Official fire Rick Dennison thread

[Rochesterfan]

On 11/29/2017 at 12:11 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Wait, are you actually saying that Taylor is calling the offensive plays in the second half?

 

Right. We called 9 passes.

 

26 passes called in the 1st half.

 

9 in the 2nd half.

 

 

Once again - your entire concept is way way off and you are pushing blame away from TT for some reason.

 

Yes there was a massive discrepancy in passing plays first half to second half, but there was also a massive difference in total plays.

 

First half we ran around 46 plays with about 26 drop backs per your analysis.  Just over 50%.

Second half we had 9 drop backs on 24 play - with the last 5 plays the Bills either running out the clock or kneeling.  Take those away and it is 9 drop backs on about 19 actual snaps or just under 50% of the snaps.

 

The difference was the play in TT in the second half on 3rd down.  In the first half he was 6 of 8 passing on 3rd down with several first downs to keep drives going.

 

The second half TT was 1 for 2 with a sack on 3rd down and no first downs.  He did not keep drives going and therefore we had fewer overall plays.  He had people open - the scheme of Dennison worked, but TT went back into his conservative shell the 2nd half and played poorly when we could of blown out the Chiefs.

 

I think that Dennison may be a bit conservative, but overall TT is exactly the same QB as he has been - the only difference in offense is the running game and it is hard to know how much is Dennison and how much is the combination of O-line changes and play.

 

TT is exactly what he has been and all of your many threads on TT do not change that.  He is a below level starter that will not turn the ball over. That is not the worst thing, but if that is the best you can say about your starting QB - you need to be looking for better.  TT can win with a strong defense, a strong running game, and good special teams play so that he can move your team and not give the ball back to the opponents.  He is not a viable long term option and he is not a high end starter.  He will not win you games and he will not lose you games.  He is just there as a place holder until someone gets the guts to try and get better.  

[Bills Analyst]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Think it'll work against Tom Brady on Sunday if we manage to go ahead by a couple scores?

 

Well you if we are up by 10 anytime in the 2nd half,  then something is going surprisingly well.  So it just might work.

 

Even if it didn’t,  this “strategy” will still be 3-1 which I would take.  As long as they can get up by 10 which is a huge challenge  He way this years team has been playing th first quarter.

[simool]

I have a hard time believing this topic has 9 pages of discussion.  McDermott not lasting? This is not a scenario that is based in reality, he has several more years easily. 

 

McDermott also does not strike me as an impatient guy, so I think the odds are in Dennison's favor that he gets another shot. But really, in the grand scheme of things you have *zero* control over this situation and you have none of the necessary information to even surmise a rational opinion on it.  Why bother?

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Once again - your entire concept is way way off and you are pushing blame away from TT for some reason.

 

Yes there was a massive discrepancy in passing plays first half to second half, but there was also a massive difference in total plays.

 

First half we ran around 46 plays with about 26 drop backs per your analysis.  Just over 50%.

Second half we had 9 drop backs on 24 play - with the last 5 plays the Bills either running out the clock or kneeling.  Take those away and it is 9 drop backs on about 19 actual snaps or just under 50% of the snaps.

 

The difference was the play in TT in the second half on 3rd down.  In the first half he was 6 of 8 passing on 3rd down with several first downs to keep drives going.

 

The second half TT was 1 for 2 with a sack on 3rd down and no first downs.  He did not keep drives going and therefore we had fewer overall plays.  He had people open - the scheme of Dennison worked, but TT went back into his conservative shell the 2nd half and played poorly when we could of blown out the Chiefs.

 

I think that Dennison may be a bit conservative, but overall TT is exactly the same QB as he has been - the only difference in offense is the running game and it is hard to know how much is Dennison and how much is the combination of O-line changes and play.

