Blame Dennison if You Want, But it's Not the System

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, Jrb1979 said:

It is somewhat related to coaching but coaching doesn't change the play I posted. TT has almost always looked for the safest play and has been afraid to throw it unless the guy is wide open.

 

Fairly true - obvious exceptions.  They played a strong zone game and we didn't call a game designed to beat it.  We didn't flood sides of the field, we didn't level out the coverage, and the interior line muddied the pocket all day.  He had some time to throw,  he just couldn't step up and create time.  We had no run game so play action was moot, and it felt like every 3 step drop got batted at the line.

 

The gameplan for this game was very poor - that cannot be argued.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agreed, we do.  But I honestly think that is where our talent is at the moment Alpha sadly.  Our oline includes one guy I don't think should be in the NFL, two I think are borderline NFL players (though Dawkins is still a rookie and I am far from writing him off just there is a lot of inconsistency so far) and Richie and Eric are looking their age. You know my view on our Quarterback.  We have upgraded at receiver but our offense still lacks the overall talent to go and beat the best for me.  Whoever is calling the game.  How many really good teams did the Roman and Lynn offense really beat?  It was good at winning games we should win and never looked quite as horrible as we did in New York, but I don't think the talent on that side is what we need.  

 

Yeah, talent...well lack of talent...cant be overlooked.  OL has reverted to what it looked like in the preseason, and the D has reverted to 2015/2016 form the last few weeks.  

 

There are substantial holes to fill now, and thankfully the trade for KB and the recent improving play of Zay can keep WR off our needs list in the draft.  A FA signing of someone who can be a deep threat to help open the field should round the unit out.  So we can turn our focus fully on the other big gaping holes we clearly need to fill.  

[ctk232]

6 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I have to disagree.  The system is old-school.  We need a more forward-thinking system with more RPO's.  That would suit Taylor's skill set much better.

Forget Taylor's skill set, we just need a modern, forward-thinking offense for once. Including personnel to execute it.

[Elite Poster]

7 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

The only system that fits our starting QB's skill set is Paul Johnson's Georgia Tech offense.

 

Greg Roman 2015

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But that is not what he has built is what I am saying. As you would get if you read my posts. He has tried to get Tyrod out of the pocket as much as he can because he knows Tyrod can't run that offense. 

 

He is trying to run an offense that gets Tyrod out or on the move but the line is struggling and he isn't getting time to move, see the field and throw. What I am suggesting is the normal response to that is the quick pass, timing offense. But we can't run that because of Tyrod's limitations. 

 

With this line and this QB I don't know what you want him to call? A call sheet with a load of plays that don't require your line to sustain blocks or your Quarterback to get the ball out inside 2.5 seconds.... yea we all have one of those. 10 a penny those plays. 

 

Running on second and long with Mike Tolbert over and over, that's totally ok for you?

[Captain Murica]

59 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Forget Taylor's skill set, we just need a modern, forward-thinking offense for once. Including personnel to execute it.

 

Yup, I want a modern day offense. This offense was acceptable 20 years ago. 

 

Look at the turn around the Rams have had with the new offensive scheme and the same QB that was labeled a bust after last season. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

I believe it is partly the system. I will admit Tyrod was awful yesterday but you can't tell me that it makes sense for Dennison to be calling 2nd and 15 run plays especially to Mike Tolbert. It also seems that we run on 1st and 2nd down all the time. The offense is extremely predictable. In some ways it is the system

 

Exactly.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Elite Poster said:

 

Running on second and long with Mike Tolbert over and over, that's totally ok for you?

 

Again, perception. He hasn't done it over and over. 

[Mat68]

The scheme has worked in the NFL for 20 years.  The guy who has seen it from the begining and only now gets to call it is a concern.  

[Elite Poster]

37 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Again, perception. He hasn't done it over and over. 

 

Happened 3 times this game. Not exactly second down, but Tolbesity got targeted 3 times in 2/3 down and long. That's 3 drive killing plays that we willingly put out there.

32 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

The scheme has worked in the NFL for 20 years.  The guy who has seen it from the begining and only now gets to call it is a concern.  

 

A lot of things work in the NFL, it's about building a scheme for your players. I want to see Brady running Russell Wilson's scheme. Not gonna happen. 

 

Smart teams build plays around their guys, dumb teams like Rex and McDermott lead teams think you can scheme your way regardless of your personnel. Frustrating.

 

I said it before in this thread I'll say it again, teams scheme to keep Tyrod in the pocket. We did that for them against the Saints. 

 

It made no sense. We had one designed Tyrod run. How many designed roll outs did we run? I can't remember one.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Elite Poster

[Mat68]

3 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

Happened 3 times this game. Not exactly second down, but Tolbesity got targeted 3 times in 2/3 down and long. That's 3 drive killing plays that we willingly put out there.

