a huge difference.   

 

 

But taking the velocity numbers from the combine and breaking them down into such detail is useless. 

 

ESPN or NFL NET brought Mahomes on live tv and had him throw against David Carr in a velocity test. He won. I think he did once again hit 60 mph but the ball went sailing over his target by about ten yards. It certainly wasn't his normal delivery.

 

I think the velocity test at the combine is pretty sloppy. 

 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It's very simple.   60 miles per hour is 88 feet per second.   50 miles per hour is about 73 feet per second.   So think about what that means.

 

It means that for a guy who can throw 60 mph, when' he's throwing the ball 30 yards, the ball takes one second from his hand to the receiver's hands.   For a guy who throws the ball 50 miles per hour, it takes the ball 1.2 seconds to get there.   That means that the guy who's throwing 50 has to release the ball two tenths of a second earlier than the the guy with the better arm.  That means the guy with the weaker arm has to DECIDE TO THROW two tenths of second earlier.    That means the guy with the weaker arm has two tenths of second less to see whether a linebacker is dropping into coverage, a safety is closing, whatever.   That's a huge difference.   

 

The guys who throw hardest aren't all the greatest QBs. It's a mixed bag. You've got Stafford and Rodgers and Newton, but there are also the Cutlers, Bortles, and Griffin IIIs with huge arms who can't play QB. The arm strength argument is a red herring.

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Peterman is not an impressive combine stat kind of guy; that's probably why he went as low in the draft as he did.

 

I'm not worried about it given our style of offense and what we will ask him to do. 

 

The NFL places way too much emphasis on these types of stats and not enough on "Yeah, but can the guy actually play QB at the NFL level!" which is what they should be focusing on anyway.

 

Peterman is going to look like he belongs on an NFL field as the QB much more than Tyrod ever did, even if Tyrod's arm is a lot stronger.  Doesn't really matter. 

 

 

 

I think you underestimate arm strength as part of what makes QBs effective, but I generally agree with your conclusion.

 

I left the game after Pererman's first  possession, so I didn't see his touchdown drive.   I've watched the video, and that's what makes me agree with you.   His pocket presence, his scanning of the field and his decisiveness all LOOKED like an NFL QB.  Taylor never looked like that.