 

TT is exactly what he has been and all of your many threads on TT do not change that.  He is a below level starter that will not turn the ball over. That is not the worst thing, but if that is the best you can say about your starting QB - you need to be looking for better.  TT can win with a strong defense, a strong running game, and good special teams play so that he can move your team and not give the ball back to the opponents.  He is not a viable long term option and he is not a high end starter.  He will not win you games and he will not lose you games.  He is just there as a place holder until someone gets the guts to try and get better.  

 

 I realize this has turned into a TT discussion, but truthfully this my biggest issue is with what's happened particularly to our running game because of Denison. Shady is having The worst year of his NFL career because it obvious where and when he's running on almost any play that he runs.

 

Now, is the TT discussion connected to that ineffective running game? Absolutely. This team is constantly in third and 8 and 3rd and 9 and third and 10 situations because of runs that are stuffed on first and/or second down.

 

But we have one of the best running back's in the NFL and he's gaining less than 4 yards per carry. That's just pathetic when you consider what he averaged the last couple years.

 

As for Taylor in Kansas City, I'm not complaining about it and don't really feel the need to defend his play there because it was a pretty good game by him.

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by transplantbillsfan

[kota]

On 11/28/2017 at 9:38 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

no matter who he has at QB: he/they is/are uber conservative on offense.

Contrary to popular belief, the Bills pretty consistently do establish the pass early in games, it's just they don't stick with it once they get a lead because they want to run out the clock.
 
This is why I want to bang my head against a wall with some people who adamantly argue that Taylor isn't a serious contributor to these wins and people who argue that any other QB who comes in will just automatically fix things and be better.
 
It's like people don't bother watching games and just look at the box score in the end.

 

Just look at passing in 1st half of the KC game vs passing in the 2nd half.
 
1st half
15/24 for 121 yards and 1 TD

 

0 sacks 

 

2 scrambles for 13 yards 

 

0 passes called back on penalties 

 

26 total passing plays for 134 total yards
 
We went into the half up by 10 points: 13-3
 
2nd half
4/5 for 62 yards

 

2 sacks minus 19 yards 

 

2 scrambles for 12 yards 

 

9 total passing plays for 55 total yards
 
 
There's an ebb and flow to the conservative way McDermott and Dennison call their plays.  In a game where we're behind, Taylor passes significantly more, in a game we're tied, Taylor passes less, in a 1 score game with the lead, even less, and in a 2 score game, we pass a lot less.
 
The Bills went up by 2 scores (10 points) just under 3 minutes into the 2nd quarter.  Up to that point, Taylor threw 16 passes in 27 plays. 59% passing rate.
 
Then the Bills went up by 2 scores and on their next drive and he only threw 3 passes on 12 plays. 25% passing rate.
 
Then the Chiefs kicked a FG and came within 1 score and the Bills got the ball back with less than 2 minutes and Taylor threw 6 passes in 7 plays to lead the team to a FG to go up by 10 points. 86% passing rate.
 
 
Then 5 passes in the 2nd half.
 
On the entire year, only 71 of Taylor's 308 passes this year have come when the Bills have been leading, but only 12 of those passes have come when this team has been up by 2 or more scores (9 points or more). 

 

There's only one other NFL QB who's thrown 4 times more total passes than number of passes from behind:

 

Mithchell Trubisky with the head coach John Foxx, a notoriously conservative Head Coach.

 

And before you just automatically point the finger at Trubisky, take a look at the Colts with Jacoby Brissett, who had thrown almost exactly as many passes from ahead as he has from behind.

 

 
We've run 76 offensive plays up by 9 points or more. He's thrown the ball just 15.8% of the plays we've been up by that much.

 

You just don't find other QBs with such a low %.
 
We've run 688 total offensive plays... 612 have been with us trailing or tied or up by only one score. 296 of those plays have been passes.

( now I realize that there are also designed passing plays that are not reflected in those passes such as sacks and scrambles, but that's a lot more work than I'm willing to do at this moment  ) 
 
When "it's a game," there's clearly a plan to throw the ball as Taylor actually throws the ball 48.4% of the time. Designed passes will be well above 50% and maybe close to 60% when you find all the sacks and scrambles that happened in those 612 plays when we were trailing, tied, or up by one score.
 
