Blame Dennison if You Want, But it's Not the System

[blacklabel]

It's a combination of the scheme, the playcalling and lack of execution. Earlier in the season they were trying to fully work with Dennison's scheme and the run game went nowhere. After a few games, they sat down with the offense and went over things that have been effective for them over the past few seasons. They implemented some of those things and that was when the run game picked back up and they were at least efficient. Now they just look completely lost. I don't know if Dennison has started to install/use more of his scheme and has gotten away from the mix of plays/schemes they were using from the last couple seasons or what but it's been rough to watch over these last two games.

 

Not having the OL at 100% has hurt. Glenn has been in and out. Dawkins shows flashes but as a rookie he's going to be inconsistent. Richie isn't anywhere near 100%, I believe his ankle is limiting him and thus limiting his ability to pull and be a lead blocker. Wood seems to have stretches where he's consistent and does his job and then has lapses where he's getting walked back into the pocket or defenders are passing right by him. Miller was much improved in 2016 but this year, he's clearly not a fit for what they wanna do and Ducasse, while he is a better fit in terms of size and playing style, he's just not that good. Mills is Mills... he's actually had some decent games this year but as always he struggles with speed and defenders who have an extensive bag of pass rushing moves. 

 

And Taylor... well, he can do some things no other QBs (aside from Cam and Wilson) can do. He's capable of some "wow" plays a few times a game but aside from that, he simply cannot see over the line and has trouble finding the windows and lanes his height forces him to throw through. He is also not a consistent anticipatory thrower. He needs to see his guy open before he fires it. And when looking at the film, there are at least a handful of times per game where he's missed open receivers. They may not be "wide" open but they are open enough where the QB needs to get rid of the ball and give his receivers a chance to make a play. On top of that, this team is definitely missing the deep threat that Watkins provided. I'm not saying they're missing Watkins specifically, but they don't have any receivers that can get behind the defense. So no opponent has to bother dropping a safety deep. They can keep everything close to the line and bottle up the run, force Taylor to stay inside the pocket and dictate the game because they don't have to fear getting beat over the top. 

 

And for the love of Pete, I'm sure Mike Tolbert is a great dude, I know he's on this team because he's familiar with McDermott and because his attitude and team-first mentality is what they're looking for in their players. But the guy is just not a good #2 option behind McCoy. He isn't dynamic in any way, he's limited to runs only between the tackles and he should really never be used on swing screens because he just doesn't have the speed to get to the corner. We knew they wanted to rely on McCoy as much as possible but the guy isn't invincible and honestly they just need a better option to spell him than Tolbert.

 

So that's just the players. When it comes to Dennison, yeah I think it's fair to wonder how effective he can be as a playcaller when he's spent most of his career as an OC that didn't always call the plays. A 4th and 1 shovel pass to the fullback? Targeting Benjamin only three times, all on the first drive and then not even bothering to call his number again until garbage time? That's inexcusable. I know the dude hasn't been here long but this is football and he's a professional. At this point, they need to let him rely on his size and athleticism to make plays as opposed to waiting for him and Taylor to develop chemistry and timing. 

 

I said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here. There isn't enough creativity on either side of the ball right now. It's not a bad idea to run straightforward schemes that allow your players to line up and play fast. And I'm not saying they need to complicate things, but they need to try throwing caution to the wind a little bit and finding more creative ways to get their guys in position to make plays, simple as that. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But that is not what he has built is what I am saying. As you would get if you read my posts. He has tried to get Tyrod out of the pocket as much as he can because he knows Tyrod can't run that offense. 

 

He is trying to run an offense that gets Tyrod out or on the move but the line is struggling and he isn't getting time to move, see the field and throw. What I am suggesting is the normal response to that is the quick pass, timing offense. But we can't run that because of Tyrod's limitations. 

 

With this line and this QB I don't know what you want him to call? A call sheet with a load of plays that don't require your line to sustain blocks or your Quarterback to get the ball out inside 2.5 seconds.... yea we all have one of those. 10 a penny those plays. 

 

If you have tom brady, you don't run read-option's and bootlegs.  You're more comfortable with quick passes because he can diagnose the defense pre and post snap better than anyone.  

 

If you have TT, maybe you don't run anticipation timing routes.  Why play to your player's worst attributes?  Why not use read-option to get the defense moving horizontally, and adding some guess work.  Why not pass from shotgun more?  He has a better depth to avoid those batted balls, and he seems better at escaping pressure when he's in shotgun.  You can also do Run-pass options out of shotgun.  

