Peterman Arm Strength

[Ol Dirty B]

14 hours ago, dubs said:

Interesting that Mitch Trubisky was a 51mph (Left) and 50mph (right) while Peterman was 49/49.  

 

 

 

Care to elaborate? I don't find that interesting at all. What does that mean to any of us?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Peterman has a lot going for him.  I think his number 1 attribute may be his intelligence and decision making.   The Wonderlic test presumably measures quick and accurate thinking.   Peterman had a 32 on the Wonderlic, not lights out, but among the best of the QBs coming out of the last draft, and pretty good overall.   Taylor had an apparently had a 15, and the biggest complaint about Taylor is decision making and a slow trigger.   We'll see about that.

 

The biggest complaint about Peterman, and something certainly worth worrying about, is arm strength.   I didn't know it, but at the combine they use a radar gun to determine the release velocity of thrown footballs.   Peterman was 49 mph, among the worst at the combine.   The best is in the high 50s, and just about all the name guys coming out of the draft are at or above 55.   So Peterman is 10-15% below where the best prospects are.   Over the years, very few guys are clocked below 50.    In fact, the only familiar name at the bottom of the velocity test is - Tyrod Taylor, clocked at 50.  

 

Now,  Taylor's interesting to me, because arm strength has not been a problem since he came to the Bills.   Did he improve his delivery and increase his delivery velocity in his four seasons at Baltimore?   I don't know, but if he did, that means that Peterman's major weakness could be addressed.   Brady also had a pretty poor deep ball early in his career, and he's improved that a lot.  Maybe there's hope. 

 

You can see all the numbers here.

 

I think Dashawn Watson's was 49

[Real McClappy]

2 hours ago, gordong said:

Joe Montana didnt have a strong arm... he did pretty good for himself...

 

 Give me a guy that can throw accurate, and anticipate his WR open after the cut. 

This is exactly what I was about to post.. Give me consistent accuracy (by far the most important trait for success) and a QB that can lead a WR open or hit him in stride when open and I'm a happy camper. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Real McCoy

[bills11]

Not sure this list is really a completely foolproof portrayal of arm strength according to this list Deshaun watson has the weakest arm in the NFL ..which has clearly not been demonstrated in live action and Flacco having a weaker arm than Andy Dalton and Mark Sanchez is just off..

[ROONDOGG55]

I paid a lot of attention to this guy before the draft, and almost never saw the arm strength issues on film. Plus, if you look at all the pro game film on this guy his zip on the ball is very impressive. I don't think we'll have any issues with his arm strength at all. Can't wait to see how he does for a full 60 min. Just want to see consistent drives and passes into tight windows. We have the guys to win most 50/50 type passes, so if Nate puts it near them I expect our guys to come away with it or at least prevent the interception.

 

Go Bills!

 

 

[KW95 - JA17]

17 hours ago, Rise Up Lights said:

Found this video interesting. It was made not long before he was drafted. A throwback to high school days. I didn't realize that NP was a four star recruit coming out. Mike Farrell, a Rivals recruiter who was scouting Peterman mentions 3 or 4 times that he has a cannon arm and a gunslinger mentality. 

 

 

his anticipation beats Tyrods 

[Foxx]

10 minutes ago, KW95 said:

 

his anticipation beats Tyrods 

lol. even a 1 beats a 0.

[Fan in Chicago]

Reading all these posts makes me wonder why NP dropped to the 5th round. What gives ? Can't have just slipped through the cracks. 

[Maynard]

12 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Reading all these posts makes me wonder why NP dropped to the 5th round. What gives ? Can't have just slipped through the cracks. 

Arm strength! J\K. I don’t see an issue with his arm strength at all actually. Good question though. Projected for the 3rd\4th round, not quite sure what scared teams off. 

[ROONDOGG55]

26 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Reading all these posts makes me wonder why NP dropped to the 5th round. What gives ? Can't have just slipped through the cracks. 

No huge arm, no eye popping stats, no great speed, not a big name school, not 6'5" 240 lbs. This draft was also loaded with talent in other places, so the other teams were more worried about the skilled positions. The other QBs taken before him had either better attributes or a better resume.

11 minutes ago, Maynard said:

Arm strength! J\K. I don’t see an issue with his arm strength at all actually. Good question though. Projected for the 3rd\4th round, not quite sure what scared teams off. 