When the Bills have a solid lead, he only throws it 15.8% of the friggin time!

I understand that there are probably going to be some who point to how little faith our OC and HC have and Taylor and that this reflects that, but it really doesn't make much sense for a team as ineffective in the running game as we are (we had 16/26 runs by RBs against KC for gains of one yard or less) when you have a QB who will obviously protect the football and not turn it over.
 
We are very likely going to have a new QB under center next season. I don't know why anyone would have any confidence in our OC (and even HC?) in terms of our approach to the games and how effective our QB would be.

It's called half time adjustments.

[BillsVet]

27 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

 I realize this has turned into a TT discussion, but truthfully this my biggest issue is with what's happened particularly to our running game because of Denison. Shady is having The worst year of his NFL career because it obvious where and when he's running on almost any play that he runs.

 

Now, is the TT discussion connected to that ineffective running game? Absolutely. This team is constantly in third and 8 and 3rd and 9 and third and 10 situations because of runs that are stuffed on first and/or second down.

 

But we have one of the best running back's in the NFL and he's gaining less than 4 yards per carry. That's just pathetic when you consider what he averaged the last couple years.

 

As for Taylor in Kansas City, I'm not complaining about it and don't really feel the need to defend his play there because it was a pretty good game by him.

 

 

 

 

McCoy is a RB in his 9th season with more than 2,500 touches in his career. When backs go, they go quickly and that could be happening here. He is 29 and the only RBs in the top 20 for rushing older than McCoy are LeGarrette Blount and Frank Gore.

 

The running game isn't less than stellar for just 1 reason. It's McCoy, it's the (aging and ineffective) OL, and perhaps the scheme but certainly not one thing. Players get old and there are injuries (significant and less significant).

 

I always laugh when people see the team not winning and emphatically declare it's one thing wrong and usually that's a coach who needs to be fired. This is usually the first cause cited. Blaming players is a distant second, and of course, front office management is almost never identified.

 

It's also funny to hear people cite the 2015 and 2016 offenses as if we can simply replicate those seasons because we have largely the same type of personnel.  Again, guys are older, teams have advanced scouting on players, and you therefore don't get a free pass to do the same things without someone gearing up to stop it. Besides, running the ball is something out of the stone age, i.e. the 1970s-1990s. No one's winning with a run dominated offense and at best those teams are average anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by BillsVet

[transplantbillsfan]

9 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Seriously? I'm wrong? You don't have a clue (you got that right, actually) about where I'm geting my information from? That's pretty sad, Transplant. Typical, but sad.

 

Why? Why do you not know where I got that? Seriously, why?

 

Here's what you said about the place where I found that. You said, "This is a really nice find, Hap." A page or two back. In this thread.

 

It's in the article about ALEX that Happy Days posted and you replied to and repeated the link.

 

I shouldn't be surprised. That's your typical method, isn't it? Find something. Look for the part that might be used to cast a good light on Tyrod. And then ignore or forget the rest. I shouldn't be surprised, 

 

So I got all of them right. Again, the short ones are the ones he's converting. 10th in the league when they're 1 or 2 yards, 14th when they're 3 or 4 yards and 17th when longer. The longer they are the further down the list he slips in percentage of success. And again, from the same article, 29th out of 38 QBs this year in terms of ALEX. Only 11 guys averaged throwing less than as far as the sticks on third down. Tyrod was one of these 11.

 

Yes, seriously, you were wrong with your 3rd down numbers.

 

Thurm, I'm going to take you on a little journey of the conversation you and I had that led you to this careless mistake:

 

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 5:36 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

And yet, Taylor has having his best year so far in converting those third downs even though they're usually third and long on average. 

 

First, there was this post, which was built within a larger post, but this was the ONLY part of the post you responded to:

 

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 1:59 AM, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

The short ones are the ones he's converting. 10th in the league when they're 1 or 2 yards, 14th when they're 3 or 4 yards and 17th when longer.