Edited November 13, 2017 by dneveu

[GunnerBill]

The line lost its battle again yesterday.  Not as brutally as against the Jets... Tyrod had sufficient plays where he had time to make throws yesterday but the line wasn't great.  How many times did we run it down by 21 points?  I did the maths last week.... we ran it 4 times after the point where the game was more than a 7 point game.  I am willing to guess it was about the same yesterday.  I have no problem with that as a %.  You are trying to stop the pass rush just pinning back its ears and coming every single down.  

1 minute ago, blacklabel said:

 

 

So that's just the players. When it comes to Dennison, yeah I think it's fair to wonder how effective he can be as a playcaller when he's spent most of his career as an OC that didn't always call the plays. A 4th and 1 shovel pass to the fullback? Targeting Benjamin only three times, all on the first drive and then not even bothering to call his number again until garbage time? That's inexcusable. I know the dude hasn't been here long but this is football and he's a professional. At this point, they need to let him rely on his size and athleticism to make plays as opposed to waiting for him and Taylor to develop chemistry and timing. 

 

The 4th and 1 play I will absolutely give you.  Terrible call.  Targeting KB I won't.  There is NO WAY his number was not called after the 1st drive and then suddenly was called again when Peterman came in.  His number was being called - the ball was not being thrown. Tyrod was standing there for 4 seconds looking lost then checking it down to Tolbert instead.  

[Wayne Arnold]

28 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

 

Dennison hate BECAUSE he has built a system that does not fit our players. Are we this dense? Can we not wrap that around our heads? This isn't what good organizations do. 

 

The only system that fits our starting QB's skill set is Paul Johnson's Georgia Tech offense.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

The only system that fits our starting QB's skill set is Paul Johnson's Georgia Tech offense.

 

That's not really true... but there are some concepts that college spread offenses use with athletic QBs that do work.  We just don't/won't use them.

[dubs]

14 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

I know for a fact the West Coast and Zone run scheme work in the NFL

 

I agree.  I think what's happening is that once the domino of figuring out how to neutralize TT, falls then the rest of the job for the defense is a piece of cake.  Dennison wants to run an offense, but TT runs a lot of sand lot ball.  You can't run a West Coast offense when you hold onto the ball for 5 seconds.

Edited November 13, 2017 by dubs

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

I agree.  I think what's happening is that once the domino of figuring out how to neutralize TT, falls then the rest of the job for the defense is a piece of cake.  Dennison wants to run an offense, but TT runs a lot of sand lot ball.  You can't run a West Coast offense when you hold onto the ball for 5 seconds.

 

Correct.  Hard to run West Coast when your QB holds it so long.  Hard to run improvisation when you o-line can't block for long enough.  Tough on any playcaller.  

 

The TT style worked better the past two year because the line was playing better.  Not just in its pass blocking but in its run blocking to put us in more 2nd and 3rd and manageable spots.  Dennison cannot be accused of forcing his scheme on the line, especially in the run game.  They have tried to incorporate more of what Roman did as the season has gone on, but at the end of the day the players have to make the blocks.  Dennison can't make them for them.  

[ndirish1978]

15 hours ago, Perry Turtle said:

Why are you worried about what Mike Schopp says?  Beane and McDermott believe that Taylor is a starting NFL QB.  That's what we all should be worried about.

 

They started him this year instead of starting a rookie. He will not be the starting QB for long. I expect to trade some picks, draft a QB early and start him about mid-way through next season

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Correct.  Hard to run West Coast when your QB holds it so long.  Hard to run improvisation when you o-line can't block for long enough.  Tough on any playcaller.  

 

The TT style worked better the past two year because the line was playing better.  Not just in its pass blocking but in its run blocking to put us in more 2nd and 3rd and manageable spots.  Dennison cannot be accused of forcing his scheme on the line, especially in the run game.  They have tried to incorporate more of what Roman did as the season has gone on, but at the end of the day the players have to make the blocks.  Dennison can't make them for them.  

 

Right - but if based on certain formations and down/distance tendencies the defense knows what you are doing.  It becomes significantly more difficult to make said blocks.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, dneveu said:

 

Right - but if based on certain formations and down/distance tendencies the defense knows what you are doing.  It becomes significantly more difficult to make said blocks.