 

A lot of things work in the NFL, it's about building a scheme for your players. I want to see Brady running Russell Wilson's scheme. Not gonna happen. 

 

Smart teams build plays around their guys, dumb teams like Rex and McDermott lead teams think you can scheme your way regardless of your personnel. Frustrating.

Thats why i dont think it is a scheme issue either side.  The defense doesnt have terrible personal like carrington at OLB lol.  The offense comes down to play calling.  There are plays to take advantage of Taylors strengths just dont see a connect.

[ctk232]

28 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Thats why i dont think it is a scheme issue either side.  The defense doesnt have terrible personal like carrington at OLB lol.  The offense comes down to play calling.  There are plays to take advantage of Taylors strengths just dont see a connect.

 

Honestly not trying to make the dead horse deader here, but it seemed like it was mostly check down plays, either to the flats or 5-7 yards out on 3rd and longs. I know we've picked apart yesterday's game on this board today and we've all pointed out the one or two plays TT missed an open receiver. There's always going to be missed open receivers but the frequency is what matters. So here's my long-winded question:

 

It might have been just me, but the amount of check downs seemed much more noticeable yesterday. You can attribute it to lack of pocket protection, TT not being able to see over the line, or just general TT hesitant play period - but either he's frequently missing open receivers, or our receivers just aren't open. If it's the latter, how much of "Receivers not being open" is on the WR corps, and how much is on the OC and the scheme? Are the routes/playbook not that complicated/too similar for opposing defenses to adapt to in a week's time?

[Theshallowcross]

12 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

I just want a Modern NFL offense. Is that too much to ask

McDermott should've hired Ken Dorsey the Carolina QB coach. Hopefully after the season he does exactly that. Dennison is horrible and his scheme is antiquated. 

[Mat68]

1 minute ago, ctk232 said:

 

Honestly not trying to make the dead horse deader here, but it seemed like it was mostly check down plays, either to the flats or 5-7 yards out on 3rd and longs. I know we've picked apart yesterday's game on this board today and we've all pointed out the one or two plays TT missed an open receiver. There's always going to be missed open receivers but the frequency is what matters. So here's my long-winded question:

 

It might have been just me, but the amount of check downs seemed much more noticeable yesterday. You can attribute it to lack of pocket protection, TT not being able to see over the line, or just general TT hesitant play period - but either he's frequently missing open receivers, or our receivers just aren't open. If it's the latter, how much of "Receivers not being open" is on the WR corps, and how much is on the OC and the scheme? Are the routes/playbook not that complicated/too similar for opposing defenses to adapt to in a week's time?

Imo its the quick passimg game that Taylor doesnt do well.  Take away the run play zone on the back end.  For most teams its simple pass and catch.  The windows are their.  Those are the anticipation throws that Taylor doesnt throw.  The "open" guy will be the check down or shallow route with 5 guys ready to rally and make the tackle.  Peterman did a very good job in the short sample vs the same defense hitting the windows and having good ball placement on tight throws.  The differnce is 123 pass for peterman 123..pass or escape a closed pocket and sack.

[GunnerBill]

58 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

Happened 3 times this game. Not exactly second down, but Tolbesity got targeted 3 times in 2/3 down and long. That's 3 drive killing plays that we willingly put out there.

 

None of the plays where we threw checkdowns to Tolbert were the play calls. Want to blame someone for those plays blame Tyrod. There were routes down the field on every one. 

 

And that is different to what you originally said which was that we kept running him on 2nd and long. We actually only ran Tolbert twice all day. Once on the silly pitch in the 1st drive where they are running the script and it was clearly designed for Shady. Bad call with Tolbert in no doubt. The other was on a 3rd and 1 in the last drive of the 1st half... he was stuffed for no gain our "short yardage specialist." Again - put that on McD and Beane. They want him out there in those scenarios. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by GunnerBill

[Rocbillsfan1]

It's both of their problems. How can you not see that if your Dennison Tyrod is not going to be able to run your type of offense. I think his offense could work and would actually run smoother with Peterman because he's better suited for this type of offense. What I don't get is if you are going to play Tyrod Taylor for the year you have to scheme the offense around what he can do. You have to look at the tape of the last two years and use the bulk of that. Sure sprinkle in some new stuff but you have to let this guy use his legs whether that means play action, bootlegs, moving the pocket, having the zone read option back in place where he can run or pass. You have to revert this offense into a more college type of style.

 

You cannot have it both ways of just forcing this guy into your style. Everyone can see that Tyrod is never going to be able to be a normal qb that can drop back go through his reads and get the ball out fast and on target. He simply doesn't have it in him and is why three years into starting and seven years in the league he's never thrown for over 300 yards in a winning game and I believe has had two wide receivers with over 100 yards in a single game. There is a reason why this guy is running every great WR out of this city.

[Mr. WEO]

Duke: The lights are growing dim Otto. I know a life of crime has led me to this sorry fate, and yet, I blame society. Society made me what I am. 

