GunnerBill Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, mannc said: I agree with all of this except the first half of your last sentence. Cousins’s numbers the last 3 years suggest that he is at least as good as a healthy Andrew Luck; he just lacks the number one overall pick pedigree. Depends what numbers you look at to an extent. Luck's numbers last year were very good. 31 TDs to 13 picks as against 25 TDs to 12 picks. Luck had a stinker in 2015 when I never felt he was even nearly healthy but beyond that the numbers simply do not support the criticism that he seems to get from people on this board. EDIT: Nor do they support the notion that Luck is elite either.... but then I don't know who has tried to make that argument. Edited November 9, 2017 by GunnerBill
mannc Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Depends what numbers you look at to an extent. Luck's numbers last year were very good. 31 TDs to 13 picks as against 25 TDs to 12 picks. Luck had a stinker in 2015 when I never felt he was even nearly healthy but beyond that the numbers simply do not support the criticism that he seems to get from people on this board. EDIT: Nor do they support the notion that Luck is elite either.... but then I don't know who has tried to make that argument. Yes, it depends what numbers you look at. Cousins had a slightly higher YPA and Luck was sacked almost twice as much. The point is, there isn’t much reason to prefer even a healthy Luck to Cousins.
Captain Hindsight Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 On 11/7/2017 at 11:38 AM, BigPappy said: I'll take a pass on Luck. I don't think he is all that people think he is. He has struggled even with decent support around him. Add on the shoulder, and i say no thanks. If he was 100%, hed be top 5 easy. He is a cut above. Saw him play in Indy in his rookie year. He's awesome
oldmanfan Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Dunno where we sign up,, but wherever it is, we should sprint there with a pack of 12 pens in case 11 are dry. The shoulder is a concern. The contract too. But your other points aren't really legit. One injury isn't injury-prone. He missed zero games in his first three years. His only injury is this one. They should have got him surgery immediately. And he was out-performing the hype till this injury. As for a turnover machine, he's a bit of a gunslinger, so you take that risk, but he's also a TD machine. Yeah, he gets huge money. He was very much worth it up till the injury. You've got two points there, not five. Yup, he's injured but plenty of QBs have come back from that surgery and performed well. Still, it's a risk. And yeah he's got a very high salary. Excellent QBs generally end up getting one and they're still very much worth it. I'd snap him up in a second, and I think all but about eight or ten teams that already have strong franchise guys would do the same. Agree with going after him but to clarify he did have a lacerated kidney prior to his shoulder injury that caused him to miss a lot of one season?
ndirish1978 Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 17 hours ago, Augie said: That’s fair, but I think he sizzled 11 wins out of 4 win teams. To each their own. I hope he gets healthy regardless. (I also hope Irsay gets a buzz on and trades him to us for peanuts.) I'm not saying he's bad. I'm simply saying we were led to believe he was the next great QB and that hasn't been the case.
Augie Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 1 minute ago, ndirish1978 said: I'm not saying he's bad. I'm simply saying we were led to believe he was the next great QB and that hasn't been the case. The expectation bar was certainly set very, very high! That’s for sure.
BigPappy Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Captain Hindsight said: If he was 100%, hed be top 5 easy. He is a cut above. Saw him play in Indy in his rookie year. He's awesome I know he's said to have all the tools to be an elite QB (I personally never really was impressed), and he has had issues with supporting cast, but to quote many on here as saying "elite QB's make things happen with what they have" I just wouldn't risk the draft picks to trade for him given the serious questions regarding his shoulder.