 

Indeed and I don't give Dennison a total pass by any means, but I think a few fans are wishfully thinking he is a bigger part of the problem than he is (and it has been proven by the misconception two weeks in a row from fans about how much we have run) because it makes it a quicker fix.  Fire Dennison and suddenly the Quarterback and the line are reborn.  I happen to think the truth is that there are much more fundamental issues on this offense.  I'd love it to just be Dennison, but as I said earlier I put him at worst 4th on the list of reasons.  

I agree, the use of personnel is a problem and agree with all the ones you sited.  But on the other hand, how do we know if its Dennison or McD who is making those personnel decisions?  So to absolve him of that is to make an assumption he has no hand in that, and I find that a stretch.  

 

I don't think in game McD is going over to Dennison and saying get Tolbert in there for McCoy and run a sweep.  I can see how McD may have say on certain guys starting, but in game use of personnel like Tolbert I think is more on Dennison than McD as he is calling the plays, and the plays usually dictate the personnel.  Its probably more of a shared issue, and again, I still think Dennison is making poor decisions in game in this regard.  

 

The moment I see fat Tolbert on the field, I am not gonna call a draw to him or screen pass to him on 3rd and 15.  So Dennison still shares in this responsibility, and probably mostly on him, in regards to in game personnel decisions in terms of use.  

 

I don't think he is and those 3rd and 15 screen are not the called plays.  Has he run a couple of conservative draws to Tolbert on 3rd down? Yep and I hate those plays they are waving the white flag.  But the reason it is Tolbert out there is because McD and Beane want him out there.  There is no question about that in my mind.... not "hey it's 1st and 10 put Mike in" but Shady signalling "I need a blow" after a screen on 1st down and then a 15 yard run for a 3 yard gain on 2nd down means they are down to their 2nd back and the reason they are down to Tolbert in that situation is because McD and Beane want him as the #2.  No question about that in my mind.  Most, but not all, of the plays I hate with Tolbert in there are when Shady has needed a blow or taken a nick and needs a play off.  

[Billsflyer12]

Rick Denniison has never be a true "OC". He was the "OC" to Mike Shanahan in Denver and Gary Kubiak in Houston and Denver.  Neither place was he the system designer or play caller.

 

So a basically new OC + a limited QB = well below average to bad offense. IMHO

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Indeed and I don't give Dennison a total pass by any means, but I think a few fans are wishfully thinking he is a bigger part of the problem than he is (and it has been proven by the misconception two weeks in a row from fans about how much we have run) because it makes it a quicker fix.  Fire Dennison and suddenly the Quarterback and the line are reborn.  I happen to think the truth is that there are much more fundamental issues on this offense.  I'd love it to just be Dennison, but as I said earlier I put him at worst 4th on the list of reasons.  

 

I don't think he is and those 3rd and 15 screen are not the called plays.  Has he run a couple of conservative draws to Tolbert on 3rd down? Yep and I hate those plays they are waving the white flag.  But the reason it is Tolbert out there is because McD and Beane want him out there.  There is no question about that in my mind.... not "hey it's 1st and 10 put Mike in" but Shady signalling "I need a blow" after a screen on 1st down and then a 15 yard run for a 3 yard gain on 2nd down means they are down to their 2nd back and the reason they are down to Tolbert in that situation is because McD and Beane want him as the #2.  No question about that in my mind.  Most, but not all, of the plays I hate with Tolbert in there are when Shady has needed a blow or taken a nick and needs a play off.  

 

For me, Dennison is a guy who has very little benefit of the doubt with his underwhelming resume.  He reminds me of Hackett, just stubborn and predictable.  I havent been this mad in game at play calling since Hackett.  So I don't know man, I think he is doing a poor job and only seems to break his predictable and poor play calling when we are up against the clock.  

 

To be fair, there are plenty of times that the players on the field aren't helping him out either with poor execution.  Whether its the OL breaking down to much, bad penalties, bad dropped passes, TT not getting the ball out or to the right spot, etc.  But, at the same time I still see just poor coaching putting us in way too many 2nd/3rd and longs as well as way too much of our better players leaving the field for inferior ones.  Look at other teams...they feed their talent...I cant think of a game where we did that this year under Dennison.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

For me, Dennison is a guy who has very little benefit of the doubt with his underwhelming resume.  He reminds me of Hackett, just stubborn and predictable.  I havent been this mad in game at play calling since Hackett.  So I don't know man, I think he is doing a poor job and only seems to break his predictable and poor play calling when we are up against the clock.  