 

Then, you replied with this.  Clearly you were referring to the Footballoutsiders ranking in that had him ranked 29th in ALEX as of November 17th and also provides you with a chart giving you 3rd and short, 3rd and medium, and 3rd and long rankings.  And by the way, you didn't even cite your yardage correctly considering it says directly in the article: "Like in past years, I have provided a "heat map" to show how the quarterbacks stack up in the different third-down splits: short (1 or 2 yards to go), medium (3 to 6 yards) and long (7-plus yards)."  Plus...

 

ALL OF THIS IS FROM WEEK 10.

 

 

 

Sheesh... you criticize me for reading the article, which I admit I didn't other than the bits about ALEX and Tyrod Taylor.  Did you read it?

 

This was my post responding to your statement that those were his 3rd down conversion rankings by range:

 

21 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Not a clue where you're getting your information from, but the only one you got right is that he's 10th when they're 1 or 2 yards.

 

He's 8th from 3-7 yards.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&rank=048&type=Passing&year=2017

 

He's 15th when 8+ yards.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFL&rank=047&type=Passing&year=2017

 

And by the way, Taylor is currently tied for 24th in ALEX.  He's not 29th.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

 

Thank you for playing

 

 

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

McCoy is a RB in his 9th season with more than 2,500 touches in his career. When backs go, they go quickly and that could be happening here. He is 29 and the only RBs in the top 20 for rushing older than McCoy are LeGarrette Blount and Frank Gore.

 

The running game isn't less than stellar for just 1 reason. It's McCoy, it's the (aging and ineffective) OL, and perhaps the scheme but certainly not one thing. Players get old and there are injuries (significant and less significant).

 

I always laugh when people see the team not winning and emphatically declare it's one thing wrong and usually that's a coach who needs to be fired. This is usually the first cause cited. Blaming players is a distant second, and of course, front office management is almost never identified.

 

It's also funny to hear people cite the 2015 and 2016 offenses as if we can simply replicate those seasons because we have largely the same type of personnel.  Again, guys are older, teams have advanced scouting on players, and you therefore don't get a free pass to do the same things without someone gearing up to stop it. Besides, running the ball is something out of the stone age, i.e. the 1970s-1990s. No one's winning with a run dominated offense and at best those teams are average anyway.

 

 

So McCoy looks like he's slowed down to you?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 ? 

[BringBackOrton]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Give me a break.

 

Eli is having an AWFUL season because he has a bad offensive line, no running game and scrub WRs. 

 

Sound familiar? 

 

 

Except Eli isn't.

[Bing Bong]

I hope Beane doesn't hesitate to pull the trigger on McDermott if necessary. They seem attached at the hip to me, for better or worse. 

[xRUSHx]

So this thread lives on, SMH.

 

So after reading this thread only because the OP continues to push it be on the front page I see some think that McCoy is only good because of Tyrod, other players are only good because of Tyrod and the coaching staff is only good when Tyrod is used correctly. It is always everyone elses fault when the team fails to win the big games. Tyrod is a future HOF QB if only we could find some staff that could make him one. Compare him to other greats of the game and he shines. Look at these cherry picked stats that prop him up.

 

The last staff got fired not because Tyrod did not lead the team to victory but because the D and the coaching staff failed. Now this staff is a fail because the OC, the D and the coaching staff failed while Tyrod is not being used correctly. This staff needs to be fired and Tyrod needs to be brought back and given a raise. He is such a good QB that his bridge of a scheme is perfect for a young QB to be groomed behind because the Taylor made scheme is one that has longevity it is not high schoolish like some think.  