3rdand12 Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said: I'm not saying he's bad. I'm simply saying we were led to believe he was the next great QB and that hasn't been the case. I feel this a tough call. Due to context. Colts staff did Luck few favors after they drafted him till today even. Seems to me, On Owner goes to that much blatant effort to score the Kid. Why wouldn't the focus then turn directly to protecting him? Luck could have been much more than he has shown. Methinks Colts pissed this guys best years away. Kinda irks me, and one of the reasons I feel Irsay has no clue. did not have one and will never get one imho ; )
Alphadawg7 Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, jmc12290 said: I guess I've never seen anybody put Luck in the top 4. Potentially, sure, but not there already. And I don't know if I've ever called him ELITE. I'm also really confused. You DO place him in the top 12, with guys like Stafford (definitely worse than Luck statistically, worse TD:INT ratio, worse W-L ratio), Cousins (also statistically inferior, worst TD:INT, worse W-L), and Carr (a comparable TD:INT but a worse W-L). And that's fine, honestly. I get there's some wiggle room and eye test and all that. But can you honestly say Luck wasn't playing up to his contract, when Stafford and Carr are making more and Cousins is holding out to join them? And then you say, "it's too long to be talking about potential," moments after talking about how Smith flew up the rankings after being drafted 11 years ago. These QB ratings are fluid, is my point. Luck's getting paid a lot, sure. He doesn't have a lot of financial risk. But if he came back and replicated 2014 on the 2018 Buffalo Bills, exact same numbers, exact same record, and an AFCCG appearance, would you still call him overrated? I would call him worth every penny, because that's what you have to do to keep QB's around with that level of talent and potential these days. Well rankings change year to year and my list took this years performance into consideration as well.. Second, you said a healthy Luck, which he obviously is not right now. I wouldn't actually put Luck as is in the top 12 right now. And some guys resume prior to this year get them some credibility while others upside get them those slots. Lets remember what triggered our dialogue. I said Luck is overrated and has one of the worst contracts in football right now. And I still stand firmly by that for the reasons I have already laid out. He is turnover prone (105 in 76 games), poor postseason personal performance substantially lower than his regular seasons in each of those years, and his injury situation which is going to continue to be a big risk moving forward due to his style of play. I havent called him a bum, or a bad QB, etc. Just that he is overrated, especially by how some talk about him here, and he has a lot to still prove. I do find it interesting that so many people make a massive list of excuses for him, yet when someone points out factual impacts to Tyrods situation those same people just call them excuses, even when they are substantially more valid than the very ones they make for Luck. Edited November 9, 2017 by Alphadawg7 1
BigBuff423 Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 19 hours ago, MAJBobby said: Because it does mean nothing. Each person is different. And i say 10 year minimum just like others say he is done. Also there is nothing also saying what it will take to get him. With the Owner publically calling him out it hurts any return they think they can get. Add the INJ lowers value as well. Who is to say Indy wont take a 2nd to get out of the contract in year they are likely picking high and can take a QB. So you would not take Andrew Luck for the Late 1st rounf pick that is what you are teling me Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you. You mentioned a 2nd, in that case presuming he's healthy, and considering the Bills have 2, sure...don't like it, but I could live with it based on risk-reward. However, I can Draft a QB like Mayfield or Finley, and coach and develop them, and have all the other things I mentioned in this discussion several posts ago. So, for ME, and I'm only speaking for ME, that's what I'd do...I take the younger, more malleable, less damaged product and build a winner around him with all my Draft capital and FA money for 2018. I make him like a sort of Dak, in that I build the Offensive line, grab a great RB in 2nd or 3rd round, and allow him to develop without the risk of the unknown injury or age involved.
ndirish1978 Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 30 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said: I feel this a tough call. Due to context. Colts staff did Luck few favors after they drafted him till today even. Seems to me, On Owner goes to that much blatant effort to score the Kid. Why wouldn't the focus then turn directly to protecting him? Luck could have been much more than he has shown. Methinks Colts pissed this guys best years away. Kinda irks me, and one of the reasons I feel Irsay has no clue. did not have one and will never get one imho ; ) Context is king, I agree.
Captain Hindsight Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 37 minutes ago, BigPappy said: I know he's said to have all the tools to be an elite QB (I personally never really was impressed), and he has had issues with supporting cast, but to quote many on here as saying "elite QB's make things happen with what they have" I just wouldn't risk the draft picks to trade for him given the serious questions regarding his shoulder. Oh me either. But if he was healthy, I'd be all over that He took a 2-14 team and went 11-5 three seasons in a row. Luck is an excellent QB
MAJBobby Posted November 9, 2017 Posted November 9, 2017 21 hours ago, mannc said: C'mon Bobby. In a world where AJ McCarron is ostensibly worth a second and a third, the only way Indy would trade Luck for a late first or second is if his shoulder is a mess, in which case he probably won't pass a physical. Neither you nor I has any idea if Luck's shoulder problem is a temporary setback (like Brees's) or is career ending (like some are speculating). But to sort of answer your question, I'd much rather sign Kirk Cousins to a lucrative F/A deal than trade a first round pick for Luck, especially with the question marks regarding Luck's health. AJ McCarron did not net anything. Just saying and if there is a legitimate issue between the Owner and Luck absolutely they could sell him cheap. And i dont get the love for Cousins that so many have of him
Dopey Posted November 15, 2017 Posted November 15, 2017 On 11/8/2017 at 11:11 AM, Augie said: Are you tailgating somewhere? Live in FL and made the Atlanta game. Maybe next season.
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