Not sure if anyone was scared either, there was just a lot of other talent in the later rounds that was more appealing to them.

 

I honestly believe that we would have passed Nate if there was a talented skilled player there. We picked him up as an, eh this could be good, kind of pick. I truly believe the Bills were invested in TT like he would be the guy no matter what this season, and they would pick up a vet to back him up. I really think we got the steal of the draft with this guy. Might be as good as they come.

Edited November 17, 2017 by ROONDOGG55

[dubs]

4 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Care to elaborate? I don't find that interesting at all. What does that mean to any of us?

 

 

ummmm....ok....let me try and make the point more obvious.

 

This thread has been debating the importance of arm strength in the NFL and if Peterman's arm strength is adequate.

 

The original post brought some interesting data to the discussion, showing the measurement of velocity of throws of all QBs in recent drafts.

 

Mitch Trubisky was the second overall pick in the draft this past year, Nathan Peterman was drafted in the 5th round, yet they had virtually the same measurements.

 

So, either the Trubisky had a bad day at the combine, that measurement doesn't measure arm strength well, arm strength isn't as important as some seem to suggest, or there is some minimal benchmark a QB needs to surpass to have the necessary arm strength in the NFL.  Got it?

 

 

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

After 8 pages, I'm astounded that people dont understand the concept of arm strength.

 

Arm strength IS ball velocity.  Period.

 

I'm 60 yrs old. My name aint Rico, but  I can throw a football 50 yds.  Its a rainbow.  A classic 50-50 ball.  That ISNT arm strength.

 

Arm strength is throwing a ball 20-25 yd on a rope.  It gets there before the DB can react.  Thats arm strength.

 

Favre, Brady, Stafford have arm strength.  Watch their games, watch the 20 yd outs.

 

Next point is accuracy.  Watch Drew Brees.  He is the most accurate passer I've ever seen.  Look at the youtube.

 

The last issue is recognition, and knowing when to throw.

 

An acquaintance of mine was a D1 college coach.  He pointed out to me that a good QB had to have a good OODA loop.

Explanation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

 

Ive watched TT the last 3 years.  He didnt have a quick OODA loop when he started, and it hasnt improved.

 

Time to check the next guy.

Great stuff.   I'd never seen the OODA loop stuff before.   Of course, none of us can measure OODA times, so we don't really know, but the complaint about Tyrod has always been effectively this.   

 

The point about arm strength, as with other factors, is it's a factor, not the whole story.  The guy with a slow OODA loop can overcome it a bit with arm strength.   The guy with a great OODA loop can get away with having a weaker arm.   Tyrod has good arm strength and probably a slow OODA loop, and the arm strength isn't good enough to overcome the weakness.  Montana didn't have arm strength, but he had a good OODA loop.   

 

Thanks.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Please. 

 

If you actually watched the game the Bills went into CONSERVATIVE mode as soon as they got the lead against Atlanta. It was essentially let's run the ball the rest of the way and sit on this lead and kick field goals. They got lucky it worked out.... Tyrod would've had 0 to do with that loss had they blown the lead at the end. That would've been all McDermott.

Honest question and think hard. 

 

Why always so conservative?

 

Maybe because being SAFE could protect the lead BUT if the lead was lost the BILLS lost

 

see KC 2 seasons ago and Oakland last season.  

 

Sometimes conservative bites you on the ass. Ask ATL about the SB

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, bills11 said:

Not sure this list is really a completely foolproof portrayal of arm strength according to this list Deshaun watson has the weakest arm in the NFL ..which has clearly not been demonstrated in live action and Flacco having a weaker arm than Andy Dalton and Mark Sanchez is just off..

I thin there had to be something wrong with the Watson number.  

 

Good point about Flacco, Sanchez and Dalton.  That makes you wonder about the numbers.  

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, Koufax said:

 

Do you think it was dangerously inaccurate throws where the throw was the correct decision at the time he threw it?  Or bad decisions by a gunslinger without an accurate gun?

 

My top two QB attributes are decision making and accuracy (Brees, Brady, Montana, Manning).  Everything else is tied for seventh.

 

My cautiously optimistic about Peterman on both of these things, and thought his completion percentage on balls that were thrown 15+ yards stat was a potentially interesting and useful one (he was highest in power five conference for that).