 

To be fair, there are plenty of times that the players on the field aren't helping him out either with poor execution.  Whether its the OL breaking down to much, bad penalties, bad dropped passes, TT not getting the ball out or to the right spot, etc.  But, at the same time I still see just poor coaching putting us in way too many 2nd/3rd and longs as well as way too much of our better players leaving the field for inferior ones.  Look at other teams...they feed their talent...I cant think of a game where we did that this year under Dennison.

 

I don't think his play calling is great but I think it is right about average.  I thought he called an excellent game against Denver and a really good game against Oakland.  I don't think there was anything at all anyone could have done with the oline meltdown in the Meadowlands and while I think he was kinda average yesterday I think it's hard with poor blocking and poor Quarterback play.  Nobody has a call sheet that caters for both.  

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think his play calling is great but I think it is right about average.  I thought he called an excellent game against Denver and a really good game against Oakland.  I don't think there was anything at all anyone could have done with the oline meltdown in the Meadowlands and while I think he was kinda average yesterday I think it's hard with poor blocking and poor Quarterback play.  Nobody has a call sheet that caters for both.  

 

Well Denver and Oakland have shown to be no where near as good or a threat as once believed, so I am more concerned about the game plan against the better teams we have played where we look like a JV team at times.  

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well Denver and Oakland have shown to be no where near as good or a threat as once believed, so I am more concerned about the game plan against the better teams we have played where we look like a JV team at times.  

 

Agreed, we do.  But I honestly think that is where our talent is at the moment Alpha sadly.  Our oline includes one guy I don't think should be in the NFL, two I think are borderline NFL players (though Dawkins is still a rookie and I am far from writing him off just there is a lot of inconsistency so far) and Richie and Eric are looking their age. You know my view on our Quarterback.  We have upgraded at receiver but our offense still lacks the overall talent to go and beat the best for me.  Whoever is calling the game.  How many really good teams did the Roman and Lynn offense really beat?  It was good at winning games we should win and never looked quite as horrible as we did in New York, but I don't think the talent on that side is what we need.  

[Jrb1979]

Its not just offensive scheme, TT is not a great QB. He finally has a decent set of WRs to pass too and he is afraid to throw to anyone unless they are wide open. Sometimes you have to throw to a guy in coverage and let the WR make a play on it. Benjamin is one of the better WR making receptions in coverage and he was only targeted 3 times.

The worst play was when it was 14-3 and TT had a chance to throw it to Benjamin for a first down, he checked down and threw to McCoy for a 1 yard gain instead. That is not scheme, its bad QB play.

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I was just checking numbers on a hunch and came across something interesting. Getting the ball into the playmakers hands at WR and RB are the bread and butter of sustainability in the NFL. All the rest QB scrambles, Reverses, TE Screens, dump offs etc. are not what an offense can exist on and be successful over the long haul with. SO.......

 

Guess how many yards receiving per game the Bills Wideouts are averaging? If you said 92.0 you'd be correct. Guess what the average of the  top 5  AFC teams is (PIT NE KC JAX TEN) thats's correct 155.1. Let's also check and see how many yards rushing the RBs are getting? the Bills are getting 85.8. Guess what the other 5 teams are averaging...108.1!!!!

 

I didn't check every team because of time. But, a team with this breakdown can't succeed long-term. This unit has almost as many problems as the defense.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Its not just offensive scheme, TT is not a great QB. He finally has a decent set of WRs to pass too and he is afraid to throw to anyone unless they are wide open. Sometimes you have to throw to a guy in coverage and let the WR make a play on it. Benjamin is one of the better WR making receptions in coverage and he was only targeted 3 times.

The worst play was when it was 14-3 and TT had a chance to throw it to Benjamin for a first down, he checked down and threw to McCoy for a 1 yard gain instead. That is not scheme, its bad QB play.

 

 

We're generally worse than last years team in every statistical category.  One could say it almost has to be SOMEWHAT related to coaching... It's one of the more major offensive unit changes.  

[Jrb1979]

It is somewhat related to coaching but coaching doesn't change the play I posted. TT has almost always looked for the safest play and has been afraid to throw it unless the guy is wide open.

[Wayne Cubed]

For me, it’s a combination of things but I’m certainly not in love with the system. As Bill Belichick said last season, it’s the same exact offense as it was 15 years ago. Coaches like K. Shanahan and A. Reid have severely tweeked the WCO. Unfortunately Rico is not that guy. 

 

Dennison was not McDs first choice for an OC, it was Mike McCoy. McCoy is a much more adaptable OC. He’s had different offenses for Orton, Tebow, Manning and Rivers. 

 

I honslty hope hope he’s not around when the Bills draft a QB.