Draft prospects- defensive front 7. Who do you like?

[The Now Moment]

3 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

The only reason why we are looking at replacing all our DTs though is because of one game.  The 5-2 start had the Bills being stout in the middle.  

No I had this pegged as need as soon as McDermott walked in the building.  Carolina drafted Lotulelei, Short and last year Butler in the first round, all of them are DTs that were for McDermott's system.  The players we have are either aging or don't really fit the scheme well.  And forget run defense for a second, what about the lack of pass rush from the interior of that line this year?  There's a lot of factors that come into play and the majority point to a new set of DTs.  That's what this regime has a history of.

[NewEra]

24 minutes ago, Billzgobowlin said:

No never said anything about the run defense rather the DTs will be fine, not right after the last two games but name a player that shined the last two weeks.  I don't think these two games you can learn about any player right now. 

You’re ok with these 4 DTs going forward into next season?

[Billzgobowlin]

23 minutes ago, NewEra said:

You’re ok with these 4 DTs going forward into next season?

I was when they were 5-2, are these guys different.  You can say we lost Dareus but he missed a few games and was rotational for the rest of them.  The DTs are tired and need help.  The embarrassment was the LBs.  Not one shot the gaps and everyone was tackling behind them.  Could the DTs done more sure but they weren't the big issue

28 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

No I had this pegged as need as soon as McDermott walked in the building.  Carolina drafted Lotulelei, Short and last year Butler in the first round, all of them are DTs that were for McDermott's system.  The players we have are either aging or don't really fit the scheme well.  And forget run defense for a second, what about the lack of pass rush from the interior of that line this year?  There's a lot of factors that come into play and the majority point to a new set of DTs.  That's what this regime has a history of.

This defense wasn't about interior pressure, remember this is Frazier's defense not McDerm's.  Why exactly are the DEs not held accountable for pass rush?

[The Now Moment]

2 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I was when they were 5-2, are these guys different.  You can say we lost Dareus but he missed a few games and was rotational for the rest of them.  The DTs are tired and need help.  The embarrassment was the LBs.  Not one shot the gaps and everyone was tackling behind them.  Could the DTs done more sure but they weren't the big issue

This defense wasn't about interior pressure, remember this is Frazier's defense not McDerm's.  Why exactly are the DEs not held accountable for pass rush?

Everyone should be able to create pressure along the dline not just the DEs...They have potential talent there still, DT doesn't

[LEBills]

I could see two Lotuleleis on the Bills next year...

[34-78-83]

19 hours ago, NewEra said:

We need 2 DTs and new SLB and MLB.  It was embarrassing how easy it was for the jets and saints to just run the same play over and over and over and over and I could go on, and on.  Just pathetic.  8, 10, 12,18 yards gains almost every run.  They won’t allow this to happen.  In Carolina they spend a lot of draft resources on the front 7 and I expect these guys to do the same.  

 

 

who do you guys like?  Bust out your current personal power rankings in the front 7 positions we’ll be looking to address.  I’d like to watch them the rest of the season and bowl games.  Bandit, bloke, gunner and the rest of you forces of nature, let’s discuss some possible replacements in the draft or even free agency.  

 

Ps- I feel bad for Kyle Williams watching him out there.  He was a small part of the problem today but his effort put forth was equal to several of the other front 7 guys combined.  He doesn’t deserve to take a beatdown like that

Not sure on prospects but definitely agree with your defensive needs and your feelings on KW. He looked old out there which is usually not the case.

[Agent 91]

9 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

41-19 is a very telling stat.  That is the Saints time of possession vs the Bills of which I think the Bills had most of the last 10 minutes.  You don't win games by not controlling the ball.  Is it the DTs fault, about as much as it is the LBs, Oline, McCoy, Taylor and whoever else is on the team.  DT was not the glaring weakness on defense, LBs were but nothing looked right that game.  Dareus would not have helped in this game and you can't rely on one position to fix it but get me a MLB before all.

I just xant warch Preston another year in the middle. maybe he can play strong side. Unless he is a FA then... thanks for your service. We DEFINITELY need a play caller on both sides of the ball.

1 hour ago, LEBills said:

I could see two Lotuleleis on the Bills next year...

That would be amazing. Star was a big name coming out of college. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Agent 91
mis-spell

[NewEra]

11 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I was when they were 5-2, are these guys different.  You can say we lost Dareus but he missed a few games and was rotational for the rest of them.  The DTs are tired and need help.  The embarrassment was the LBs.  Not one shot the gaps and everyone was tackling behind them.  Could the DTs done more sure but they weren't the big issue

This defense wasn't about interior pressure, remember this is Frazier's defense not McDerm's.  Why exactly are the DEs not held accountable for pass rush?