 

I think Tyrod's accuracy looked a little better than it actually was because of his "I'm not a gunslinger" mentality where he wouldn't attempt the medium range tight window throws.  Check downs to wide open, scramble, or the only my receiver can catch it bombs.  His legs were undoubtedly a good tool, but most of his value was his running threat, and short passes to open receivers without turning the ball over.  I think that is a tough combo to build a winner around, and while I have enjoyed our five wins this year, none of his nine starts has lead me to believe he is something different from when I thought we should replace him with Watson at #10.

 

If Peterman can show decision making and accuracy, he can be successful, and more successful than Tyrod.  If he can't, we have a clearer sense of what we have, and who should be the interim QB if we draft our future QB without him being ready to play.

 

 

Fitz would just make inaccurate throws even if the decision was right.   He could be pinpoint at times......like the Baltimore game in 2010........ and then inexplicably wild high AND low in others and you don't see that from the Rodgers/Brady/Brees types that so many Bills fans here can only see thru their very FAR-SIGHTED lens.

 

Peterman has shown he can and will make bad throws......if you don't want to look at it much check out that Senior Bowl highlight video posted where he totally skies a ball 10 feet off the mark from short range to Zay Jones in the end zone........that's what he's shown.......... and when you are needing 7 passes to get down the field all the time that increases your chances of a big mistake.

 

Bills offense under Roman/Lynn was about big plays.........which they LEAD THE NFL in two years in a row with Tyrod at QB.   When the personnel was injured at WR he threw more short passes but his impact on the running game mean't they didn't have to throw a lot of passes EVEN THEN.

 

But Tyrod's main value wasn't his legs he brings a number of things to the table of equal importance including the ability to make spectacular big/deep throws and protecting the football.......they worked in unison.  But he needs to be surrounded with complementary talent to give you a top offense like the team had last year.   

 

One thing Peterman isn't likely to bring to the table is a running game.   That's scheme related and the short-to-intermediate passing game clogs the front 7 so you really need to be surgical or you can complete 25-30 passes in a game and still not be scoring points. 

 

And please don't be the person who tries to claim they didn't have an excellent offense last year............it was their best since 1991.

 

I am excited to see Peterman play because he's new and I know that for better or worse McD is going down with his guys regardless.

 

It's like Rex with his scheme.........it was going to work or fail in spectacular fashion there was certainly no in between and McD is going to live and die with his bold personnel decisions.   Won't take 3 years to see if he is capable of executing his vision, we will know by the end of next season so I like that he's started his own clock ticking at least.    

10 hours ago, SaviorPeterman said:

Arm strength is one flaw that can be fixed through time.

 

So if that was truly the main knock on NP I think we are in goo shape assuming his experience in Pitt's pro style offense translates well with what Dennison wants him to run in Buffalo.

 

Inaccuracy issues plus a weak arm are why he was there in round 5.   

 

Not saying either can't be fixed but that's why he was there.

[Foxx]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I thin there had to be something wrong with the Watson number.  

 

Good point about Flacco, Sanchez and Dalton.  That makes you wonder about the numbers.  

Watson's numbers don't fit your narrative so there has to be something wrong with the number? seriously?

 

smh

[starrymessenger]

I think the arm strength discussion is a good one to have. There is no doubt that having a rocket arm is a nice thing to have, but I do think that we are maybe starting to split hairs a bit when we get too deep into it. Sure I'd like for Peterman to have a Stafford laser in his toolbox. Its a definite asset when executing certain throws and situationally in certain cases as the in game action unfolds. In retrospect its presence or absence, as the case may be,  can probably be identified as having been a game changing factor in a specific case, but at the end of the day it is ony one of a great multitude of things that can influence the outcome of a football game insofar as QB performance is concerned. And of course its also something that you can have too much of. You don't necessarily want to even see it when executing the majority of the throws a QB has to make. You want the ball to be in the right place at the right time and for it to be catchable, receiver friendly (often Tyrod's throws are not).  And of course there are  great QBs that have never had M. Stafford's or Brett Favre's gun. 

For sure you don't want a guy with a noodle arm, but that does not at all seem to be Peterman's case. Not at all. 

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Fitz would just make inaccurate throws even if the decision was right.   He could be pinpoint at times......like the Baltimore game in 2010........ and then inexplicably wild high AND low in others and you don't see that from the Rodgers/Brady/Brees types that so many Bills fans here can only see thru their very FAR-SIGHTED lens.