Otto: That's bulls..t. You're a white suburban punk just like me. 

Duke: Yeah, but it still hurts.

[Paulus]

CERTAIN QBS PLAY BETTER UNDER CERTAIN SHCEMES...

[OhDozeBills]

Yeah Rico's system can be successful, but it doesn't fit our personnel. He's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. 2 years this team was #1 in league rushing, and Rico changes the blocking scheme?  It's also a terrible fit for TT.   Bottom line, Rico needs to make some changes to the scheme. Too late in the season for major scheme overhaul, but he has to take another look at last years offense and what made them successful.  

[JM57]

15 hours ago, horned dogs said:

I was just checking numbers on a hunch and came across something interesting. Getting the ball into the playmakers hands at WR and RB are the bread and butter of sustainability in the NFL. All the rest QB scrambles, Reverses, TE Screens, dump offs etc. are not what an offense can exist on and be successful over the long haul with. SO.......

 

Guess how many yards receiving per game the Bills Wideouts are averaging? If you said 92.0 you'd be correct. Guess what the average of the  top 5  AFC teams is (PIT NE KC JAX TEN) thats's correct 155.1. Let's also check and see how many yards rushing the RBs are getting? the Bills are getting 85.8. Guess what the other 5 teams are averaging...108.1!!!!

 

I didn't check every team because of time. But, a team with this breakdown can't succeed long-term. This unit has almost as many problems as the defense.

You clearly haven't watched the Chiefs lighting up the league for the last two years, have you? Screens, jet sweeps, all sorts of crazy stuff and it WORKS because their offensive coaches looked at what they had talent wise and created a playbook that suited them.

 

Meanwhile offensive Dick Jauron is running the same 10 plays over and over and over again, the same ones Kubiak and Shanahan before him have run for 30 years and wonders why it's getting stopped. 

[Rochesterfan]

10 hours ago, Rocbillsfan1 said:

It's both of their problems. How can you not see that if your Dennison Tyrod is not going to be able to run your type of offense. I think his offense could work and would actually run smoother with Peterman because he's better suited for this type of offense. What I don't get is if you are going to play Tyrod Taylor for the year you have to scheme the offense around what he can do. You have to look at the tape of the last two years and use the bulk of that. Sure sprinkle in some new stuff but you have to let this guy use his legs whether that means play action, bootlegs, moving the pocket, having the zone read option back in place where he can run or pass. You have to revert this offense into a more college type of style.

 

You cannot have it both ways of just forcing this guy into your style. Everyone can see that Tyrod is never going to be able to be a normal qb that can drop back go through his reads and get the ball out fast and on target. He simply doesn't have it in him and is why three years into starting and seven years in the league he's never thrown for over 300 yards in a winning game and I believe has had two wide receivers with over 100 yards in a single game. There is a reason why this guy is running every great WR out of this city.

 

 

I think you hit hit the nail on the head, but you are just looking at it a bit off kilter.  They know what kind of offense they want to run and they know that TT is a 1 year stop gap - so you implement your offense and see who can make plays, but you understand that the plays are not going to be as smooth.  

 

You can still evaluate route runners and how they get in and out of breaks based upon film.  This has always been a transition year.  

 

I think that that they could have done more to implement plays that TT does well, but TT is a unique athlete and therefore anything you create offensively falls apart if you have to switch him out.  It would also require a totally different set of WRs -speed guys for the outside and a different blocking scheme.  That would then have set the team back next year because they do not have the other parts to run the offense they want - when they get a better more capable QB.

 

TT is a good transition guy and because he makes so very few dangerous throws - he keeps his turnovers low and that is something a defensive HC loves.  I think they knew there would be struggles, but just like Rex - they knew if they could get the defense and special teams working - TT would not blow the game.  He will not win a game for you, but he will not make the Cutleresque interception at the end of the half that costs your team the game.

7 hours ago, OhDozeBills said:

Yeah Rico's system can be successful, but it doesn't fit our personnel. He's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. 2 years this team was #1 in league rushing, and Rico changes the blocking scheme?  It's also a terrible fit for TT.   Bottom line, Rico needs to make some changes to the scheme. Too late in the season for major scheme overhaul, but he has to take another look at last years offense and what made them successful.  

 

 

Only if if that is what they want to do going forward.  If as I suspect they are looking long term and TT is not part of that - then they are building for the future QB with a stop gap.  

 

They purposefully changed the entire WR Corp out to fit the WCO and are adjusting the blocking to fit what they want to do when they get their QB.

 

Everything this year was trying to win with the players they have while building for the future.  That means you are going to have some bad scheme fits, but you are seeing who fits going forward.

 

The scheme may or may not work long term, but they were not trying to build a system to fit TT - they are looking long term and QB can make a huge change to how a scheme runs - just look at the end of the Saints game and how different the offense looked with Peterman.