Yes, they’re different.  They’re being dominated at the line of scrimmage.  Teams have figured out how to attack them and we are now getting destroyed.  Maybe it’s the scheme?  Maybe, but it’s our scheme and if the guys we have can’t get the job done in the scheme we’re going to run, they need to be replaced.  I’m not saying all of them, but we need At least 2 different bodies in there. 

 

I agree, they aren’t getting any support from the LBs..... 2 of which need to be replaced as well.

[Billzgobowlin]

9 hours ago, Buffalo30 said:

Everyone should be able to create pressure along the dline not just the DEs...They have potential talent there still, DT doesn't

I am not quite sure the difference between DT and DE as far as talent....  There are vets, undrafteds and first rounders on both positions.  Neither has been particularly strong but the difference is the DTs are not counted on for putting pressure on the QB in this defense.

19 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Yes, they’re different.  They’re being dominated at the line of scrimmage.  Teams have figured out how to attack them and we are now getting destroyed.  Maybe it’s the scheme?  Maybe, but it’s our scheme and if the guys we have can’t get the job done in the scheme we’re going to run, they need to be replaced.  I’m not saying all of them, but we need At least 2 different bodies in there. 

 

I agree, they aren’t getting any support from the LBs..... 2 of which need to be replaced as well.

I am curious if McDerm will get tired of watching Frazier's scheme, he has to take some of the blame.  I can understand a couple of players underperforming but as much as they were all gelling as a defense at the beginning of the season they have been not working together at all the past two games, wonder if it has to do with the voice in the defensive room or just they are not good.

[The Now Moment]

3 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I am not quite sure the difference between DT and DE as far as talent....  There are vets, undrafteds and first rounders on both positions.  Neither has been particularly strong but the difference is the DTs are not counted on for putting pressure on the QB in this defense.

Yet in McDermott's Carolina defense, Kawonn Short was drafted and had double digit sacks...I completely disagree with the notion that DTs don't need to create pressure in this scheme or in most schemes for that matter.  The DEs have been by themselves in trying to get to the QB if you watch closely.  Hughes has had pressures, just hasn't gotten there.  The QBs that we've played against have been way too comfortable in the pocket.  The DTs need to provide interior rush to push the QB out of the pocket into the arms of the DEs but they haven't provided even the slightest bit of push all season really.  We have very few sacks as a team.  We also do not have any first rounders at the DT position right now.  Washington was a third and isn't playing well.  Both Shaq and Hughes were former 1st rounders and Shaq is still developing.  One fat run stuffer and a DT that can get penetration is what McDerm had in Carolina in Lotulelei and Short.  They even drafted another first DT in Vernon Butler...3 first round DTs.  I fully expect that trend to continue now that he is here.  

[Billzgobowlin]

50 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Yet in McDermott's Carolina defense, Kawonn Short was drafted and had double digit sacks...I completely disagree with the notion that DTs don't need to create pressure in this scheme or in most schemes for that matter.  The DEs have been by themselves in trying to get to the QB if you watch closely.  Hughes has had pressures, just hasn't gotten there.  The QBs that we've played against have been way too comfortable in the pocket.  The DTs need to provide interior rush to push the QB out of the pocket into the arms of the DEs but they haven't provided even the slightest bit of push all season really.  We have very few sacks as a team.  We also do not have any first rounders at the DT position right now.  Washington was a third and isn't playing well.  Both Shaq and Hughes were former 1st rounders and Shaq is still developing.  One fat run stuffer and a DT that can get penetration is what McDerm had in Carolina in Lotulelei and Short.  They even drafted another first DT in Vernon Butler...3 first round DTs.  I fully expect that trend to continue now that he is here.  

Is this McDerm's defense or Fraziers, it makes a big defense.  

[Alphadawg7]

My pick:  Marcell Dareus...oh wait, we jettisoned him for a 6th round pick and simultaneously plummeted to bottom of NFL in run defense while Jags simultaneously jumped over that span from bottom of the NFL to top 5.  

 

Sure glad we got rid our locked up, young DT so we can go out and waste one of our high value draft picks to TRY and replace him since we have just about no chance of doing so with the measly 6th round pick we got.  

Edited November 14, 2017 by Alphadawg7

[Mrbojanglezs]

Whats the point Beaner will just trade him away for pennies in 3 years

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I am not quite sure the difference between DT and DE as far as talent....  There are vets, undrafteds and first rounders on both positions.  Neither has been particularly strong but the difference is the DTs are not counted on for putting pressure on the QB in this defense.

I am curious if McDerm will get tired of watching Frazier's scheme, he has to take some of the blame.  I can understand a couple of players underperforming but as much as they were all gelling as a defense at the beginning of the season they have been not working together at all the past two games, wonder if it has to do with the voice in the defensive room or just they are not good.