 

Peterman has shown he can and will make bad throws......if you don't want to look at it much check out that Senior Bowl highlight video posted where he totally skies a ball 10 feet off the mark from short range to Zay Jones in the end zone........that's what he's shown.......... and when you are needing 7 passes to get down the field all the time that increases your chances of a big mistake.

 

Bills offense under Roman/Lynn was about big plays.........which they LEAD THE NFL in two years in a row with Tyrod at QB.   When the personnel was injured at WR he threw more short passes but his impact on the running game mean't they didn't have to throw a lot of passes EVEN THEN.

 

But Tyrod's main value wasn't his legs he brings a number of things to the table of equal importance including the ability to make spectacular big/deep throws and protecting the football.......they worked in unison.  But he needs to be surrounded with complementary talent to give you a top offense like the team had last year.   

 

One thing Peterman isn't likely to bring to the table is a running game.   That's scheme related and the short-to-intermediate passing game clogs the front 7 so you really need to be surgical or you can complete 25-30 passes in a game and still not be scoring points. 

 

And please don't be the person who tries to claim they didn't have an excellent offense last year............it was their best since 1991.

 

I am excited to see Peterman play because he's new and I know that for better or worse McD is going down with his guys regardless.

 

It's like Rex with his scheme.........it was going to work or fail in spectacular fashion there was certainly no in between and McD is going to live and die with his bold personnel decisions.   Won't take 3 years to see if he is capable of executing his vision, we will know by the end of next season so I like that he's started his own clock ticking at least.    

I think Fitz and Peterman are similar in the arm strength category.   Again, maybe Peterman will improve.  But I think FItz's inaccuracy was a function of his arm strength in the same way I commented on the video of Peterman throwing to Benjamin.   

 

When you don't have the ability to flick the ball on a line with a quick arm motion, you have to drive with your legs and hip and shoulder turn.   The bigger the motion, the more variables you have in the throw, and that's what impacts accuracy.  

 

Fitz had a good sense of how quickly he had to get the ball there on some of his throws, and he put his body into the throw.   That's when he got inaccurate. 

 

People misunderstand me.  I haven't seen enough of Peterman (none of us has) to know how well he delivers the ball in live NFL action.   I just found some data that is consistent with the scouting reports and I thought it would be interesting to discuss.   I was correct.   

4 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

I think the arm strength discussion is a good one to have. There is no doubt that having a rocket arm is a nice thing to have, but I do think that we are maybe starting to split hairs a bit when we get too deep into it. Sure I'd like for Peterman to have a Stafford laser in his toolbox. Its a definite asset when executing certain throws and situationally in certain cases as the in game action unfolds. In retrospect its presence or absence, as the case may be,  can probably be identified as having been a game changing factor in a specific case, but at the end of the day it is ony one of a great multitude of things that can influence the outcome of a football game insofar as QB performance is concerned. And of course its also something that you can have too much of. You don't necessarily want to even see it when executing the majority of the throws a QB has to make. You want the ball to be in the right place at the right time and for it to be catchable, receiver friendly (often Tyrod's throws are not).  And of course there are  great QBs that have never had M. Stafford's or Brett Favre's gun. 

For sure you don't want a guy with a noodle arm, but that does not at all seem to be Peterman's case. Not at all. 

I don't think anyone knows yet whether he has enough arm.

 

And although everyone keeps saying there are great QBs without great arms, Montana is the only one anyone can name.

 

Still, I agree completely with your main point, which is that arm strength is one of many attributes, and all things considered you'd rather have it than not.  

[Foxx]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

... People misunderstand me.   ...

this is a forum where the written word is all that one has to try and understand what the posters intent is. if you feel you are being misunderstood, might i suggest that you try and elucidate your thoughts more clearly into the written word form then?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Foxx

[starrymessenger]

Shaw, like him or not Romo in his prime was a great QB (not in the GOAT discussion to be sure, but still a great QB imo). The knock on him (one of them) coming out was "only average" arm strength. I agree with your Fitz comment but I strongly suspect NP is much closer to Romo than Fitz as far as arm strength is concerned. So not a throw limiting weak arm. I also agree that we will only know for sure after we have seen a lot more of him. If my guess is right chances are we may have landed a real steal at the all important position.