 

I do have one question if Tyrod is so good how come he did not get the same type of support from his last team that groomed him for 4 straight seasons and how come his last team was the team that showed the NFL how to put Tyrod in his place, make him be a QB ? Tyrod was not good enough to unseat Flacco, think about that for a minute. Sure Flacco has done more but he is not all that when it comes to be a great QB. Is he a sure fire HOF QB or a QB people put on there fantasy teams? At his age and decline dont you think a young hot QB should have taken his job? Tyrod has had 3 OCs that have tried with him and by seasons end have failed everytime. Sure it is the OC at fault, time to hire OC #4 because maybe the 4th one will figure out Tyrods greatness. SMH

 

IMO its time to move on from Rex's choice at QB, it is time to get Rex out of our headlines talking about his QB.

 

Baltimore trained him to play as a backup exactly how he plays, as a backup. Sugar coat his stats all you want but in the end his stats line up like Trents did a fail and a sham. This staff deserves a fresh start because IMO the QB, the leader is the reason this offense fails every season by seasons end.

 

Will we get a new era next season or will the headlines remain the same?

Edited December 2, 2017 by xRUSHx

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, xRUSHx said:

So this thread lives on, SMH.

 

So after reading this thread only because the OP continues to push it be on the front page I see some think that McCoy is only good because of Tyrod, other players are only good because of Tyrod and the coaching staff is only good when Tyrod is used correctly. It is always everyone elses fault when the team fails to win the big games. Tyrod is a future HOF QB if only we could find some staff that could make him one. Compare him to other greats of the game and he shines. Look at these cherry picked stats that prop him up.

 

The last staff got fired not because Tyrod did not lead the team to victory but because the D and the coaching staff failed. Now this staff is a fail because the OC, the D and the coaching staff failed while Tyrod is not being used correctly. This staff needs to be fired and Tyrod needs to be brought back and given a raise. He is such a good QB that his bridge of a scheme is perfect for a young QB to be groomed behind because the Taylor made scheme is one that has longevity it is not high schoolish like some think.  

 

I do have one question if Tyrod is so good how come he did not get the same type of support from his last team that groomed him for 4 straight seasons and how come his last team was the team that showed the NFL how to put Tyrod in his place, make him be a QB ? Tyrod was not good enough to unseat Flacco, think about that for a minute. Sure Flacco has done more but he is not all that when it comes to be a great QB. Is he a sure fire HOF QB or a QB people put on there fantasy teams? At his age and decline dont you think a young hot QB should have taken his job? Tyrod has had 3 OCs that have tried with him and by seasons end have failed everytime. Sure it is the OC at fault, time to hire OC #4 because maybe the 4th one will figure out Tyrods greatness. SMH

 

IMO its time to move on from Rex's choice at QB, it is time to get Rex out of our headlines talking about his QB.

 

Baltimore trained him to play as a backup exactly how he plays, as a backup. Sugar coat his stats all you want but in the end his stats line up like Trents did a fail and a sham. This staff deserves a fresh start because IMO the QB, the leader is the reason this offense fails every season by seasons end.

 

Will we get a new era next season or will the headlines remain the same?

 

Absolutely NO ONE is saying ANY of the things you said in those 2 paragraphs.

 

 

This is just one of the dumbest posts I've ever read... so congratulations!!! You've unseated a post by....

 

 

well...

 

 

probably you.

 

 

 

 

I was fine letting this post die and was going to let the issue rest, but man... I just had to respond to the sheer stupidity of these 2 paragraphs. I couldn't even read beyond them.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

 

I was fine letting this post die

As OP you may be able to lock it or you could as the OP ask a mod to lock it. 

[WIDE LEFT]

Numerous issues with his play calling, but I will concede that the head coach has a lot more input into the types of calls any OC makes. A conservative, defensive minded head coach will insist on conservative play calls. Having said that, Dennison earns poor marks as an OC regardless of HC input. The biggest red flag, the most obvious indicator of his incompetence should be apparent to even the casual fan. An OC generally scripts the first 10 to 15 play calls in any game. He had all week to review film, identify play calls that should work and script the calls accordingly. It’s the beginning of the game where OC has most input. And yet the Bills offense has been terrible in the first quarter, almost historically bad. Very little production, very few points. This is on Dennison. The other time an OC has a lot of input is the beginning of second half. You have the whole halftime to review what the other defense has been doing, and adjust accordingly. The Bills offense has been HORRIBLE when starting second half, even worse than beginning of game. Three & out virtually every time they have received the kickoff to start third quarter. The play calls have been unimaginative and completely unproductive. This screams out that our OC is in over his head. His offense is least productive when he has the MOST input.