And the talent isn’t there at the DT position. One third rd pick with a questionable motor and 2 cast offs to go with the aging Kyle.  Teams are plowing through us because our guys aren’t good enough to stop them.  Maybe that’s just my crazy opinion, but it seems obvious to me.  Some of those guys played better prior but I wouldn’t count on them being consistent in any fashion.  We need better players up front.

[SoCal Deek]

If this team spends two seconds worrying about anything other than getting a Quarterback then you know all hope is definitely lost.

[NewEraBills]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

My pick:  Marcell Dareus...oh wait, we jettisoned him for a 6th round pick and simultaneously plummeted to bottom of NFL in run defense while Jags simultaneously jumped over that span from bottom of the NFL to top 5.  

 

Sure glad we got rid our locked up, young DT so we can go out and waste one of our high value draft picks to TRY and replace him since we have just about no chance of doing so with the measly 6th round pick we got.  

Yeah but if you look at what they want out of a DT Dareus is not it not just off the field but on it.  Dareus like the others has shown absolutely nothing to affect the QB on the other team and was/is getting paid top money.  If you are getting paid that kind of money you better do more than excel at run defense.  You better be affecting the QB to.

[Solomon Grundy]

20 hours ago, LEBills said:

I could see two Lotuleleis on the Bills next year...

And raise me a Hercules Ma'afata

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, NewEraBills said:

Yeah but if you look at what they want out of a DT Dareus is not it not just off the field but on it.  Dareus like the others has shown absolutely nothing to affect the QB on the other team and was/is getting paid top money.  If you are getting paid that kind of money you better do more than excel at run defense.  You better be affecting the QB to.

 

While I understand where you are coming from, this is a guy who had 28.5 sacks in his first 4 years before Rex ruined the defense.  A DT getting sacks is highly dependent on how he is being used.  And with the a focus on shoring up the porous run defense we saw under Rex, its not surprising if McD was trying to use him to plug holes more.  

 

So we know Dareus is fully capable of pressuring the QB, if thats how the staff intends to use him.  He also was dealing with some injury stuff while here under the new staff too.  Which is why I would have rather us kept him to see if McD and the staff can find the best way to use him effectively and get on the same page.

 

Had we gotten back a 2nd, I would be much more OK with this.  My disdain is rooted in the fact we essentially gave him away to save a little one extra year on the cap.  People focus on the cap savings and champion it while completely over looking the COST to trade Dareus.  The cost to trade him is going to likely be a first round pick, definitely at least a 2nd rounder, that we will HAVE to invest in now trying to fill the gap because the guys on the roster suck and wouldn't be able to even stop OJ if he came out of retirement from running for a 150 yards and 2 TDs on us.  

 

And its not like whatever pick we invest in replacing is a lock to be good as most draft picks bust of fall short of expectations.  So the cost could be even more expensive.  And honestly, we may use 2 picks on the DL as Kyle needs replacing as well.

[NewEraBills]

13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

While I understand where you are coming from, this is a guy who had 28.5 sacks in his first 4 years before Rex ruined the defense.  A DT getting sacks is highly dependent on how he is being used.  And with the a focus on shoring up the porous run defense we saw under Rex, its not surprising if McD was trying to use him to plug holes more.  

 

So we know Dareus is fully capable of pressuring the QB, if thats how the staff intends to use him.  He also was dealing with some injury stuff while here under the new staff too.  Which is why I would have rather us kept him to see if McD and the staff can find the best way to use him effectively and get on the same page.

 

Had we gotten back a 2nd, I would be much more OK with this.  My disdain is rooted in the fact we essentially gave him away to save a little one extra year on the cap.  People focus on the cap savings and champion it while completely over looking the COST to trade Dareus.  The cost to trade him is going to likely be a first round pick, definitely at least a 2nd rounder, that we will HAVE to invest in now trying to fill the gap because the guys on the roster suck and wouldn't be able to even stop OJ if he came out of retirement from running for a 150 yards and 2 TDs on us.  

 

And its not like whatever pick we invest in replacing is a lock to be good as most draft picks bust of fall short of expectations.  So the cost could be even more expensive.  And honestly, we may use 2 picks on the DL as Kyle needs replacing as well.

 

I'm full aware of Marcel's contribution to dropping QB's.  But that was before he got PAID.  Once he got paid he did the Haynesworth.  I do agree though that the 6th rd for him stings though.  I would have at the minimum hoped for another 3rd which gives us a chance to land another blue chip guy on the team.  I do think we need either two picks on the interior defensive line or bring someone significant in from FA.  The defensive line will need an infusion of talent next season but I also think we need a QB of the defense in the middle.  Preston just doesn't cut it for me.  I think the defense being #1 when it was was an amazing achievement because the talent level was nowhere close to the ranking.

Edited November 15, 2017 by NewEraBills