 

[Teddy KGB]

3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

This is just one of the dumbest posts I've ever read... so congratulations!!! You've unseated a post by....

 

 

well...

 

 

probably you.

 

.

 

Dumber than the one where the guy said McDermott won't last long because our qb's are ?? 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

8 minutes ago, WIDE LEFT said:

Numerous issues with his play calling, but I will concede that the head coach has a lot more input into the types of calls any OC makes. A conservative, defensive minded head coach will insist on conservative play calls. Having said that, Dennison earns poor marks as an OC regardless of HC input. The biggest red flag, the most obvious indicator of his incompetence should be apparent to even the casual fan. An OC generally scripts the first 10 to 15 play calls in any game. He had all week to review film, identify play calls that should work and script the calls accordingly. It’s the beginning of the game where OC has most input. And yet the Bills offense has been terrible in the first quarter, almost historically bad. Very little production, very few points. This is on Dennison. The other time an OC has a lot of input is the beginning of second half. You have the whole halftime to review what the other defense has been doing, and adjust accordingly. The Bills offense has been HORRIBLE when starting second half, even worse than beginning of game. Three & out virtually every time they have received the kickoff to start third quarter. The play calls have been unimaginative and completely unproductive. This screams out that our OC is in over his head. His offense is least productive when he has the MOST input.

 

 

...as I said in another thread, Management 101 dictates that" you can delegate the task(s), but you can NEVER delegate the overall responsibility"....thus Dennison has been delegated the task of the offense as OC and Frazier the task of the defense as DC.....yet McD is STILL held to overall responsibility.....can't tell me he is not aware of the dismal offensive situation.....so he must condone it.........failed leadership IMO.......the "tail is wagging the dog".....

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...as I said in another thread, Management 101 dictates that" you can delegate the task(s), but you can NEVER delegate the overall responsibility"....thus Dennison has been delegated the task of the offense as OC and Frazier the task of the defense as DC.....yet McD is STILL held to overall responsibility.....can't tell me he is not aware of the dismal offensive situation.....so he must condone it.........failed leadership IMO.......the "tail is wagging the dog".....

I'm fairly certain he IS aware of the dismal offensive situation. He has spoken about it -- and the need to improve on offense -- numerous times. He also tried to assuage the issue by changing quarterbacks (which obviously didn't work). There have also been numerous changes to the offense week-to-week, from moving away from outside zone to gap running, to adding RPOs, to adding more called QB runs. The results have obviously not been up to snuff. But to say that McDermott isn't aware of or "condones" the poor offensive production is a real stretch.

[Teddy KGB]

Problem is our qb and right side of ol.  

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

13 minutes ago, Logic said:

I'm fairly certain he IS aware of the dismal offensive situation. He has spoken about it -- and the need to improve on offense -- numerous times. He also tried to assuage the issue by changing quarterbacks (which obviously didn't work). There have also been numerous changes to the offense week-to-week, from moving away from outside zone to gap running, to adding RPOs, to adding more called QB runs. The results have obviously not been up to snuff. But to say that McDermott isn't aware of or "condones" the poor offensive production is a real stretch.

 

...but haven't there been some successes, which seemed to get abandoned even though successful?.....correct me if I'm wrong......thanks..............

[Jerome007]

At least he was opened to players input at one time earlier in the year and the offense improved right away. He (they) should listen to their players more! And tailor the plays around Taylor(doh) and the players, instead of forcing them to fit a damn system.